Posts by fumps

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    The last post was me trying to be balanced & in a way say sorry for coming across badly & now I get a warning !

    I get you now. And I go

    I can see that in your own way you are playing silly buggers, not everyone you come across will be as articulate as others, I'm still new to forums & find the way this thread as gone as really interesting. You come across as more intelligent than me but I just cannot get my point across to you. I will try as best I can below, if it still does not go in, there is really no point in going on. Agree to disagree & move on, I believe I've lost enough beard growing time in trying to say the same thing to the same person :rolleyes:.

    Although I will treat a forum like a fire at a festival. (or even my local, which is very nice by the way) I will chat to people about whatever subject comes up & listen to peoples opinions (Not always facts, but opinions & also I'd be open to other people anecdotal stories) And learn something from them. I will not say "Sorry mate that's not fact based. Bugger off" in my eyes that person is still welcome to join in on the conversation. as all views can give colour to that conversation.

    This thread went off the tracks & although I requested we went back to the original subject you ignored this so there is very little direction we can go with it.
    The post you make above is asking various questions which i am happy to address:

    As you can probably tell I'm not great with a keyboard, I may not be as clever as you but you can recognise I'm trying to get a point across, you have not tried to understand me but show a level of ridicule which is not constructive nor very friendly either. I believe peoples opinions are all valid. It just seems to me that you don't see it that way.

    Your second point is inaccurate from the beginning, I have not Made any accusations about everyone one national benefits, nor have I made any judgements on anyone I do not know. As you have clearly still not read my post's you are also making assumptions about what I was trying to say. which is your failing here. Also my social circles are working people who have children & pay a mortgage, as I said before in our circle there is a few people on benefits & from my past where I grew up (People I went to school with) who are still on benefits with no interest in changing their situation (For whatever reasons they have). I feel I have been very clear on these facts (Or stories i've made up) that I am not judging people I do not know but commenting on people I do know & asking maybe for people to acknowledge that there is people who do cheat the system & My comment to that is that is is not fair they abuse a system that is not set up to help you agree that there are people who do this ? and if so do you think its fair ? Also do we do something about this or not ? I believe this is a fair and valid questions. Also ignoring that the figures you have linked to are "Estimated" figures & this 2.1% amounts to a 3.4bn pounds. it may be a small amount to some but it is still a large amount of money when we as a country are on it's arse, this money should be distributed to people who need & deserve you agree with me here ?
    As far as a Propaganda war I'm unsure what you mean (as I said before on previous post's)I don't really watch the TV or listen to the radio), I was commenting on the comments on Face book which are posted by small minded idiots (See OP).

    Of course my point of view is pointless to you because it's not based on facts but maybe to some people (me included) value other peoples opinions (and/or point of view)matter and even if a person does not have all the statistic-based facts to hand they can still make a comment regarding something that effects us all. To me this is important, this is where I believe you are missing my point. And (Although I may be wrong) that's what I believe a forum is for.

    I accept your looking at statistics & I am going from personal experiences......Your right maybe I don't know, but you still don't understand where I am coming from. yours and mine are two blatantly different angles & yet you still will not acknowledge my view. :S to be honest I don't see the point in going on with this thread as it serves no useful purpose to anyone involved. I will continue to listen to people, , fact based, ill informed, opinion based or experience based......I believe they are all welcome in having a conversation, because behind that comment is a human being, that personally I am interested in, I like to hear people talk, that why I am here. And making comments in a forum without feeling intimidated by their lack of knowledge based on proven facts makes a great forum. And can be at times a happy place to be.

    Again like my other post's on this thread I have gone out of my way to say that I really do hope I have not offended anyone or said anything that has upset anyone. I wanted to add a useful angle to the thread but it looks as if I failed & come across badly. I still believe peoples personal experiences should be valid in a conversation & people should be able to communicate their personal opinions in the way they want to. Keep smiling guys :thumbup:

    So you will not at least try to see what I'm trying to say ? this is my point.

    You cannot have a conversation with someone if you are denying that a person's experiences is not usable in a conversation.
    because facts are facts & where do these facts come from ?
    this means most facts posted on the internet are all solid and true are they ? come on I understand that you are an intelligent human being are you always 100% certain of their origin ? basically my point is (subject to your view) that anyone who is saying something that cannot be backed up by perfect evidence it cannot be brought into a conversation ? Sorry again I cannot agree with this.

    If so then lets go through all the threads & read them. I can bet a safe bet that most of the written word on this website is completely impossible to prove.
    I'm not being confrontational I just want to speak freely but have been told that I cannot. because it's possibly made up.

