Posts by welshlamb

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    Quote from Sthenno

    Not sure yet, I think I might be away for all those dates.
    :(



    Where would I be able to get a ticket? Not sure about the dates as I do not have a diary with me but as I will be living in N Devon for most of the summer.... So long as they are not friday or saturdays - I should get to one.

    Quote from Atomik

    What scares me most is how blindly accepting people are of this technology. I don't believe it's motivated by anything particularly sinister currently (unless you count control-freakery), but the framework will be there for any authoritarian government that wants to use it.



    That is the most worrying part of all this. The biometric ID and possible chipping of people on top of the spying - just needs a worldwide economic collapse or some major crisis and hey - we are living in a very frightening fascist state where we are absolutely controlled.

    You know about the clothing that has chips in it? You walk into a store, maybe wearing a jacket you purchsed last week, and a tv monitor says 'Hi there welshlamb... welcome back - we have a greatr offer on......'. Many stores already have the chip recognising technology built into the doorways..... makes oyu think huh?

    Quote from wormhole

    Reptiles, such as snakes and turtles, are wonderful 3D animals. The cold-blooded, serpent-like force that seems to rule most people who abuse power is a 4D malevolent force that distorts human behavior when creativity is suppressed. People do not become reptiles in 3D; rather, the malevolent force rules their lives, such as can be seen with the Hanoverian Royals of England and their distant American cousins, the Bushes.



    Yep, the bloodlines - its all in their genes.

    Interdimensional Fucking Bastards that they are.

    Very much. The UK has the most fixed monitoring devices per head of population IN THE WORLD. 4 million cameras in London alone. Then a couple of weeks ago I noticed a piece on the proposed introductino of lip reading devises to work side by side with the cameras.... and now you can be followed, door to door monitoring with no blind spots....

    I am very scared......

    Fucking Bastards.

    Quote from Coyote

    What gets my is why some folks go on about these types of "conspiracies"....as if the govts in question dont do dubious things in the open! :eek:



    They mostly do stuff in the open. I don't regard any of the list in my original post to this thread as conspiracy theories, as they are now proven and in the public domain.

    Foe example

    Waco was in front of our eyes, the senate hearing saw the branch davidians being burned, gased with cyanide gas and shot with machine gun fire as they tried to escape.

    But the report by the senate hearing lays the blame for the deaths squarely at the feet of the davidians themselves and does not mention the fbi claiming to not have fired a single shot, does not lay the blame at the feet of Clinto for ordering the murders.

    The elites like to do stuff in plain view - it demonstrates our impotency and their power.

    Quote

    Makes you wonder why such cunning conspirators couldn't fake such evidence, doesn't it?



    Why do they need to when they control the mass media and couldn't give a fuck about the minority that see through the lies.

    Quote


    That old chestnut. Makes you wonder why on earth "they" would even bother releasing such news in advance. Building 7 was relatively small potatoes on 9/11. Having orchestrated such a fake attack, you'd think the government would then back the fuck off and let the news agencies get on with it. Golden rule of any conspiracy - keep it as simple as possible. :rolleyes:



    If your not up to speed with developments and 9/11 info should you really be saying things like 'that old chestnut'. It was just a couple of months ago that it was revealed that the BBC had reported the building falling 30 mins before it did. Building 7 is not small potatoes. Do you know what was in building 7? I guess not.
    Building 7 had to go and there needed to be a story outlined to the press, but it should have been given after the demolition. This is massive news, it confirms building 7 as the smoking gun.

    Quote

    This kind of logic cracks me up. The CIA are capable of weaving an intricate conspiracy on a grand scale, yet they manage to leave a trail of obvious clues, failing to cover their tracks by forging such evidence? Sloppy.



    Its always the case that CCTV cameras do not work when the authorities ahve something to hide. There is no CCTV footage of the 'hijackers' boarding the planes. No bodies. No DNA. Just the passport that flew out of the plane that hit Tower 1 and landed intact on the pavement - which the FBI now say was a 'rumour that might be true'

    Quote


    They've lost a few classic episodes of Dr Who. Makes you think, doesn't it? :eek:



    The BBC only reported that they had lost the footage following the revelation that they had reported building 7 had fallen 30 minutes prior to it having done so. A bit like Lee Harvey Oswalds details appearing in a newspaper in New Zealand before his details had been released in the US - someone got the timezone wrong on that one.....



