Posts by anndra_w

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    MDMA creates a fake "lovey" sensation that is utterly divorced from reality.

    Lot's of people take MDMA when clubbing. The fact that the drug increases the connection you have to the music and heightens the experience does not say to me that the sensation is divorced from reality. It just makes the here and now that little bit more fun. However this is becoming pointless because I don't think you are interested in even beginning to consider what other people are telling you, even although they might have a different perspective on drugs and a better understanding of them. This is the problem with the question over Drugs, it all comes down to hysteria and ignorance and until that changes things will stay the same.


    You dont need to assure the quality of ket, crack, etc. Its like saying its better for people to self-harm with a clean new knife than a rusty one. Its better that they dont fragging self-harm at all so stop letting them have a knife inthe first place. :S

    This is back to square one and by this argument alcohol should be banned. It's a question of how harmful substances are.


    Legalise speeding (take away the speed limits) and see what happens. Reckless driving will increase. Its a bizarre idea that legalising something does not increase the ease of use, and from that the actual use. It makes no sense. And it makes no sense because in other matters when you make something easier to get, usage goes up. And yes I know drugs are already available on our streets....but add legality to that and it makes it easier to get them not harder.

    That would depend on how it was done. It's no hassle for me to get drugs just now. I can have them delivered to my house. If they were legalised I'd likely have to go to a designated place between certain hours to get a hold of whatever i wanted. Legalisation could make access less convenient than using dealers.


    If they are, it shows a woefull lack of responsibility and judgement on their part risking all that for a buzz. :S

    Again it's not a risk because the chances of getting into hassle are so low to the point I don't worry about it nevermind feel like I'm taking a risk.


    It really boggles my mind that people seriously want to see ket and coke being openly used in the street without any recourse taken. :S Do you actually want to see society disappear into a puddle of its own blood and vomit? :S

    In Glasgow it's illegal to drink in the streets it could be the same with ket and coke. I would not like to see folk snorting shit in the street it's pretty disgusting to watch.


    1, Where on earth do you work? :eek:

    I work in a hospital. I'm just talking about domestic staff though.


    2, Imagine the situation where it was not weed, but smack or speed....that would be the case if this was all legally takable.

    I don't think that would be the case. Alcohol is legal but people as a rule would not be drinking when working cos you'd get the sack. Being stoned is less obvious. The only guy who used to drink in work was one of the bosses and he eventually lost his job. Most of the younger people in my work take coke and E as well as smoking weed, as you can see the fact something is illegal doesn't stop them but they still don't take stronger drugs like coke, e or alcohol when working. You would get sacked if you were out your face.


    Assure quality?! :S For an awful lot of them, that's a bit like asking for purer arsenic. :eek:

    No if it's pure you know what your taking. It's safer to have wine where the ingredients are regulated as opposed to wine that could be laced with someone that is dodgy.


    They would be used with a new ease.

    Drugs, particularly weed are used with ease now anyway.


    Not in anything like the same way as alcohol. Historically, why do you think alcohol has become the "drug of choice" as compared to those others? It could be blended into society far more than they could.

    I totally disagree with that a lot of people will go into work or college on cannabis that would not go in drunk. In my work there's folk smoking joints at tea break etc but if someone was nipping up the changing room to swig some alcohol people would be talking about them saying they were alchys, in fact we had a chef who used to reek of alcohol and everyone was talking about him. Not with the weed. I'm just back California and weed without any doubt has blended far more into their way of life than alcohol. Everyone smoked it. In fact I felt like the fact I no longer smoked was a bit of a barrier for me because while everyone was getting high all the time I was on a totally different wavelength. It was me not smoking that put me in the minority.


    I doubt that. Delivering powders and pills is easy, but alcohol is bulky stuff.

    Look at the situation just now. In Scotland you can't buy alcohol from the shops after 10pm. People still want it though. We either go to shops that are selling it illegally or phone dial-a-booze, who will drop it off at your house selling it illegally and charging a fortune for the privilege.

