It would be more polite if the person wanting to say the prayer had regard for the fact the majority of people in the audience would not normally prayer and, more than that, many of them might be secular. It's not a massive deal but including people who do not wish to do so in prayer is not exactly returning the respect for their beliefs that you are expecting they should give to yours.
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Does power tend to corrupt, as Lord Acton famously claims (although bare in mind that he was a Gladstonian liberal and so had that axe to grind), or does it simply illustrate who we were all along?
I think organisations like the police will attract people who aren't the most suitable for the job they have to do. I think the power that comes with being in the Police would appeal to many who join for the wrong reasons. To others the protecting the power of the establishment over the general public would be a big reason for not joining the police.
The police do have problems, but it takes a special kind of twisted to cheer the sort of lunatic who goes around shooting coppers at random (as if collective "punishment" were appropriate for the failings of other police officers).
I think it's more a lack of intelligence and tribal way of thinking. Lots of people, in poor area's I guess, are brought up to hate the police without much thought as to why. I'm not sure how much going back to an old style police will actually do to change the corrupting effect of power.
For which the penalty generally isn't death by gunfire, though.
No and Moat was wrong as far as I'm concerned. However I don't think there are very many penalties for the police. When it comes down to it if the police are harassing you there's not very much you can do to protect yourself from them which is wrong and justifiably leads to folk hating the police. My sister is in this situation just now and the police are trying to destroy her business which supports her and her kids all because of who her dad used to be. Arseholes!Quote
which may account for the 'shower of cnuts' becoming somewhat fracious about encouraging messages being left on Facebook.
The police as an organisation need to look at themselves and find it what it is they have been doing that causes people feel sympathy for a maniac over them. They're sympathy is misguided and but a mistrust of the police is, from my experience, justified and sensible.
Not sticking up for Moat but have to be honest in that in nearly all my dealings with the police they have pretty consistently been a shower of cunts.
There was a woman giving a talk about Irish witchcraft that I attended. She believed in and claimed to have had dealings with the Sidhe which is gaelic for faeries basically. She would visit prehistoric sites and leave offerings and she found the sidhe present in these places particularly. Mind you she had visited Tara and said that the place was dead and they had left that site now. She also spoke about how she used to sit inside burial mounds meditating at night and this was how she had her first encounter with the Morrigan. It was interesting to listen to her talk and her passion for Celtic history and folklore appealed to me but personally the thought of sitting in a dark damp terrifies would make me more concerned about having an encounter with a massive spider rather than the Morrigan if she exists. She had written a book called Irish Witchcraft by and Irish Witch but I can't remember her name.
I think hating the police and army as whole is a bit of a sweeping statement. They are not all bad...
No not they're not all bad it's true. But the police as an organisation I just do not trust. Both the police and the army, I feel, are now there to serve the state and the establishment rather than there to protect us. I don't hate the individual soldiers and if the armed forces was a responsible organisation there to protect people who really need it I think I would have more respect for them. After what happened in Iraq I think that should be a warning to folk considering joining the forces of what they can end up mixed up in ie criminal wars that are furthering agendas which not only aren't for our protection but actually making us targets for terrorism. Where's your loyalty to your country then? That said most of my mates in the forces joined to get a decent job.
What can we do about this? Time and again, living in this country, I just feel like we're powerless to change anything.
Why is the assumption that the wee folk, if they exist, would be "nice"? Have people not read the folklore.....
In our folklore some are nice, like the broonie, but most of them are tricky. Still would love it if they were real though.
Except we are talking about Islam and Muslims, not Christians and the Bible per se And the expressed point of the quran is to give guidance "in clear language" so that all know exactly what Allah requires of them.
Technically aye but at the same time all Christianity should come from Christ's teachings which are in the bible so I don't see how it's all that different from Islam and the Quran. I mean my mum spends a lot of time reading the bible and going to bible study every week and she's a Christian and she thinks that is the right way to be a Christian. My step dad would say he's a christian but doesn't spend time reading the bible. It's two different types of Christianity same as you will people who approach Islam differently.Quote
Just to clarify, what do you mean by "fundamentalist", as what I mean by the term are those people to whom their scriptures are "fundamental" (that is, they are essentially the "manual for all matters of life" - the "Human Handbook", so to speak).
Well my interpretation of fundamentalist is taking the bible literally. It's not metaphor but a historical, factual record. This was what led me away from being a practising Christian because I couldn't understand how the bible could be fact when so much of it had been proven wrong.