    I think it's very interesting that. very interesting you wont play ?

    Do you not want to understand my direction or do you want to just see your side of things & ignore the others. That my matey is not a conversation.

    Ok I will use a different direction:

    Her goes, Does anyone here have a brother or sister ?

    Are you close ?

    If that sibling is not telling you the truth would you know ?

    Hung over
    One of my best mates has made a baby come out, so we had a few beers last night while my mate tries to come down from all the adrenaline of becoming a dad for the first time.

    Baby Ariel welcome to the world, you are beautiful but uncle Fumps has now got a very sore head.

    That didn't last long then. ;)

    Gauging for an argument there are ya mate ?
    Can we please keep on topic as per rules of the forum ?

    That's precisely the point. There's no evidence. Which means all it is is an anecdotal story, which you might be misunderstanding, making up, or repeating factually accurately. I have no way of telling, which makes it effectively irrelevant.

    Irrelevant to what ? We were having a chat about the why some people are making moronic comments aimed at people who are claiming benefits which I also think is wrong (I'm not 100% sure you are fully understanding my post's).
    I stupidly tried to enter into a conversation & now I feel like I'm defending have your last word (Which you will do anyway) And make my attempts at explaining myself pointless. As you have not read my post's fully.

    And the bad thing about it is that your eyes can be misleading, personal prejudice often informs the conclusions you come to, and personal experience isn't representative of the entire nation.

    My eyes ....can be misleading ? please explain this sentence as it make no sense at all.
    Also personal prejudice comes in where? This person has actually told me & his sister (My partner) that he is ripping off the benefits system, his words, he actually tells people.his mum his sisters & friends...I am just relaying this, but I was not aware that we all have to offer empirical evidence on every comment we make. And I'm guessing that moderators will be subject to this very same rules I'm guessing ?
    Like your comments "were all fucked".....where is your evidence of this ? I have a nice warm house, my dogs are fed & happy. Things are changing not for the better but I see none of your evidence just an opinion, wait does that mean we do or do not need full evidence to place a post ? please as a moderator clear this up ?

    And..... you still have not gone back & re read my post's. Where did I generalise ? or even better use the guys I know and have known in the past as a representative of an entire nation ?....please quote me & show me where I have said that ? If you would be so kind. Seriously I'm always open to see if I am right or wrong. ya see the point of my post's is to look at the Original point from a different angle. that is all, I was under the impression that sharing personal experiences is a way of giving a better understanding of a subject .....or again am I wrong ?

    Nothing wrong with giving your point of view, but as it's a discussion forum, you have to expect to be challenged by people who disagree with you. :)

    I'm being challenged by relaying a person I know....apparently I made him up, strange that this imaginary person has managed to impregnate someone 4 times.....this makes my imagination able to carry out an immaculate conception. And these amazing beings often come round & play with my son....who I am pretty sure exists too.

    Still confused by your logic, An OP asked for an opinion, I tried to explain where some people are coming from & I find myself defending myself & being called a liar, as a person who lives by his honesty I am pretty insulted by you.

    Nope. It's anecdotal and second-hand. Plenty of people don't like admitting to mental health conditions. "I know someone who..." will never represent proper, empirical, independently verified evidence.

    Ok then.....we don't agree. you simply don't know this person So you do not have any evidence to bring to this conversation regarding a person of whom I know well do you ?. all your assumptions are just assumptions. Or am I wrong here ? My other half is his brother so she's know him much longer than I have (36 years in all)
    The good thing about personal experience is that you learn with your eyes & trust the things you experience. I don't know all the figures involved or what reference material you are using so I cannot comment on this & never was in any of my post's but I am commenting on people I know & have grown up with. Which Is what I have stated all along. If anyone does not like me trying to give a better understanding of another point of view then I am truly sorry for seeing things differently.


    Problem with that is that personal experience is unrepresentative. I mean, I know for a cast-iron fact that there are some people who abuse the benefits system, but I wouldn't dream of using that as the basis for generalisations.

    Who was generalising may I ask? unless you read my post's correctly I am going on my personal experiences with people that I have known most of my life & know well, to use this basic knowledge to generalise people is a very unfair & unbalanced way of seeing the world, one which I do not go by. I live my life in a way that I take people as I find them, I dislike using figures & percentages to represent individuals. But that's the world we live in I suppose.
    also quoting papers/media is lost on me as I don't watch TV often & I definitely don't read news papers. knowing that there are people who are abusing the system is something we all have to acknowledge have just confirmed that yourself.

    I think really its a matter of be careful what you say because someone may misread your intentions. I shall stay in the happier sections of this forum as I have learned my lesson.