    Alcohol in moderation isn't dangerous. Having a glass of wine is not going to affect you in the same way as taking a E or snorting a line of coke. In that sense alcohol isn't as dangerous but in reality I certainly feel alcohol is by far the most dangerous drug because we don't just have one drink. A lot of people get absolutely pissed out their skull. Getting absolutely wasted is pretty normal in our society I don't think taking a couple of E's is as likely to lead to you into danger as severe binge drinking. Another issue is the cocktail of alcohol and a number of other drugs. It's not just a case of alcohol isn't that dangerous and drugs other than weed are. Alcohol cause the most damage to our society, maybe because it's ingrained in our culture, so I can't understand people thinking drugs are more dangerous. Alcohol is right up there with the other drugs but I'd say it is causing the most damage to our society. People need to stop seeing illegal drugs as something bad and see them and alcohol as all part of the same thing.

    When you increase the cost of air travel, to protect the environment, they call it green. When you increase the cose of alcohol, to protect society, they call it snobbery. :shrug:

    I call it unfair. In fact you say "they" but I'd have thought you'd be quite relaxed about air travel for the rich only more than most people on the forums. The thing about the access to alcohol and the poor is that alcohol does nothing to help improve the lot of those at the bottom and is actually probably a hindrance to the struggle for a fair society. When everyone is pissed out their skull they don't worry so much about who the society round about them is designed to rip them off. So while I don't like the idea of alcohol being held back and only the privileged having access to it in a sense it could actually help people at the bottom. Really though, if you look at cocaine, it's expensive but I've seen people who have coke problems get them self into massive debt just to get it. But again the majority of people don't behave like that. It's tricky.


    I do not say it will lead to chaos. I say it will add more chaos to the mix of a society that has a large number who cannot even handle alcohol and fatty food sensibly. And what we usually get is that "people couldnt handle it in the past, but we can educate well enough now to do so". Which is, quite frankly, the patronising tosh spooled out by every teenager who thinks themselves wiser than their parents. :rolleyes:

    I don't believe the whole people couldn't handle it in the past thing. People have been using drugs for a long time. The one thing that has been consistent is that seem people can't handle it and many others can.


    I have lost count of the number of people who have come on here over the years, with lives shattered by drugs.

    As with alcohol. Drugs can destroy lives but they do not for the majority of users. Most of my immediate and wider social circle use some form of drugs and it's a small minority of these people that have actually developed a problem and it's an even smaller minority that haven't been able to sort out their problem by themselves. While most of us use drugs I think alcohol is actually the thing that has been the most damaging. If feel much more in control of my judgment when taking ecstasy compared to when I'm very drunk.


    :shrug: It's true. :shrug: People are willing to risk imprisonment and ill health for a fix. That to me cries out that the hold these substances have over people is not healthy.

    Not it's not true. If i thought there was a realistic possibility I'd go to jail for being caught with drugs I wouldn't take them. I don't carry large amounts of drugs and am wary of having drugs on me in a public place. I can not stand the thought of loosing my liberty which is the reason that I have never chosen to sell drugs. I've seen mates living comfortably off dealing but I wouldn't do it because there is a high possibility I could loose my liberty. Using drugs not so much. The two things that have the greatest hold over me are alcohol and cigarettes and the hold is far greater than any from drugs but still I wouldn't be willing to risk my liberty to get them. That does not mean I would not break the law to obtain them but the same as with speeding I'll do it because I don't have a high regard for the law and I'm fully aware I'm highly unlikely to be jailed for using drugs or speeding. It's about personal responsibility. If I'm driving in the city I drive sensibly but if I'm out on an empty road in the Highlands I'm not going to stick to the limit just because the law says I should. Same with drugs I'm responsible with how and where I use them. No unhealthy hold.

