Posts by Atomik

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    I almost feel like I *should* be celebrating ... but deservedly or not, I simply can't find the hatred. I think I'm better than that, I think we all are.

    :ditto:


    Hatred and spite never built a better world. Thatcher destroyed many things that were dear to me, but I refuse to celebrate the suffering and death of another human being.

    The Daily Mail is without doubt an insult to any fair minded person. Unfortunately there seems to be fewer and fewer of those around.........or maybe they're just not able to articulate their points of view.....

    Sadly, I think their points of view are being shaped by The Daily Mail :(

    Is it really possible to be free? :(

    Depends what you define as "free". Life is hard work. You need food, clothes and shelter, and providing those has always been a toil for the vast majority of the human race. But that's not the same as life being a drag ;)


    Just because you need to work hard at life, it doesn't mean that you have to fit into the 9-5 work pattern or burden yourself down with a mortgage. But equally, you might find a 9-5 job that you actually enjoy and that rewards and enriches you. Seems like you have a very negative view at the moment, which is understandable given how intimidating all that responsibility can look. My advice would be to sit down and decide what makes you happy, what kind of lifestyle you need in order to achieve that, and how you can make that lifestyle a reality. Maybe it'll be something you have to work towards in stages, or maybe there's a big change you can make right now. But worrying and fretting about it won't help - do something practical to manifest the future you desire. :)

    Check out how they actually come up with this £100,000 figure. It's laughable.



    Take out actual earnings and housing benefit, and you're left with cash payments of about £46k. Split between three people. How that equates to the guy earning £100k/year is beyond me. :rolleyes:


    If you substitute the word "Jew" for "claimant" in any given Daily Mail article, it makes for scary reading.

    But the Islamist who want to take over the UK want Sharia Law here, I think it's already practiced and ignored. I know they do open air cremations already.

    Sharia law means different things to different people. :shrug:


    I'm not aware of more than a handful of extremist nut jobs wanting to "take over" the UK.

    And also because people cant seem to get their head round the idea at all.. a life sentence with a minimum 15 years means you can go up for parole in 15 years not that you will necessarily be granted parole in 15 years.

    And even if they let him out in 15 years... so the fuck what? He'll be 71. 15 years in prison, ffs. I can't even imagine facing that. That's an epic punishment, and anyone who thinks otherwise seriously lacks an imagination.


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    And finally what has this really got to do with him being a scrounger on benefits? I mean since when was being a scrounger on benefits mean that you think it is a good idea to frame your ex wife by setting your house with your 6 kids in it on fire??? It doesn't.

    The most interesting thing I heard during this whole tragedy was that he repeatedly stabbed his ex girlfriend.... after leaving the army. Now then, which do we think is more likely to have dehumanised the guy. The benefits system, or the army in the 70s? Hmmmmm.

    I am more than a little saddened by friends who are now posting the "I refuse to pay my taxes for people who cannot be bothered to work" status pictures. In fact I could cry, I have just come off facebook after telling someone how I feel, I have not even bothered to wait for the reply. Some of them I know are on tax credits etc which makes it worse.

    One of the worse aspects of Facebook is that it opens your eyes to the ignorance of your friends :(

    Atomik
    The last post was me trying to be balanced & in a way say sorry for coming across badly & now I get a warning !


    I get you now. And I go

    Dude, I'm really confused. How can you tell me that I'm "playing silly buggers" and "ridiculing" you.... then tell me that your post was saying sorry for coming across badly? Honestly, I just don't get it. :S


    Anyway, all you have to do is chat civilly without taking things personally and without making accusations, and everything will be happy and jolly. It's really that simple! :)

    We split everything 50/50. We were essentially housemates that happened to be in a relationship...and then all of a sudden we were considered to practically be a married couple.