    As you were lol

    Nope. It's anecdotal and second-hand. Plenty of people don't like admitting to mental health conditions. "I know someone who..." will never represent proper, empirical, independently verified evidence.

    Problem with that is that personal experience is unrepresentative. I mean, I know for a cast-iron fact that there are some people who abuse the benefits system, but I wouldn't dream of using that as the basis for generalisations. Benefit fraud represents a tiny percentage of welfare spending, and most benefits go to people who are actually in work. This Daily Mail idea of a whole generation of skivers sponging off the state is deliberate divide-and-rule class politics.

    Ok then.....we don't agree (you simply dont know this person). but I am happy with this. :thumbup:

    And you know that how, exactly?

    Sorry was away decorating my sons room

    He's my partner's brother, we see him daily & he tells people freely that he does not suffer from depression.
    Is that enough evidence ?

    Fumps the way you lump addicts into your category of people scamming money shows a real lack of understanding about addiction. I mean... do you really think a vulnerable crack addicted man is going to be the top of the barrel for employment? Addicts need support and understanding to come off drugs. One of those things would be eligibility to benefits in order for financial pressure to be taken off so the addict can focus on making appropriate changes to their lives. No drug addict is going to stop taking drugs if their reality involves no money, potential homelessness and financial panic. I mean why bother? Things might be shit but at least the drugs stop you caring that its shit.

    Speaking as an ex addict (Speed & Heroin) I understand addiction pretty well. I beat my addictions because I started to live for someone else. Everyone is different.

    Again guys I'm not defending any hatred that is aimed at anyone (As I do not agree with small minded victimisation), my post's are from my own experiences only and do not rely on percentages or government figures (Some people often cry lies & conspiracy then use percentages to back their own argument up, who releases these percentages ? were you a part of that survey ? where does the numbers come from?)
    What I said originally is trying to give others examples of where the frustration comes from. Remember guys this is still a place where opinions should be able to be voiced freely without being singled out. I'm not making any of this up & I am starting to get to areas of my personal life that I feel uncomfortable talking about so please let me say my part with the respect I'm trying to show here.

    My response to the OP was that I agree the state should be there to help people who need & deserve help, but there are some people out there who do abuse this system & I personally don't think that is fair.

    Yes Elfqueen that's the point I'm trying to make in a way, both of the above people if challenged would pass scrutiny because they know how to play the system. They know how to fill out the forms & how to act when in meetings with the benefits agency. They know which doctors to see to get their certs & it is wrong, but they are getting away with this. It isn't right & we all know this. By the way Bloke #2 is 2nd generation unemployed his three kids all have their own council flats & he fills out all their forms & helps them do the same as he does. one of these kids is 15 & a mother already. And I worry for them.

    I will come forward and tell you my experiences (I'm an open book) in regards to this, I'm from a small ex mining town where unemployment is really a big problem & I grew up in a family with my dad doing the job dodging, he was too idle to get a job and life sucked, growing up in a real rough council estate, we had bugger all money, all our clothes were hand me downs & we were considered chav scum. it made me want to work & have a full time job, I've never been out of employment all my life. But I grew up with people all around me who did their utmost to not get a job & to my knowledge they still are doing this, the main difference is now half of them are addicts & the other half have kids & are still not in employment.

    As I have said before I have no issues regarding anyone seeking help when they need it from the benefit state when help is needed but there are people who do abuse this system I know these people personally, most of my school friends are either on the dole or an addict. Then there is my friends in Leeds, I have had a good think & I can count 25 people who are actively abusing the system & have for most of their lives.

    I just don't think it's fair....... this is my attitude anyway.
    By the way I don't want to offend anyone all I can go on is my own experiences I don't really trust statistics as such just what I see & experience.

    Munnin~ mate I do understand your feelings, there has been times when I have heard him showing off about how he has got through yet another medical saying "that's it for another six months" and laughing about it. I find it hard to be around him nowadays to be honest.

    Please do not read my following post as me agreeing with these "Hate" statements because I really don't. I do understand the anger but not for the people who need help through no fault of their own. please read my post fully & I hope I do not offend anyone with what I say.

    I think the anti benefits aggressive mentality is coming through because there ARE lots of people who do abuse the system, I don't think that anyone has a problem with people who are ill and cannot work. The main stream comments are aimed at people who can work but don't because they can't be bothered. This is causing a strain on the system that is there to help people who need help & lets be honest it IS unfair that people who are claiming benefits for a good reason are having their benefits reduced & in some cases stopped because others are abusing the system.