    The thing is Coyote your talking as if the legalisation of drugs is going to lead to some sort of chaos. This idea does not reflect on reality. The whole thing about drugs in this country is that a lot of what people are told about them is bullshit. We're told how dangerous they are and the damage they do but then you go into the real world and see the massive amounts of people that have perfectly functioning lives but choose to use illegal drugs sometimes and it doesn't have a negative effect on their lives. It is no different from alcohol. The issue of legalising I don't think will make people suddenly want to take drugs. In the whole time I've taken drugs legality was never an issue. Something being illegal didn't make me think oh dear I better not do this. You say people are willing to risk their freedom to get access to drugs but that is so melodramatic. People aren't scared to take drugs because their not all that likely to get caught. I don't care if they do legalise drugs because it won't really impact whether I take them or don't but I'm tired of the hysteria that surrounds drug use. For most people taking drugs it's really no big deal. It's the same as alcohol. Some people fuck up on it and others don't.

    Imho it starts him out as being an average 12yr old lad. I don't think anyone, but you, sees adding a year to your age to get a facebook account as an indicator of a dishonest nature.

    Yeah this thread is being dragged off at a daft tangent. No one seriously think's lying about your age on facebook is an indicator of character. I went to see Mrs Doubtfire when I was underage. Who gives a shit it's irrelevant?! The police have more of a motive to lie than the boy but they don't actually deny what the boy has said an neither does the headmaster. I think we can safely disregard the facebook thing as meaningless.

    I'm not saying the students should not vote out of blinkered self-interest (that's a whole other discussion), I'm saying that if they did act as you say they did....well, they cant really complain if MPs do the same can they. :S

    To be fair at the election the lib dem's sounded like the fairest party for everyone compared to the tories and labour. What is actually worrying is the Tories were the largest winners in the election in the UK.

    I've been looking into banking with a credit union. I didn't realise this until recently but apparently you can now set up accounts and have a debit card with them now. It makes financial sense and the best bit is the the banks hate credit unions. If we all joined ethical banks the country wouldn't need to grind to a halt but we'd still be fucking up the bastards.

    Great joke from that shouty scottish comedian who is on mock the week a lot after the attempt to bomb the airport in scotland.
    Talking about the muslims trying to bring religous hatred to Glasgow.


    Ha! Good one. I hear another one about the guy who attacked the attempted suicide bombers at Glasgow airport, when the bombs didn't work but the bombers caught fire. It was something like: Glasgow, the only city where they see someone in flames and decide to knock fuck out of them. :D


    That is a problem of multiculturalism; the idea of seperate and distinct cultures in a shared are...

    The most divisive thing I've ever known is between Catholic and Protestant. Nothing to do with other cultures coming in.


    Has there been anything noticable from muslims at all in this country?

    There's no reason to expect them to this is the point.


    That is my point. If you insult muslims they get all agitated, but if its muslims doing the insulting the rest all clam up. Hmmm.

    Thats because we're terrified of being seen as racist. On the other hand if you insult a Christian more and more they're relishing the opportunity to play the martyr.


    It depends on what is being taught rather than whether it is a "religion".

    No there's the whole segregation thing that comes from separate schools.


    Why do you believe that such a statement to be unnecessary?

    Because we don't expect it of others. Before the Iraq invasion in every poll the majority of people in scotland were against the Iraq invasion. When it came to the scottish peace marches the majority of the population didn't march but that didn't mean they supported what was about to happen.


    Poverty, a career or a desire to serve your country, are the usual reasons.

    Well yeah I know these are reasons. I just mean morally I don't think it's kosher and certainly don't think these recent wars have served the country. They're involved in wars that bring shame on us.


    Minor behaviour should be ignored but beyond a threshold it should be clamped down on, and when it is repeated and as part of an overall problem linked with islam it needs some kind of public show that these ARE a minority (if such is the case). I wonder what would happen if someone seriously insulted islam; would the muslims remains quiet for that, or would that see a march or riot? :shrug:

    The fact that only a tiny amount of Muslims are doing this in the UK should be enough for us. If someone seriously insulted Islam i'm sure there would be some Muslims marching just the same as last year when I was working for a gay arts festival there was loads of christians outside protesting against it. Same as when there was a pagan event in a burgh hall a few years ago there were christian protestors trying have that closed as well n flinging holy water at people etc. Acts like this are annoying as is burning the poppys but it achieves nothing and shows the protestors to be fools who are more extreme than the majority.