    OK - I give up - Having a discussion on these topics on this forum is frustrating and a waste of time. You misinterprate statements, do not answer questions, choose bits to suite your argument and in effect close down the discussion.

    I will stay away from politics here as it seems to me that there is little room for broad spectrum debates.

    Quote from mudrat

    Following on from a discussion in another forum I thought I'd ask anyone here who's interested if they know exactly what the evidence for (and against) the conspiracy theory that so-called Islamist terror attacks are in fact the work of western governments intent on creating panic for their own ends actually might be?

    Does it convince you, or even make you wonder?



    This is as good as any place to start - a fact pact leaflet re 9/11 - http://www.wearechange.org/flyer/flyer.pdf also Webster Griffin Tarpleys book 9/11 Synthetic Terror which looks a 9/11 but also places it in the context of an ongoing programme of control of the masses by the global elites. Obviously Loose Change II and Mind the Gap documentaries as well as Terrorstorm.

    A good place to start to be convinced about CIA manipulation of world affairs is Mohammed Mosadek the president of Iran who was deposed following CIA sponsored terrorist attacks following his claim for a share of Iranian oil for Iran rather than all for, I think it was BP.

    With the deathbed confession of E Howard Hunt, where he clearly points the finger for Kennedy's assination at LBJ and the state apparatus - well, if the president can be removed in such a brutal fashion and the truth remains hidden for 40 years....

    The hijackers for 9/11, 6 have ben found alive, there was no arab DNA found in the bodies and body parts of the flight that supposedly was brought down by passenger intervention, there is no evidence that any of the 'hijackers' boarded the planes. It is laughable to accept that a passenger plan hit the Pentagon. The Twin Towers fell at freefall speed - following multiple explosions. Building 7 was reported as having fallen before it fell and now the BBC have lost ALL of the original footage of the events on that most historic of days.

    7/7 the british government have refused to hold an enquiry - madness. There is conflicting evidence re the 'bombers' and no convincing cctv images have been released. The so called ringleader of the 7/7 plot is an MI5 agent and although wanted by the US was and I believe still is under British protection. The only provable facts of terrorism re 7/7 are that explosions occurred and also, a few days later of the shooting in the head, whilst being held on the floor, 8 times, with illeagal dum dum bullets, of Menendez.

    I could go on an on but I guess it is best to start at the beginning -

    Look at the evidenced acts of self harm and of state sponsored terrorism

    Pearl Harbour
    Gulf of Tonkin
    Kennedy
    Bobby Kennedy
    Ruby Ridge
    Waco
    JFK Jnr
    Operation Gladio
    Mosadek

    As you dig through these you will be pointed to further acts.........

    Although there are lots that despise America and the West, it seems that an overwhelming proportion of terrorist acts can be attributed to home grown spies and double agents.

    Quote

    So there are times when you're prepared to consider the possibility that conspiracy theories might be a load of nonsense then?



    A confrontational use of language. It would have been more polite for you to have said ......some theories might require revision.

    Quote

    I'm sure you don't really need me to explain that.



    Well I asked you to explain as you denied that it implied that I was a nut. So yes, what is it implying if not that?

    Quote

    The net is indeed a source for research - but no reputable scientist would use it as their only source. If you have real, verifiable proof of... for example... the existence of aliens, I'd be very curious to see it.



    I am not a scientist. I have explained why I think RV is proof for me. Furthermore I have witnessed two incidents and I regard other personal testimony and video as backing that up. If you would like I will send you a copy of the Mexican footage that I have.

    Quote

    Obviously not, or I assume you'd have chosen a site that wasn't so obviously ridiculous. Funnily enough though, I didn't really do any searching. It was about the second link I clicked on. It wasn't exaclty in the site basement, locked in a filing cabinet in a disused toilet with a sign on the door saying "beware of the leopard"!



    I choose the site as it has the best most accessible explanation of RV. You were meant to watch the presentation and then understand how RV works and is scientifically provable.

    Quote

    So you're saying that remote viewing is a subjective experience? :whistle:



    No. RV is highly accurate information gathering. Where a target is not known the conscious mind can be prevented from interference. It is simply my opinion that a subject like Jesus, although he can be viewed, is emotionally charged for many people and so the information may be coloured by the viewers religious perspectives. This is not to say the viewer did not see Jesus just that I believe such information may not be as accurate.