    I don't think a single person who make these statements are aiming them at someone who is disabled or even those who cannot work because of circumstance. The anger is becoming more palpable because there are people & families (Sometimes 3 generations of them) that wont work because they don't want to.
    I have a full time job & most of the people I know do also, none of us want to get out of bed & go to work but we do because well that's the world we live in. I think this is where the frustration lies. I strongly doubt anyone will chastise a person for using the benefits system for its correct use, it's the abuse of the system that is causing bad feelings.

    I may be wrong in this, some people are small minded idiots but the majority are angry because of the fact that these people are getting away with it & have been for too long. My above statement by the way is true to my life and experiences.
    In my circle of friends there are a few people who are on benefits who just abuse the system & have been all their lives (They are now in their 40's & 50's).....They will do anything to get free money & a few of them are on Incapacity Benefits, I know for a fact that there is nothing wrong with them & they are fully fit to work but they have just become adept at playing the system to get as much as they can.

    These are true stories & will shed some light as to where some of the frustrations lie:

    Bloke #1
    He is on incapacity benefit for being a registered alcoholic (He isn't at all)he gets Incapacity benefits, council tax & rent paid for but also gets money from the Benefits agency for a weekly alcohol budget !!! he is blatantly abusing the system & often shows off about it. He also gets crisis loans so he can go on nights out & festivals. He will sometimes spend his benefit payment in the pub & then go in to see them & get extra payment because he has not got enough money to live on, he does this quite often because he knows they will give him i say he is not an alcoholic he just takes the p*ss on purpose because he knows how to play the system.

    Bloke #2
    He is also on incapacity benefit (Bloke #1 showed him how to play the system to get onto this) he claims that he is depressed (Which he isn't at all) but he gets money from the system whenever he can and also shows off how much money he is on. He will often abuse the crisis loan system as well for extra pocket money or just to buy a new phone. He sometimes will get a job (Low paid) not pay his rent or council tax, spend all his wages & not pay bills, then get fired on purpose then go back on benefits & they cover all his debts. He does this all the time. then will work on the festival circuit to get in to them for free spending money he has got from a crisis loan.

    These two people in some cases have a better standard of living than most of us & we are working full time. there are a few more people in my life I could include in this but I feel like I've waffled on enough lol
    One of my mates works full time & is actually diagnosed with clinical depression, but he still manages to keep a full time job down, we all know how much he struggles but he keeps working & fights to keep his head above water, he finds it very insulting that Bloke#2 is using this excuse to claim more money & dodge from getting a job.

    The frustration does lie with these kinds of people who abuse the system & because of this abuse reduces the living standards of people who are claiming benefits because they have no choice. I have to agree I do find it disgusting that people are allowed to get away this, it's simply not fair that some people take from the system & think it's funny.

    I hope my post is taken in the way it's meant, I have no issues at all about people seeking help when they need it but I have no empathy for people who take from the people & families who need the help of the state.

    Woods and forests.

    Sitting under a tree, looking up and letting my mind get lost in the branches and leaves - can't really explain what happens but it does affect me in a deep and spiritual sense

    Yes I totally agree, being in an old wood.......nothing like it

    Back when I was a bad lad (In all kinds of trouble) I used to go to a small very old forest known locally as "Devils Elbow" It has a very old- warm feeling to it. I used to go there & just be invisible to others, I'd literally spend all day there. It was a place that made me feel safe. When I got older I moved away & have not been back there for about 13 years.....
    Then one day I took my other half & my son there to show them where I used to go & play. she loved the atmosphere (she is very spiritual), she told me that the place really liked me being there and she was sure the place was smiling at me.

    I'm not a spiritual person as such, but i do live on my feelings (If that makes sense?!?)

    I was thinking about this the other day.
    Here goes, If I am giving erm special attention to a lady I would much prefer erm a clear run than having to beat around the bush & get branches stuff stuck in the can put a serious downer on proceedings.

    If that makes sense

    Definately the vale of Avalon/Glastonbury

    I do get a big hit off the 12 apostles on Ilkley moor. Unfortunately I cannot stay for long in places that have strong energies as they make me feel ill. I once stood in a place where a white witch said there was a energy vortex, I was on the spot for about a 20 seconds & I almost was physically sick. I cant even hold powerful crystals for long without them hurting my hand.

    no idea why. I was once given some red jasper at a festival & when I got home my son who was about 6 at the time picked it up & held it, the smooth stone sheared in half in his hand & he dropped it looking worried, i picked it up & it was red hot.....We both dont mess with energies, were not sure why but they seem to bother us both very vividly.

    Not sure of why these things happen to us.

    sorry I replied to this thread & could not find it again.....then started to think I dream-dud it :insane:

    Pm sent now !