    ]That implies it is a useful tool to "surpress the population".... Looking at many ways it has been expressed (some of which I listed earlier) this should be a troubling religion for the liberal west. Many of its values appear to be counter those of western liberal secularism,

    As is Christianity.

    You need to be wary of religion in general. I think Muslim and Christian schools are much more of a threat than a few morons burning Poppy's. I also do not think that the majority of Muslims should feel they have to make a statement distancing themselves from this behaviour. At the same time I don't really expect them to be patriotic or supportive of our forces if they disagree with what our troops do. I don't support them and I do not understand people wanting to join the forces. When I see the images of them burning Poppy's what i see is them trying to be offensive and shock people. Their minds are twisted but it doesn't have a big impact on me. I just see them showing themselves up.


    ]That implies at best apathy. You'd think by now, seeing as what is being done in the name of islam, there would be a "not in our name" march that would do wonders for acceptance in this country.

    If I was a Muslim in this country I'd be far more concerned with marching against things like the Iraqi invasion and Israel.

    They could have a not in our name march but what's the point when it's plain to see that things like this have come from a few idiots? With demonstrations from the EDL all the time and the Islamaphobia that seems to be worsening in this country we don't expect all non Muslims to march to improve relations. Doesn't mean people are apathetic they're getting on with their lives.


    You need to look further afield then.

    Don't see why. I've heard a fair bit of anti Islamic prejudice so it's not like I'm only around people are who aren't anti-Islamic.

    1. Where are the majority then? Why are they not vocally distancing themselves from this act?

    Well they aren't out on the streets burning Poppy's so that's all the distancing I need. Not every English person is racist just because they aren't seen to distance themselves from the EDL.


    Which is the question asked each time these "extremists" who "do not represent the majority" kick off. Is the moderate muslim response not being reported? Or does it not exist? :shrug:

    Who's asking this question each time something like this happens? I've only heard you so far.


    No more than the Welsh, English, Scottish and Irish thats in me... doesn't matter if they are born here or not - you find that the true British group of Muslims that born here won't say a thing but there are the die hard Islamist extremists who want to turn this country into a Islamic state by the back door.

    I agree with you that there are extremists who would like to see the whole of the UK and the world Islamic and equally there will be far right extremist who would like to see an all white Britain. However I don't feel like these extremists are succeeding in changing my way of life or my culture.


    Live in the UK, live to the standards that the UK people live to.

    What are our standards? I think my standards are very different from say the strict Free Church Puritanism of some my family in the Highlands. I think strict Islam and Free Presbyterianism probably have more in common with each than they do with secular liberals.


    I bet that the people who burned them poppies weren't even born here but here on from another country/ or read the Koran wrong? and maybe so they are not expressing the concerns of a UK born Muslim, but its like the EDL here don't voice my concerns of a UK born national like me?

    It's very likely they could have been born here and become radicalised after what happened with Iraq and 9/11 etc. They could easily be UK Muslims expressing their personal, views. True they don't speak for all Muslims.


    Not just the far right group... how about the standard squaddie whom comes back from the hell hole out from Iraq or Afgan. They come back as a change person. They see it all first hand, they will have anger in their minds that gets passed on. What about family's ripped apart cus of some Islamic tit blew himself to bits so he can have sex with 40 virgins in paradise? Families are going to be wanting to vent their anger? So how is this going to be defused if idoits keep doing stupid things like this.

    Yeah my mate came back from Iraq and ended up chucking the army and becoming a hippy. He didn't come back a Muslim hater. He never joined the army to fight for his so called country he just wanted to get training and then the next thing 9/11 happened.

    Nothing is going to defuse the anger of the families of those who lost people to terrorism but in reality there aren't massive numbers of families like this. The extremists probably will keep making protests like this and it will anger people but it's not going to lead to a civil war.