    Quote


    I started this thread to discuss the phenomenon of UFOs, and it would be nice if we could get back to that topic. It would also be nice if we could discuss it without certain theories being stated as unquestionable facts.



    Good. It would also be nice if the ideas and beliefs that I place into the thread to explain why I beleive that aliens or other types of beings exist are not immediately written off as conspiracy theory (which they are not) and have myself ridiculed as a tinfoil hat wearing, wandering off into x-files territory beleive in anything type of guy.... I am not and I have not enjoyed spending time trying to defend myself when I would have preferred to be involved in a more constructive discussion.

    Quote

    you're completely fixed in your unconventional beliefs,



    Not at all, I am in constant flux, based on daily research and new evidence. For example I switched my opinions on global warming just two months ago and just today listened intently to a new theory about the disapearing bees... I also do not think my beliefs unconventional. A majority of Americans believe in the creation myth - this is a conventional belief in the US and it is bollocks. I believe in stuff I have seen, evidenced or for which there is a good deal of public domain resources which convince me. Is that unconventional.

    Quote

    If I thought you were a nut, I'd say so.



    So, please explain. By saying that I am wandering off into x files territory - what does that mean then?

    Quote


    And there's your problem right there. The "evidence" for anything you like is on the 'net. Formulating an opinion based on nothing more than such flimsy "evidence" would be foolish. You've not exactly done yourself any favours by quoting as a supporting source a website that features "remote viewing" of the resurrection as a real event.



    The net is a place where documents get published for all to see, it is an electronic library. You know this. The documents on the net that I rely on are real, verifyable and supported by testimony of those involved. It is disengenuous of you to say that relying on internet gathered information is flimsy - the net is a key source used in artistic and scientific research papers.

    I quoted a specific page of a website that took you straight to cartoon which explained in laymans terms the processes involved in remote viewing. I am not involved in TRV but in CRV - very similar. I did not expect you to search the site and seek out the most 'wild' claim to assist you to demolish my argument.

    I happen to think that some of the religious experiences had by some remote viewers are coloured by thier strong religious background. I do think that my trainer remote viewed Jesus but I would not use this as evidence as this is not veryfiable. Evidence of the accuracy and provability of RV comes in the form or repeatable experiments over many years. Remember this all started in 1973 (well the US military took it on then) and ended in the mid 80's when the funding was pulled. There is masses of evidence both from US and Soviet teams and now from the databases of the civilian networks.

    when a viewer gets a regular 80% accuracy score on veryfiable targets and then goes to view something that is not veryfiable you can expect that target to be 80% accurate.... This is why I believe that aliens exist, more tha anything else, because I have met the key remote viewers and have been trained by one. And they say that aliens exist.

    This is my personal belief.

    I thought this was the place to have this type of discussion. And it would be good to have the discussion without the tinfoil hat and men in black remarks.

    Quote

    What a bizarre assertion. Gerry Adams must be wondering how the fuck he ever managed to con his way into a power-sharing executive then. :rolleyes:



    I regard the 'troubles' in N Ireland as a War, started by the British.

    Quote


    No you can't. Flimsy "evidence" sourced exclusively on the internet can never qualify as "proof".



    Yes I can and the information is becoming mainstream. You know the list - The sinking of the Main, Pearl Harbour, Kennedy, Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio - the list goes on.... all well attested with officail documents in the public domain.

    Quote



    While I'm quite happy for you to hold left-field points of view on as many subjects as you wish, I would really appreciate it if you would refrain from turning every thread you venture near into a discussion on conspiracy theories. I understand that it's not intentional, but your behaviour is tantamount to trolling. There's plenty of scope for discussing the ethics of warfare without the need to don the old tinfoil hat. If you want to discuss global conspiracies, the Lizard Lounge is the place to do it.



    Thank you. I have contributed to many threads where discussion of state terrorism or aliens has not cropped up. I regard my views as those of someone with his eyes wide open and not as someone coming from kooksville and the continued baiting of me, tinfoil hat type of thing, I find frustrating. 48% of Americans believe that the US government is hiding information about 9/11. Are they all tinfoil wearing kooks whos opinions are not to be heard?