I want them to be real and hope they are. I'm open minded I guess.
There's no harm in and only good intentions. When I was younger and angrier I would have been more pissed off but really, where's the harm?
I'm a doctor
I try to make people well if they are ill, and I can put plasters on them and everything, but I'm not interested in all that other doctoring stuff that it says in books, and not bothered about being a "good" doctor. Its what is in my heart that matters.
That's not comparing like with like either though. If God is real then only he can really judge if someone is a Christian. They might not attend services or read the bible but they could still have Jesus in their heart. Before people could read and the bible was published in English there were still people who worshiped and loved Christ regardless. I don't think it's as clean cut as your saying although I understand your point.
I went to a mainstream Church of Scotland and I was never taught anything other than it was the actual word of God. That was what led me to stop believing in it all really. Even at the so called non denominational school I went to we were taught the bible as history. I'm not sure if it was blatant fundamentalism. It didn't seem like that to me at the time and CoS is the sort of regular mainstream church up here. There were people that were fundamentalist within the church but I think that was people who had not long joined and were overly enthusiastic. That said I know my mum and step dad etc just accept a lot of the things in the bible that I don't understand why they don't question. Is it fundamentalism or faith? I dunno.
Provoking a Hare Krishna to wrath must be quite an accomplishment! I'd put that on my C.V. if I were you!
I've always found them to be quite cheeky or passive aggressive in my experience. It always pisses me off how they tell me I'm living a bad, materialist life and then they have the bloody cheek to ask me for money.
Thatll be why so few rapes are reported/avenged and even fewer get convictions then wont it
And we do have a flippin 'patriarchal society' however much some people want to deny it because thats been our history and the power in this country is still held by men.Its just fact not something to get twisted knickers about.And it *is* a factor in a legal system that can still blame a female child for being 'provocative' and bring up a womens sexual history in a rape case when that usually has sod all to do with the crime in question.Do burglary victims get questioned about whether they used to leave their windows ajar on summer nights so were clearly the sort to 'ask for it'? It might be uncomfortable to admit when we like to think of our society as 'advanced' but tough,we wont change anything by ignoring that aspect so while I'm not usually hot on the whole 'feminist agenda',and have nothing against 'men' this *is* something I will argue till the cows come home because its reality for many,many ordinary women like me who are unable/unwilling to report attacks because of the bullshit the legal system puts us through from start to finish.A legal system designed by men of the past when things were much more patriarchal than now,thats barely been changed in this area of law since because no one really knows how.So yes,'victim of a patriarchal society' is pretty accurate in this regard.And one of the first steps to changing that surely has to be acknowledging it instead of hiding behind the defensive 'youre all raving feminists who think all men are rapists and bastards so we'll ignore everything you say coz everyone we know is right sound,non judgmental and of course rape victims will be treated compassionately and get a fair trial'.Tisnt the reality mate
So how do you think it should or could be changed to make it easier for the woman?
With respect,most 'hippy type' guys dont hold those sort of views either but enough of the 'straight' community do to make it an issue.My gp asked if I wanted to report it and when I said no he agreed it was for the best 'with your history'.Which involved being the victim of a previous reported rape which didnt result in a conviction,and being a bit wild in my youth many years previously,both of which would be brought up to discredit me as a witness if it ever got to court,which it probably wouldnt because the cps knows how the system works so dont take cases forward.On both occassions I was 'believed' so that wasnt the issue and I hate to think how much worse it is for women who arent believed,its just how the systems set up thats the problem.And i dont know what we do about that because its so entrenched..maybe start educating young men and women about the fact no means no and using sexual violence/force is as abhorent as stamping on someones head..
I was on the jury on a rape case a couple of years ago. There was no DNA evidence, however there was other evidence that whilst not proving that the guy was guilty convinced me he was. We couldn't prove it was rape but we did find him guilty of violent sexual assault. Now out of that jury all of the men except two boys found the guy guilty. There were two boys and one women on the jury who made up their mind right away they did not like the victim and refused to consider anything other than finding the guy not guilt. I think this was because the woman came on with a bit of an attitude, which I actually thought was a good thing. She didn't seem like a victim. She was angry and had so much contempt for her attacker. However out of that jury I think we were on the whole working class and the majority of the men who had a brain in their head found the guy guilty. Also while I come on here and am a bit of a hippy at heart I dress dead normal and the boys I hang about with aren't anything other than your average guys, not hippy in the slightest. I know some evil wee bastards who have raped girls and the boys are as quick to condemn them as the girls. Turn it around and I also know a few lassies who've lied about being raped and the girls are just as quick to condemn them as the boys. I think the reality is that most boys think rape is terrible and most girls don't believe that they are always the victims of a patriarchic society.