    I remember the Bradford riots.. and it wasn't nice. But its going to happen again if these idiots keep destroying our values of the British Peoples way of life. Have you ever been to Luton, or Perry Bar or Bradford or some parts of Sheffield - some of these places are powder kegs waiting to go and I would not dream of walking there or even taking the works waggon in any of these places during the night, I would feel a hell lot safer in Broadmoor.. and all it will take is something local to make it pop. I will hazard a guess it wouldn't be a Brit doing it first. Some of the places I hear our drivers are refusing to go because of the alienation we get from certain groups of people ... let me put it out.. spot the British man in the middle of the night??

    I remember the Bradford riots. I was in Bradford at the time. We had police escorts on the train in case there was trouble. I have family down in that part of Yorkshire and there are a lot of Muslims there. At the same time in my whole life I've never encountered racism that is so rife, open and accepted as what I've seen down there. It outrageous. My cousins live in Holmfirth which doesn't even have a Muslim community but if you go into the pub and talk to people they hate anyone that isn't white. It's really disgusting. There's just wide spread general ignorance and prejudice. I don't know how the hell you could ever integrate in places like that.

    Which of our values have Muslim extremist destroyed? Honestly? I haven't ever had to sacrifice any of my values to appease these people. Have you? There are districts of Glasgow with high Muslim populations but I don't feel frightened walking through them. There is some fighting between gangs but you always have gangs fighting regardless of whether an area is Muslim or not. Usually the thing these area's have in common is being pretty poor.

    As for British values or way of life. I don't believe there is any such thing as a British way of life. The UK is made up of different nations with separate cultures and then these nations have differences in culture within themselves as well. I'm finding having a Tory Prime Minister that every single constituency in my country except one voted against highlights the difference in values in the UK.


    When these powder kegs pop... it will be a war over religion and identity nothing more. Just like the troubles that the UK went through in the Tudors times over the church that still keeps popping up in Northern Ireland.

    We're mostly not religious and the UK doesn't have it's own identity. It's lots of different peoples under a government. That's as sentimental as I am about the UK. I'm not English but England has such a rich history and it's own identity that I think has become confused with a British identity and maybe that is why people feel like their traditions are being marginalised. Seems that often people associate celebrating Englishness with being racist and that shouldn't be the way of it.

    I don't believe the majority populations way of life is under threat. I think we loose more of our traditions through globalisation and being so influenced by the states than what we do to Islam.

    The saddest thing for me has been watching our Gaelic dying away. My family went from having no English to Gaelic and English speaking to just English speaking within 3 generations. It's starting to be saved now and lots of young people like me have learned Gaelic at school but there is still an old way of life that is dying and that is sad. This is not the case for the identity of the majority population of the UK though. So we're cool.


    Don't forget the lasses too - Vent your anger at Bush too as it was all his idea, there again if it wasn't for 9/11 this may have never happened at all - it all comes down to ££\$$'s at the end of the day.. Iraq was the black gold (oil) and not sure about Afgan resources though.

    I don't have the same anger for Bush as I do for Blair. I would expect Bush to something like this. I do not expect what Blair did to be the actions of a Labour prime minister. If your Bush or a Tory you'd expect that but a Labour PM should know better.


    Kezz, it goes to show that the British Public has had enough of being whats the word... down trodden by those whom come here to live a crusty life in UK and telling us all to die die die..?

    What is it that suggest to you these people weren't born here and aren't every bit as British as yourself?


    Yes, maybe its wrong to use the Poppy as a symbol on the door of the mosque, but its deadly wrong to go about burning poppies on the 11 hour on the 11 day of the 11 month that means sooo much to the British people.. They did this to cause a stir and I am afraid this won't die down now. The poppy can be taken on by people as a rebellion of the Islamic faith. Wait until they start killing our grannies and granddad in the streets for wearing a poppy you will be sure a full out civil war will be on the governments hands.

    A civil war? Isn't that a bit over the top? How many UK Muslims do you think agree with these protesters? Do you not think the majority of UK Muslims have as little desire for civil war as anyone else. The only people fighting with each other would Islamic extremists and far right groups here.


    And I got family and friends who are spitting feathers right now... after we all and know someone serving is or had been in the forces and they all feel used by this.