    Quote



    And to continue along the same theme as my last comment, this kind of response is bordering on a personal attack. It's entirely unnecessary and grossly paranoid response to someone expressing a different point of view - albeit a point of view that I also find distasteful. Please refrain from allowing your conspiracy theories to shape your response to people with whom you disagree on this forum. Disagree with someone as much as you like, but this kind of comment won't be tolerated.



    It was not a personal attack. It was a tongue in cheek jab phrased to try to get Cybw to take a good look at his beliefs, which are far from the hippy ethic and very Daily Mail. And again, I do not regard much of what I say as theory as much is well evidenced. Theories join the dots between the facts and the facts stand on thier own.

    If I offended someone I would of course apologise and I have never intended to offend. When you say this kind of comment wont be tolerated - is this a warning and if it is I would like to know what the warning is and where I stand.

    Quote

    The British state untill recently was engaged in a war over in Ireland (for example) With 'terrorists' on both sides looking to export their war



    Prior to Bloody Sunday the IRA was an innefective spent force. Bloddy Sunday galvanised the Catholic minority into fighting for equality. This was a war of resistance. The terrorists here, as can be seen by taking a look at http://www.relativesforjustice.com/pages/32/Home.html

    Quote


    Likewise, the Palestinian's have often looked to export their struggles.



    In the face of overwhelming US support for Isreali State Terror can you be suprised at this?

    Quote

    At a time when the British and Americans are actively pursuing military action against at least two Muslim countries, why does it seem so strange that supporters of those states would want to hit back at the west.



    There is no evidence that 9/11, Madrid or 7/7 were acts of terrorism by muslim fundamentalists, in fact there is a heap of evidence to suggest otherwise. Of the arrests in Britain of suspected terrorists I have seen no evidence to show that the supposed plots were real. Most arrested have been released and the plots have in the main been rubished - remember the one about liquid explosives - actually chemically impossible.... or the anthrax in the US - that soon stopped when the strai was traced back to US military labs.... So where is the bombproof evidence that anti West terrorists are at large?

    Quote

    Nope. I have a very open mind. I'm also no fool and question everything I'm told - whether I'm being told it by the men in black or conspiraloons.



    That statement there goes someway to proveing you do not have an open mind - conspiraloon? Has a good ring but when you are saying you have an open mind.......

    Quote

    Can you point me to where I called you a nut, please? You'll need more than remote bloody viewing to find that non-existent reference!



    you did not call me a nut directly but you said I was going off into X Files territory, and you know that means the same thing

    Quote

    Scientifically provable my hairy ass! As support for this outlandish statement, you expect me to take seriously 'evidence' from a website that features bollocks such as the following?



    can I refer you to my response to coyote re CRV - you need to do the research. All the evidence is on the net.

    Quote

    This is supposed to be an objective phenomenon but the only "evidence" is vague at best.



    I don't see the evidence as vague at all. I, and I am sure many people who use this forum, have seen stuff in the sky that does not react in the way that known man made or naturally occurring objects behave. Huge amounts of people have reported seeing the same objects - the Mexican footage shows over 200 orbs in the sky, flying in formation, huge worm like objects with orbs being released from them, all on video, all investigated and not faked. The Russian, Mexican, Belgium (Belgium has now turned up in three threads.......) governments have admitted the existence of UFO's I could go on......

    Quote

    What "stuff"? This?



    I listed prior to saying 'stuff' the stuff that is going on - similar to the above.

    Quote

    Vague speculation mixed with utter wank :rolleyes:



    You chose to look up Jim Marrs and bring into this discussion his ideas about Iraq war. I did not. You did this to discredit my assertion that his Redgate documentary is a classic and valid piece of investigation. If you want I will send you a free copy so that you can objectively comment. Discrediting in the way that you did is a tactic often used by the media, government and security services.... what was your motivation in this?

    Quote

    2, Hoagland is the guy that brought us such classics as Cydonia and Lapetus the 'death star'....



    And what is wrong with Cydonia as a theory? And he brought us liquid water on Mars six years before NASA announced that there was liquid water on the surface and he has always argued that the crinoid was real and now NASA will have to change once more its opinion on that.

    Quote

    If there are Aliens beep beeping around, how come they stay utterly secret (in cahoots with the govt) except for the occasional jaunt out to mutilate a few cows and buzz a few billybobs?



    Either an agreement was made with Eisenhowers government or they are abducting millions to genetically alter them to be drones in a future world takeover or - I don't bloody know - that is for them and possibly our governments to tell us......