    I never understood why a married couple were considered to need less money anyway. I never found any particular savings from living with someone I was knobbing compared to living with a platonic housemate. And where's the line drawn anyway? What if you sleep with your housemate when you're drunk? Or what if you're married but sleep in different beds and don't have sex? The whole thing's ridiculous. :shrug:

    Having said all this as well, tbh life is a lot easier sometimes if you don't tell the government the truth...the benefit system as it stands encourages lying just to get by.


    For example if you are on JSA and you get 10 hours of work cash in hand one week you would be crazy to declare that. The chances are they would get their knickers in such a twist that they would manage to stop your claim for several weeks while they process something.


    Same with claiming as a couple.

    Quite. Given how little you're given to live on (without children), being financially penalised for sleeping with your housemate just seems bizarre.

    I can see that in your own way you are playing silly buggers

    OK, this is a moderation issue now, so consider this a warning: I am not "playing silly buggers" with you - i'm trying to have a civilised conversation. I've asked you a number of times to calm down and to stop taking everything so personally, but you keep coming back with these confrontational comments and accusations. Please stop it.


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    Although I will treat a forum like a fire at a festival. (or even my local, which is very nice by the way) I will chat to people about whatever subject comes up & listen to peoples opinions (Not always facts, but opinions & also I'd be open to other people anecdotal stories) And learn something from them. I will not say "Sorry mate that's not fact based. Bugger off"

    You've not been told to "bugger off". You've had your opinions challenged. It doesn't matter who's right or whose wrong, but the nature of a discussion is that if you say something, then other people are free to challenge it.


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    in my eyes that person is still welcome to join in on the conversation. as all views can give colour to that conversation.

    But you are joining in the conversation. Nobody has prevented you from doing that. Nobody has told you that you're not allowed to express an opinion. Nobody has told you that you're not allowed to recount your personal experiences. You seem to be pissed off because your statements have been questioned - not because you haven't been allowed to express them.


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    As you can probably tell I'm not great with a keyboard, I may not be as clever as you but you can recognise I'm trying to get a point across, you have not tried to understand me but show a level of ridicule which is not constructive nor very friendly either. I believe peoples opinions are all valid. It just seems to me that you don't see it that way.

    Jesus wept. You have an epic chip on your shoulder. I have not ridiculed you, I am not "playing silly buggers" with you, I am not telling you that you can't express your opinion. I am getting really fucking tired of you hurling these accusations at me. If you feel persecuted, victimised or ridiculed, then that's in your head and has nothing to do with me. At this point, I certainly don't feel friendly, but if at any stage you'd care to stop accusing me of various shit and just talk, then I'll be as friendly as you bloody like. Try it. You might be pleasantly surprised :)


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    I believe peoples opinions are all valid. It just seems to me that you don't see it that way.

    No, I don't. That's an irrational position. The "validity" of an opinion depends entirely on the opinion that's being expressed.


    If someone says to me the moon is made of cheese, then I consider that less valid than another person's opinion that the moon is made of rock. The "validity" of opinions is a sliding scale, really. Some opinions I'll disagree with, but I can understand why a rational person might reach that opinion - like "the death penalty prevents murder". Some opinions are equally valid to their counter-opinions, because there's no empirical evidence to support either position - like if someone were to say "olives are nicer than garlic". Some opinions are patently absurd and don't deserve any credit - like "black people are genetically inferior to white people".


    Just to be clear, because you seem particularly sensitive, I am not comparing your opinions to any of the above. These are just examples.


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    Your second point is inaccurate from the beginning, I have not Made any accusations about everyone one national benefits, nor have I made any judgements on anyone I do not know.

    I don't think I said you had? :S


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    As you have clearly still not read my post's you are also making assumptions about what I was trying to say. which is your failing here.