    I feel so much more anger at Blair for sending young boys into pointless wars to die than I do towards these idiots. All they do by burning the Poppy is make them selves look like spiteful, bitter, extremists.


    because we've all been raised to realise this is an important symbol of respect....

    Your right we have. However with the first world war we are taught that these soldiers gave their life for their country but they didn't. Their lives were sacrificed by the people running the country and no one talks about that. All this remembrance kind of misses the point of what happened to these people. They didn't have to die, they weren't fighting for their freedom like in WWII. In Iraq and Afganhistan they aren't fighting for their country. They're there because Tony Blair was willing to sacrifice their lives.

    I've got no time for these protestors but I feel all this remembrance is a bit empty. We remember because we are taught to. If we really remembered the sacrifice these people made would we still be sending young men into Iraq and Afghanistan to die for nothing.?


    So I think you've got it the wrong way around. Not, 'What the hell kind of parents are we?' More, 'What sort of kids did we spawn?' Too scared to protest or fight for their rights to the free education (The Grant) their parents had. Sadly we no longer have the dockers, shipyard workers or miners to join the students' protest and give it a united front towards a general strike.

    It was students that were protesting though. Sadly a lot of students don't protest but there still an element of us that are politically aware and do protest. It's not just young people that are hopeless. The twisted thing about our society is that seeing people fight for their rights seems to get up other peoples noses. The anti-Unionism in the papers in England is another part of it. Another thing is that during Thatcher people were out demonstrating so much and when Labour came in they hoped for change and they got more Thatcherism so I think a lot of people feel they can't change anything. There's no alternative to Labour or Tory. We can protest but we will be ignored. I've heard people in my parents generation say whats they point in protesting anymore? It's depressing but at the same time understandable. In your day you had strong unions that could bring about change. You had more power than we do. We can protest, we can join unions but we're still stuffed. It's frustrating.


    Except that,
    a, your situation describes very few JSA claimants, especially the longer-term and cross generational ones
    b, "Strange Fruit" was describing an ongoing situation where people were provided with houses regardless, rather than one where you paid years of tax and ni

    Your totally right to an extent. I a fair few people who choose to live on benefits and sneer at people who work for being fools. I mind when I was at school a lot of my mates from the poorest area in our district planned to sign on as soon as they could. It was kind of cool I guess. At the same time if we are going to have masses of people unemployed because of the crisis, we should support them and not punish them because it's devastating to loose the security of employment. The people that are about to loose their jobs aren't the people playing the system, they'll be the victims of our situation and I don't want to seem them punished because of the actions of the irresponsible ones that abuse a system which should be there to protect people. Benefit fraud for the whole of the UK costs the same as smoking related illness costs Scotland, which is such a tiny country with a small population. Benefit reform isn't going to provide much benefit to the UK as a whole but it potentially could create a lot of problems for people who really don't deserve it. I just don't believe we we're going to gain much as a society by these reforms and while I disagree with choosing not to work I could put up with the scroungers just to make sure the people who are actually having a hard time get a fair deal. Saying that our benefit system is a joke anyway and I would hate to be in the situation of having to attempt to live like that.

    i am simply pointing out that the tactic of moving people off jsa into full time education has reached saturation. i know some people who dont want to work. I also know some who use continuing education to avoid work. if we are going to admit that these people exist.. then we also need to admit that some are hiding in further education.

    Good well if 90% of students are finding employment then hopefully some of those who came from JSA will be amongst them.

    I know you probably do get students who use it as a way to avoid work but most of us want to work and compared to other countries UK students are not well looked after by the tax payer. My best mate gets £20,000 a year to live off of while studying in the UK from his government. I get $4000 a year, half of which I have to pay back and I'm in Scotland so it's probably even worse for students in England where you need to pay fee's etc. Being a student isn't cheap.

    of course the other option would be to send all the unemployed to university... oh i forgot..ten pecent of last years graduates are still unemployed. and they dont have to repay the taxpayers money they had as a student loan....I think they should work as litter pickers..even they must have enough common sense for that.

    So what class former students as the undeserving unemployed. Really helpful.