    Quote



    Telepathic raport with aliens and clairvoyancing "area 51" and Tunguska? And where is your evidence, or preferably you reliable witnesses, to show that its not just imagination http://www.trv.com/professorideo/



    There is massive documentation for RV on the net - you simply need to take the time to read it. Its not telepathic rapport or clairvoyancing, its accessing the collective consciousness. Each session is meticulously recorded and so a pattern of ability is built for each viewer. So, by accessing known targets the accuracy of a viewing can be verfied, so then when accessing an unkown target the % accuracy figure for that viewer can be applied. So, if Lyn says he knows that Tunguska was an alien craft then I believe him, If David Moorehouse says that he went offworld and viewed aliens I believe him........ Because they have the recorded and verified track record.

    Chocolate is not chocolate - at least the stuff sold as chocolate in the UK. The EU tried to ban most british chocolate being called chocolate because it really is not chocolate it is a chocolate substitute (trying to see how many times I can get chocolate into a sentance). The Belgium chocolatiers (?) we going crazy about it - but then that only lasted, like a day or something, and then everyone went off and ate fancy chocolate like praline or liquers (?) or 80% cocao or........
    I used to eat loads but now I don't.

    Quote from Sthenno

    Due to extensive searching not revealing anything, I'm beginning to think I dreamt it. How very odd.



    If you dreamed it you dreamed the plot of the film that annie anne mentions - I saw this too, a good while ago, maybe fifteen or twenty years.....

    Some of you guys here seem to have very closed minds and find it very easy to dismiss all aspects of UFO's - aliens - interdimensional beings in a way that is not productive. By ridiculing without having done the research you are playing into the hands of those who wish to keep this stuff out of the public domain.

    So Coyote who it seems has not seen the Mexican footage, the Jim Marrs documentary (Jim is a highly respected researcher in this field) read Stephen Greers book Disclosure or it seems, does not have knowledge of the stuff that Richard C Hoagland has got right (we are talking years and years in advance) well in advance of NASA's announcements, quite happily writes off the research and evidence as a bunch of loonies howling at the moon....

    And Atomik seems to think that remote viewing is the realm of X Files and because I am a remote viewer rights off everyhting I say 'cause I am a nut....

    Remote viewing is a scientifically provable use of our psychic ability, in fact the only provable and repeatable method. Take a look at the animated explanation - http://www.trv.com/professorideo/ - will help you understand. Remote Viewers of a certain standard can view throughout space and time. It was developed by the military in the US and USSR and was forced into the public domain in the 1980's. Why mention remote viewing - cause you can see what is in Area 51, you can see what happened at Tunguska and if you are stupid enough you can get inside and alien mind to work out what they are thinking/feeling.

    And I am not howling or wearing a foil hat...

    Quote from Atomik

    Sorry dude, didn't realise you were going to wander off into X Files territory! :calmdown:


    Why is it that years of research by many intelligent and committed people can be written off as X Files territory?
    There are many theories as to what is going on and I don't asume to know where the truth in this is, but I do not that something real is hapenning and it deserves a hell of a lot more attention.
    I know remote viewers who are the original trainers for project stargate and they say that they have seen, actually been in touch with, aliens on this planet and also on other worlds.... for example, Tunguska was an alien craft....

    Quote from Coyote

    "I'm the only conspiracy theorist in the village!" :D

    Ok, to be (less un)fair there isnt really well documented evidence (except for a few anal probed hicks!:reddevil:) but there may be a lot of stuff from this world (proto-type aircraft) that might be responsible for sightings..... But face it; imagine the tech needed to fly interstellar distances - why on earth (if you'll pardon the pun) would they come here?!! And why would they then slice a few cows and hump a few hicks?! I can really see THAT getting budget approval from the Mox of Balhoon! :D



    Jim Marrs documentary Redgate is a classic, well researched investigation into a communities experiences of UFO visitations. Richard C Hoaglands work on the Martian structures and Mars in general is very well documented. The Mexican sightings and footage, including Mexican airforce released chases... well, amazing.
    It isn't just a few hicks that get probed, it is a systematic abduction of the same people over and over.... there are theories as to why, and millions worlwide are involved. As for the mutilations - these are well documented by local sherrifs.
    I know that I'll get ripped into because of writing all of this but it is important.
    Perhaps these beings do not travel across the vastness of space - perhaps they are already here.......