    Dude, seriously! Where?? I am not making any assumptions about anything. I think you're mistaking comments that are made generally in context of the wider issue with comments aimed personally at you. I suspect this may be the cause of some of your confusion. :S


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    Also my social circles are working people who have children & pay a mortgage, as I said before in our circle there is a few people on benefits & from my past where I grew up (People I went to school with) who are still on benefits with no interest in changing their situation (For whatever reasons they have). I feel I have been very clear on these facts (Or stories i've made up) that I am not judging people I do not know but commenting on people I do know & asking maybe for people to acknowledge that there is people who do cheat the system

    Of course there are people who "abuse" the system. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The point that concerns me is whether this is a significant number of people. Because - and this is why I keep coming back to the point about factual evidence - one cannot extrapolate from subjective experience generalisations about the whole benefit system. And this thread is about the whole benefit system, so that's a contextually relevant point.


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    & My comment to that is that is is not fair they abuse a system that is not set up to help them.....do you agree that there are people who do this ? and if so do you think its fair ? Also do we do something about this or not ?

    That's a whole different conversation and a massive topic. I think:



    • It's statistically few people
    • The "problem" is massively exaggerated by the media
    • Focusing on these people is Tory "divide and rule" tactics
    • Wealth is being sapped by the wealthy, not by the poor
    • There are fewer jobs than there are unemployed people, so it doesn't matter if some choose not to work
    • Capitalism requires a rate of unemployment as a counter-inflationary pressure


    I also think it's unhelpful to talk about "benefits" as though they're all the same thing. Single-person JSA is a pittance, and nobody in their right mind would choose to live on that. Single-parent benefits do represent a viable (if low) income though, and I do think there are some questions around whether we've financially incentivised people with no jobs or prospects to breed. However, it's hard to see how that can be addressed without punishing children for their parents' mistakes.


    The problem is, The Daily Mail and the Tory press has polarised the issue, so people are either for or against benefits. There's no nuanced discussion. And any moves the goverment makes aren't really intended to constructively address any problems that may exist, they're reactionary and sadistic attacks on the welfare state and the poor - not to "get the deficit down", but to create a generation of people who are so terrified of having to turn to the benefits system that they'll work under any conditions for peanuts. I'm sure it's just coincidence that the Tories are also attacking workers' rights at the same time. And who benefits from all this? Wealthy business owners. Go figure.


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    I believe this is a fair and valid questions. Also ignoring that the figures you have linked to are "Estimated" figures & this 2.1% amounts to a 3.4bn pounds. it may be a small amount to some but it is still a large amount of money when we as a country are on it's arse, this money should be distributed to people who need & deserve it

    That's why the government has always combated benefit fraud. It's not like they've never done anything about it, and that has nothing to do with reducing and removing benefits from people who are legitimately claiming them. :shrug:


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    I accept your looking at statistics & I am going from personal experiences......Your right maybe I don't know, but you still don't understand where I am coming from. yours and mine are two blatantly different angles & yet you still will not acknowledge my view. :S

    I don't know what you mean by that. :shrug:


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    to be honest I don't see the point in going on with this thread as it serves no useful purpose to anyone involved. I will continue to listen to people, , fact based, ill informed, opinion based or experience based......I believe they are all welcome in having a conversation

    Yes, absolutely. And it's equally important that people are able to challenge opinions when they're ill-informed or inaccurate (not saying that yours are!) - because that's how we educate people, that's how prejudice is fought, that's how people are encouraged to think.


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    Again like my other post's on this thread I have gone out of my way to say that I really do hope I have not offended anyone or said anything that has upset anyone. I wanted to add a useful angle to the thread but it looks as if I failed & come across badly. I still believe peoples personal experiences should be valid in a conversation & people should be able to communicate their personal opinions in the way they want to. Keep smiling guys :thumbup:

    Awesome. One request - pretty please, if/when you respond to this post, take a step back and remember that none of it is personal and you are not under attack. It's a discussion. Nothing more. Keep it civil and avoid the personal accusations, and we'll be cool. :)

    Why do people get paid by the government for having kids?

    It dates back to "family allowance", which was paid when families had more than one child. The idea was originally to encourage people to breed in order to boost the post-war population (bearing in mind that economic growth is annoyingly linked to population growth).

    So you will not at least try to see what I'm trying to say ? this is my point.