    I've worked unpaid in the past to get a bit of experience in make me more employable. I'm in theatre and loads of people will take on projects unpaid because it will benefit them in the long term. I was doing that to get experience in a specialised area. I don't however, want to see people out working for free as a way to justify the paying of benefits to the many more unemployed we likely to have as a result of the cuts. I'm not sure if that is what is being proposed and if doing a weeks free work helps you to get a job then technically I'd be for it. Maybe it could do some good but I'm not convinced the Tories won't just make a mess of it all. If there was serious suggestion that people would be expected to work to earn their benefits then I'd expect to them to be paid the going rate same as anyone else. If it's just a case of giving people a bit of work experience to make them more employable then I don't think that's a bad thing. There was an initiative in my district that was there to help the unemployed back into work. I wasn't unemployed but I only had a weekend job and was trying to find proper work so I used to go to meet with them and they'd help us find work. Some people were work ready and capable of starting work if a job came up. Others though weren't ready to go straight into work for whatever reason. They needed extra help than the rest of us. If this work idea was there to actually help them then I wouldn't be against it. However this is the Tories so most likely it's going to make the situation worse. The whole with-holding benefits for those that refuse I'm against. I know there's people that need a kick up the arse but it's just too dangerous to start going down this route. The pittance people receive in job seekers is a bloody disgrace without withdrawing it if the unemployed don't do what is demanded of them. Tories and Labour alike both embrace a system which means there is always going to have to be unemployed people so I don't know why there always so quick to label everyone as scroungers.


    I dont understand the point you are making here? :S

    I'm not too sure myself what my point was. I'd just come home from a 21st when I posted and was pished! I think basically what i was saying was that even if you break the law that doesn't mean your not qualified to be a responsible voter. So many people who vote and take it seriously also break the law. We are all dishonest to some extent as well. The law has to be acknowledged but I know that I personally pick and choose what laws I abide by and which ones I choose to disregard. Choosing to break the law doesn't make you less concerned about politics. If a law is stupid break it. Just let them vote. It's not a big issue. We allow idiots to vote so allow prisoners. I'd rather an intelligent prisoners vote than some moron off the street that does what The Sun tells it.

    To be honest though in reality the right to vote has nothing to do with honesty. I've always voted as long as I've been allowed to but at the same time I've been breaking the law in one way or another since my early teens. I'm interested in politics and care about it and if I was imprisoned it wouldn't affect how responsible a voter I was. So I don't really care all that much if prisoners are allowed to vote. I don't believe being a prisoner automatically makes a person less useful as a voter. It's not really going to affect us if we allow prisoners votes. So many people don't make any effort to vote and if prisoners are so uneducated as people keep saying then unless they're interested in politics they might not be all that interested in voting. Regardless of what crime you have committed I don't see how that will make you less useful in a vote. Letting prisoners vote is not a big deal. Although Coyote I totally understand why you feel you should earn the right to vote and I thats my how i feel it should be instictually at the same time I feel like to do that would be undemocratic and sometimes we need to put up the shit consequences to ensure a certain amount of fairness.

    So am I right when I say the term "Paganism" is used in the same context as "Abrahamic faiths", as in, nothing more than a grouping term, so-to-speak? And one with noticeably less credibility, at that. My only point there, is that if Paganism is nothing more than a collective noun for various faiths, then how can one refer to oneself as Pagan? After all, not many believers refer to themselves as following an Abrahamic faith.

    I don't think I'll ever fully understand the fundementals of Paganism and it's "children" faiths to be honest, there is just too much conflicting information to absorb and dissect before you actually reach the truth. But then I suppose the jist of it is your own interpretation, and escaping from set rules etc. Unfortunately, though, therein lies the problem. No one really know their ear hole from their arse hole and everyone pretty much does as they please.

    If you got to a moot for pagans though you can have, Wiccans, Druids, Heathens and Solitary's etc all meeting together. There'll be a talk and it's on topics and of interest to most. There is a certain commonality amongst different groups. I think it's for a Wiccan and Druid to both feel comfortable with what they have in common than it is for a Christian and a Muslim.