    Quote from Atomik

    Huge leap of logic. The universe may well manifest all kinds of phenomena that we're unable to understand. It would be foolish to attribute our own cultural presumptions to such phenomena without knowing a lot more than we currently do.



    I disagree that it is a huge leap of logic. Based on current research there are millions of abductees worldwide, there are well documented sightings of craft and creature, there is now stunning video ( virtually impossible to fake ) of craft, orbs, wormlike objects 500 metres in length.... there are governments that accept that there are UFO's including Russia, there have been well documented cover stories placed by the military to explain away incidents, we have cattle mutilations, whistleblowers who get 'taken out'....... what more is needed to show that there is something going on. I said aliens or interdimensional beings - perhaps the sightings could also be stuff that is always there but that we do not usually see....but that would not account for the abductions and mutilations and government cover ups....



    Once again have to respond.... despite not really wishing to....

    Bollocks - education should be free.
    If you wish to look at it as a commodity then a skilled workforce enhances the nations ability to compete in increasingly skilled markets... thus generating income for the coffers of the treasury. Once again you are in 'daily mail' mode.....

    So you would like people stigmatised for being 'poor' and means tested to gain a few books and a few pens..... c'mon - start to think before you type...... means testing is degrading and would ensure that fewer people would participate in the education system.

    I prefer to think that education should never be a financial choice and that the working class should have the same opportunities to learn as the rich. Education should, in my view, not be about traiing for work but about learning about oneself through thoughtfull study. A classical education, although I did not have one, is, I think, the foundation of a good intellect. Paying for education is as wrong as paying for health service operations. Education to degree level should be free.

    OK, thought a long time about replying to this one - not about content but about whether I should or not. A lot of me says no, fuck it but then I have indulged myself in this discussion and so I guess I should respond to responses. But I will comment no further after this. Simply because I think that Cybw is not going to get it.

    I think you should not pose hypotheticals and charge them with emotive language... this is the way of the Japanese prior to the rape of Nanjing.... demonising a people is the route to genocide....

    I would never support a war as wars are called for by the ruling elite, usually to defend thier privelidges. I would not have fought in the second world war as I would not have been comfortable killing a working class german.

    You said there was no threat to the uk. I agreed. If for example France decided it wanted a bit of the UK then as we are both nuclear powers what are we to do...... are we going to have a conventional war and then finish it with total nuclear annialation?

    Think of countries with no standing armies such as Iceland, Liechtenstien and Switzerland - when were they last invaded?

    You are wrong re unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. I can prove without a doubt that since Pearl Harbour there has been a series of manipulative 'self inflicted wounds' that have shaped global economic and political structures. Loose Change has not been discredited and in fact new evidence appears almost daily to substantiate some of the key claims made by the documentary. Mind the Gap is a great introduction to 7/7 and America - Freedom to Fascism is a perfect introduction to the elites global agenda.

    And there are no terrorists with bombs, this has been sold to many generations including anarchists with bombs at the turn of the century, Basque Seperatists with bombs in Madrid, Irish with bombs in Birmingham, Communists with bombs in Italy and Germany.....

    Are you an MI5 stooge placed here to attempt to undermine free thinking and the dissemenation of truth?

    The Norman Invasion? Why? That one is mental. You cannot even contemplate understanding the mindset of the time and it was simply a family dispute - but oh, defend the shores of sacred blighty I suppose.....

    The second world war - more complex but no, knowing what I know, I would not have fought. We, the British, French and Americans, created the situation for Hitler to rise to power, some funded his rise and the beneficiaries of his rise and fall have sat in the White House for many years.....

    I could not live with myself if I had killed another human.

    I would need to kill myself.

    I do not want to kill myself so I refuse to kill others.

    Saying that, If society became so totalitarian that life as I now know that I want to live it was not possible I would join a resistence and I would fight for freedom. But let me make this clear. That is not a war. That is an uprising against a totalitarian dictatorship.... but I would still need to think very long about this as all uprisings lead to massive and needless bloodletting.....

    Thats it, once again I find myself at the exact opposite of the spectrum to you cybw and from now on I am not going to read your posts or comment on your comments, I just find your state of mind too depressing - I mean - you say that you are 17 - you should be rejoicing in beauty and love not supporting the mainstream in their chess playing......