    Which bit of what you're trying to say are you talking about? If you tell me what it is you want me to try and see, then I'll tell you if I'm willing to try and see it.


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    You cannot have a conversation with someone if you are denying that a person's experiences is not usable in a conversation.

    What does "usable in a conversation" mean? What you can't do is extrapolate from subjective personal experiences objective assumptions about the benefits system. Frankly, if your subjective experience was that every single person that you know is scamming the system, it would still only tell you something about your immediate social circle, and not the wider community or the national picture.


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    because facts are facts & where do these facts come from ?
    this means most facts posted on the internet are all solid and true are they ? come on I understand that you are an intelligent human being are you always 100% certain of their origin ?

    Well, take this as a "for example":


    http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/a…ndex.php?page=fraud_error


    From that, we can see that 2.1% of benefits are claimed fraudulently - a pathetically low figure. You could question the statistics, but given that the government is currently engaged in a propaganda war against benefits, it would hardly suit their purpose to deflate the figures, would it?


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    ....so basically my point is (subject to your view) that anyone who is saying something that cannot be backed up by perfect evidence it cannot be brought into a conversation ? Sorry again I cannot agree with this.

    You seem to think that I'm telling you what you can and can't say. I have no idea where you're getting that from. You can say what you like within the forum rules. However, if you say something based purely on personal experience, then just like you're free to say that, I'm free to point out that it's only personal experience and it isn't reliable evidence that can be used as the basis for formulating an objective argument.


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    I'm not being confrontational I just want to speak freely but have been told that I cannot. because it's possibly made up.

    Dude, I really don't know where you're getting this from. I haven't at any point told you that you're not allowed to say anything. Say what you want, but if I disagree with it, I'll challenge it. That's how discussions work. :shrug:


    Speaking of seeing other points of view, can you maybe see how it's coming across a confrontational when you repeatedly accuse me of telling you that you're not allowed to say things, when I've never at any point done any such thing, and have no intention of doing so? :S

    So.....now you wont play ?


    Do you not want to understand my direction or do you want to just see your side of things & ignore the others. That my matey is not a conversation.

    Well apparently you think it's a game. :rolleyes:


    I don't have "a side of things" to see. I pointed out way back that you can't know for certain the mental health of another person. That was it. Period. You can argue about it all you want, but it's a total waste of time, because 1. I don't know you from Adam, and you could be making the whole thing up (not saying you are, just saying I'd be stupid to take the word of an internet stranger at face value), and 2. It makes no difference anyway, because one personal anecdotal example doesn't prove or disprove anything.


    Please stop being confrontational. I am not interested in having an argument with you. :shrug:

    Not necessarily, no. But you're flogging a dead horse here. One anecdotal example isn't gonna prove anything one way or another. :shrug:

    Oh that's great. So in addition to bashing metal all day in a (literally) freezing workshop all day, replying to emails and scouring the net all night, I'll now have to make time to justify myself to the jobcentre. Brilliant.

    Serves you right for not giving yourself more hours :p


    Now in all fairness he should get a job, or some volunteering. He is stagnating and really not helping himself. Hes been on benefits for a long time and I do kinda support him personally having his benefits cut or removed because he needs something massive to happen to jolt him into helping himself, but my point is, on face value he is a waste of space benefit scrounger... the reality is a lot more complicated and deep then that.

    Indeed. Which just goes to highlight why the government should be offering support and encouragement rather than just penalising people for being on the bottom of the heap. That's what pisses me off most about these changes - they're not really about helping people, but about punishing them. Hell, there aren't the jobs out there anyway, so fuck knows what work the government actually expects people to do once they've been driven off benefits.


    In other news, they'll be after people on tax credits next. So even workers aren't safe:


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/poli…-low-paid-into-doing-more

    Gauging for an argument there are ya mate ?

    No, I was rather hoping to avoid one, which is why I hadn't replied until you changed your mind about agreeing to differ.



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    Irrelevant to what ?