I realise you guys are just trying to be practical, and it's pretty certain that until women and their allies force positive changes in the laws surrounding rape, nothing's going to change.
What changes do you want to see? I don't think the law should be changed to make up for a lack of proof. It's too dangerous a road to go down. It's not good for rape victims, female or male, but if something cannot be properly proven then it's not proven. If going to the police early does we should try and find ways of making it easier for the women to come to the police and make it less traumatic rather than changing the law.Quote
But I find it depressing that not only are (mostly) women raped, it's also their fault if they choose not to report the crime due to the rigours of the reporting and examination process (which many people find more upsetting or as upsetting as the rape itself), and then the rapist gets away with it.
It is depressing. It's totally shit but what can we do?Quote
It's like, no matter what you do, as a woman under patriarchy, it's your fault. If you get raped, you were asking for it. If you don't report it, and if/when the rapist rapes again, that's your fault. If you get pregnant as a result of being raped, and have the baby, you're a drain on the welfare state. If you choose to have an abortion, you're a murderer. Rats in a laboratory maze have similar choices.
These views are alien to me and I'm a guy. I don't associate with any guys that think like that either. Inequality is what defines the type of horrible society we live in. Women are not unique in being victims of unfairness.
It's a good thing I'm an optimist.[/QUOTE]
Hah. I've had several unpleasant experiences at the hands of men but the most traumatising wasn't the most violent, but the one I went to the police with, because of that.
But what would be more traumatic? Having to go to the police after just being raped or the rapist getting away with it because it's impossible to prove there was a rape?
Oh mate - you seem to have a very jaundiced view of non public sector workers and the general public....the bulk of us are not like that and I bet there are just as many within the public sector who hold those same views about immigrants and asylum seekers....and lets face it, it's the public sector workers in the benefits offices that make some of the poor people out there jump through hoops for their money just for the perverse pleasure of it.
Sorry but remarks like that really touch a raw spot with me.........
I think most folk with an ounce of intelligence will not think in this way regardless of whether they work in the public sector or private. The problem is the most read newspapers in this country, which they public choose to buy are pedalling this crap at the moment. That the public choose to read these papers doesn't say much for them. There is a move to try and replicate the private sector in the public sector or to cut the public sector out where possible. This is bad for everyone and I'd rather see the private sector forced to be more like the public sector. We have a Tory prime minister and we also re-elected Blair after his crimes in Iraq so there's little reason for me to have much faith in the general public as they chose to let these things happen.
The only thing this has going for it is if it's asking public sectors who know the job and see what is wasted then they can let the government know. I work in the NHS and in my job alone I can see lots of ways money could be saved. However asking the general public it will be just a case of: cuts? cut the throats of benefit scroungers, immigrant and asylum seekers, they are unable to differentiate the two and also kill the cancerous evil destroying our society from within . . . . public sector workers. Pathetic!
Just the way I read it too....why should women be allowed to be treated as second class citizens just because it's their culture.
But then again, I guess it was the culture here too until the women rose up and did something about it..........
We can't really make assumptions the women have no choice in the matter though. The ones I feel are being treated as second class citizens are male kids of 10 or over who are children but have to be kept away from women. I just feel it's unjust on them. If the women believe in what they are doing then it's their religion and for some reason I'll never understand I have to respect it however I don't like seeing it pushed onto kids. Hopefully when the kids are at school they will leave their parents ideas behind which is what I've found with myself and most of my mates who's parents have been Muslim or Christian.
I think different cultures can add to our own and blend nicely. Look how in Glasgow we deep fry pizza's:D a blend of italian culinary tradition and the west of scotland heart disease tradition. Seriously though other cultures can add to our own. However I don't believe the idea that a woman cannot be seen by any man outside her family adds to our own culture and I think we should be aiming to help these women see that women can do what they want. That would be our culture adding to another.