    Irrelevant to any attempt to reach an objective understanding of the situation. Anecdotal stories aren't worth shit. That goes for my anecdotal stories too, so don't take it personally ;)


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    My eyes ....can be misleading ? please explain this sentence as it make no sense at all.

    What you "see" does not represent a whole story. The "evidence of your eyes" is never sufficient to understand another person's social, financial and medical situation.


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    Also personal prejudice comes in where?

    You seemed to be talking generally - I was responding generally. :shrug:


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    This person has actually told me & his sister (My partner) that he is ripping off the benefits system, his words, he actually tells people.

    Maybe he feels it's easier to claim to be ripping off the benefit system than to admit to actual depression? Or maybe not. But the point is, you don't know.


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    I am just relaying this, but I was not aware that we all have to offer empirical evidence on every comment we make. And I'm guessing that moderators will be subject to this very same rules I'm guessing ?

    Jesus wept. It's a discussion. Nobody is asking you to comply to any rules. Did anyone mention moderation or rules, hmm?


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    Like your comments "were all fucked".....where is your evidence of this ? I have a nice warm house, my dogs are fed & happy. Things are changing not for the better but I see none of your evidence just an opinion, wait does that mean we do or do not need full evidence to place a post ? please as a moderator clear this up ?

    Nobody has once mentioned rules, regulations or moderation. What are you on about?


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    I'm being challenged by relaying a person I know....apparently I made him up, strange that this imaginary person has managed to impregnate someone 4 times.....this makes my imagination able to carry out an immaculate conception. And these amazing beings often come round & play with my son....who I am pretty sure exists too.


    Still confused by your logic, An OP asked for an opinion, I tried to explain where some people are coming from & I find myself defending myself & being called a liar, as a person who lives by his honesty I am pretty insulted by you.

    I don't remember anyone calling you a liar or accusing you of making things up. What I have suggested is that it's just possible that you may not have the whole story. Or hey... maybe you are making things up. How would I know any better? I don't know you from Adam, so I have no idea about your personal integrity. Why would I trust something that some random dude on an internet forum has said is true? I don't know you, so even if you're the most honest person on the planet, I have no way of knowing that. Which is why anecdotal stories aren't particularly helpful. :shrug:


    Now please.... calm down, stop taking everything so personally, and have a civilised discussion. :)

    Ok then.....we don't agree (you simply dont know this person). but I am happy with this. :thumbup:

    That didn't last long then. ;)


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    Ok then.....we don't agree. you simply don't know this person So you do not have any evidence to bring to this conversation regarding a person of whom I know well do you ?

    That's precisely the point. There's no evidence. Which means all it is is an anecdotal story, which you might be misunderstanding, making up, or repeating factually accurately. I have no way of telling, which makes it effectively irrelevant.


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    The good thing about personal experience is that you learn with your eyes & trust the things you experience.

    And the bad thing about it is that your eyes can be misleading, personal prejudice often informs the conclusions you come to, and personal experience isn't representative of the entire nation.


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    If anyone does not like me trying to give a better understanding of another point of view then I am truly sorry for seeing things differently.

    Nothing wrong with giving your point of view, but as it's a discussion forum, you have to expect to be challenged by people who disagree with you. :)

    He's my partner's brother, we see him daily & he tells people freely that he does not suffer from depression. Is that enough evidence ?

    Nope. It's anecdotal and second-hand. Plenty of people don't like admitting to mental health conditions. "I know someone who..." will never represent proper, empirical, independently verified evidence.


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    Again guys I'm not defending any hatred that is aimed at anyone (As I do not agree with small minded victimisation), my post's are from my own experiences only and do not rely on percentages or government figures

    Problem with that is that personal experience is unrepresentative. I mean, I know for a cast-iron fact that there are some people who abuse the benefits system, but I wouldn't dream of using that as the basis for generalisations. Benefit fraud represents a tiny percentage of welfare spending, and most benefits go to people who are actually in work. This Daily Mail idea of a whole generation of skivers sponging off the state is deliberate divide-and-rule class politics.