Not quite :p
I think, though, that there are already massive differences in our society and there certain groups you'll never assimilate. If you take the Free church puritanism here in Scotland there's just no way you could say someone from that background with those beliefs has very much in common with a secular liberal and yet society survives despite a massive allowance of difference. People of any religion that follow a strict interpretation have more in common I think that with the rest of society. Also I remember debating with you ages ago were u made the case that by not allowing other religions to force their beliefs on us that we are in fact forcing our liberal values onto them. Is this different? At a local swimming pool they have a morning for female only swimming which Muslim women go to. I don't honestly have a problem with that even although I think it's a bit daft. I wouldn't try to stop it.
Being one of those [STRIKETHROUGH]fascist[/STRIKETHROUGH]feminist [STRIKETHROUGH]fundamentalists[/STRIKETHROUGH] women
I have organised camps for women and children ....
In the past I have been to camps where women were [STRIKETHROUGH]"touched up"[/STRIKETHROUGH] assualted in sweatlodges, where young women were preyed on by the alpha male and several woman had been raped on the camps.
WE had great fun and they became very popular mainly white women came
For some women it as a phase to pass through a chance to gain strength, experience and a voice for others it is a nessecity not only for cultural reasons, but to realise you can have fun without being an appendage of a man
The camp I was talking about didn't allow male children or male animals which to me is fascist, fundamentalist and offensive. Woman wanting to do stuff on their own is cool but I don't think in the case of this place, think it was somewhere in wales, that it's right.
Before I start let me make this quite clear it's not a racist anti-Muslim rant....Stardust will happily tell you I'm one of the least racist people you're likely to meet.
I went into town today and, in the bus station, saw several buses with big posters - issued by one of the local Muslim groups - on the side proclaiming peace and friendship between religions.....urging love and not hatred - great I thought we're getting somewhere at last.
An hour later I walk through the door to find a flyer for a Womens Bazaar to be held at the local community centre promising all sorts of delicious foods etc.....I'll certainly go to that....but no....the small print said only boys under the age of 10 allowed in.
This saddens me - here is a great opportunity for the community to integrate and converse with each other but it's blocked because Muslim women are held back and not allowed to mix with men.
I almost want to go along anyway just to make a point!
Is it definitely because of Muslim women not wanting men there? If it is it's bang out of order same as those fascist feminist fundamentalists that have set up a camp that don't even allow boys in it.
i am not a feminist and don't take pleasure in seeing other people treated unfairly. my observation was just based on the fact that i have very little sympathy for men being treated unfairly in the workplace.
I think thats quite mean spirited. Like I'd totally understand you have little sympathy for sexist arse hole men who are deservedly getting a taste of their ignorance and prejudice but I don't understand not having sympathy for men when the vast, vast majority of us believe in equality. Some of us passionately. In any work place the people at the bottom are treated unfairly and yes women have had it worse than men which is totally shit. But if we don't try to stand up for each other then we're divided and therefore weaker. I can understand kind of why you have no sympathy but do you think it's really called for. Inequality is so central to the UK today and we need to defeat not be self defeating and see it increase.
women have never had equality before when it comes to the workplace. why start now?
men have always earnt more for doing the same jobs and now they get the chance to earn more for even longer.
That is so crap. I agree some men in jobs with big titles do earn more than women. What about if you work in an ordinary, crappy job? Men in low skilled job get shat on just as much as women. I know! They are trying to make it more equal for women and so they should but I've not time for either chauvinists dicks or for that matter feminists who don't want to see equality for everyone. It just holds us all back when we should be trying to support each other instead of taking pleasure in seeing someone of a different sex being treated unfairly.
Do you remember how Thatcher was always getting ranty at the "wets" in the conservatives; well....they are the bunch that have a lot more say again now.
Man I'm only 25!!! lol, I just remember being in my pram with everyone shouting Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, Out, Out Out! Or after my dad left us just being totally broke. Mind you my mates say they remember me being in primary 1 saying I didn't like Thatcher which would have been about 1990. Luckily my mum is amazing with money and the type of person that would struggle by on nothing rather than be dishonest and abuse the system even if it abuses you.
A mobile phone with £10 of credit can be had for £15....so you have to be pretty much povety stricken on a pretty incredible level to not afford one
Well I remember last time we were under a Tory a government and my mum was one of those hateful single mothers, that were the cause of all of society's problems apparently, but there was no way she'd have had £15 to spare, honestly. I don't know what it's like to be properly poor nowadays, thankfully, but £80 a fortnight though is balls, which is all my mate got when she was signing on.