Posts by koolaid

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UKHippy is a long running online community and of likeminded people exploring all interpretations on what it means to be living an alternative lifestyle -- we welcome discussions on everything related to sustainability, the environment, alternative spirituality, music, festivals, politics and more -- membership of this website is free but supported by the community.

    I enjoy my job..I work about 48 hours a week....But I don't mind cos I do it all so my little one can have a better life....and that is all that matters to me..Her having the best life there is....(and yes I know money doesn't buy happiness, but it makes it much easier to be able to broaden her mind with travel and experiences)


    So I think in my case working my ass off is well worth it (my mum and dad did it for me so that I was able to become the open minded inquisitive person with some amazing experiences to look back on...so its the least I can do)

    Bloody hell lighten up.....For a bunch of hippies you aint half stressy!!


    I am not or have never been trolling this thread.. all the points I have made I feel validated in saying..I'll tell you what though sometimes this place can feel little being descended on by a group of vultures if you don't agree exactly with what the majority of people think....There is very little acceptance for anykind of alternative viewpoint from the norm of the forum...


    I talked to some of my friends about this thread, isome of its ideas and the abuse that medical staff were getting and the so called "norm" on here of the terible experience hospital is....and they were shocked..really shocked and reassured me (crikey I am gonna get it for this) that the view on this thread is a minority viewpoint IN THEIR OPINION!


    I sometimes wonder if the people posting on here are getting a warped view of what really happens out there due to the insular nature of this forum. Now I am not for one second suggesting people don't have friends outside the forum, but most people on here (myself not included) are living very alternative lifestyles...Lifestyles that sadly are often looked down upon by the general public/professionals (wrongly) so maybe the opinions you form of others not living that lifestyle/having those idea's just become reinforced by being on here and talking to people who live (for want of a better phrase) under the same banner..Kind of a jvalidation of your ideals by being in a majority you normally are not..


    Right I am way off topic...so I will shut up and let you get back to discussing births, but I want to say before I stop an apology if anyone was offended by my (throwaway) comment which was me just being a sarky git after doing a long shift (no excuse I know)

    have enormous respect for you still being interested in this thread Rich :) thankyou :) tell me to jog on if am gettin too in ya face ;) loves xxxx


    Nah your not to in my face Sarah..You have your opinion I have mine.....I just think everyone is looking at it in black and white terms...There is good and bad in everything......


    I do think some people are getting a bit out of order with their criticisms though of people/places who are just doing their best to help...

    hospitals are nothing more than a breeding ground for germs filled with egotistical arseholes that like to tell you how little your opinion is worth.


    I hope you are never seriously ill and need hospital treatment....


    I can count at least 10 people who are still alive who I love dearly thanks to the medical knowledge of doctors in hospitals..Not one of whom was a egotistical arsehole..Not one of whom did anything, but save their lives..Not one of whom ever asked for any thanks...


    All that was done in the hospital was the lives of my friends and family were saved..and for that I will be forever grateful....Let me repeat that..My friends and family are alive now because of the treatment they received in hospital


    Your above comment is total and utter bollocks.....in fact I will go further it is total bullshit...amd it is totally out of fucking order....That comment is a total fucking disgrace....and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying it.......(if this offends you then I don't really give a fuck anymore and I am biting my tongue massively on this post).....

    From the Economist March 2011


    "A definitive statistical answer to the relative perils of home and hospital births is unlikely. Randomised trials, which are the gold standard in medical research, will be tricky to impossible: women are unlikely to accept a researcher’s arbitrary instruction about where they should give birth. As with many other aspects of child-rearing, birth will come down to parental disposition—whether for a hospital’s bright lights and plentiful pain relief, or for the familiar comforts of home."



    I think the point people are trying to make though is things are less likely to go wrong if you are at home :shrug:


    There is no evidence of this I can find...There is evidence that "normal" births are just as safe in the home environment as in hospital as the studies put on here show...But where is the evidence that things are less likely" to go wrong in a home birth? There is the likelihood of faster intervention by medical staff (which I suspect you will question if the intervention was actually needed), but nothing I can find on it being less likely..


    Also out of interest a meta-analysis of over 500,000 births in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology (AJOG) concluded that neonatal death (a baby dying in the first 28 days after birth) was three times more likely in a home birth..I am not sure that I totally believe the figures quoted but it is just something else to think about and conclude that maybe you are not necessarily totally right.

    Statistically though, you're probably more likely to die in a kitchen accident. Is cooking described as "fucking dangerous"? Danger relates to relative risk. Walking down the street isn't considered "fucking dangerous" because you MIGHT lose your footing and fall under a car. If your experience of birth was normal or widespread, then yes, giving birth could reasonably be described as "fucking dangerous".


    Billions and billions of people walk down the street everyday with no problems though so the actual statistical risk is very low compared to the amount of people who do it....Compared to the number of women who give birth each day and suffer problems the statistical chance (while still low) of birth complications is much much higher than walking down the street..Therefore you could say that statistically birth is "fucking dangerous" especially when compared to walking down the street.


    For example I imagine of the population of London which is 7.5 million (http://www.london.gov.uk/who-r…ts-and-figures/population) about 90 % (my own calculation here) of those walk down a street in any given day...372 of those get injured enough to require an ambulance (http://www.londonambulance.nhs…_awareness_week_2011.aspx).....That is a very small percentage (0.0012%)...Whereas recent studies have shown that 12% of women having home births need to be transferred to a hospital due to complications (Johnson, K.C., et al. "Outcomes of Planned Home Births With Certified Professional Midwives: Large Prospective Study in North America." BMJ. June 18, 2005, Vol. 330, pp. 1416–1419.) That is a reletively high percentage and one I would say carries significant risk. Imagine if walking down the street carried a 12% risk of ending up in hospital??


    The above article also states that home births are as safe as hospital births, as long as nothing goes wrong! (my point all along)


    NOTE: I would also have compared kitchen asccidents to birth based on how many people use kitchens a day but I have no statistics on kitchen accidents..I strongly suspect though that statistically you are a lot less likely to die in a kitchen accident or at least be hospitilised)

    You are all still missing my point.....That "if" (however unlikely it is) a birth goes wrong then you are better off being in a hospital with everything to hand and medical professionals at your side than being at home where you will need to be taken to the hospital...


    Those minutes of getting to the hospital can mean life or death.....and yes it is rare that things go wrong, but if they do I would want my family to have every chance of surviving..That is more important to me (and my family) than being in a "natural" environment....


    Which is why I would always try and talk people out of home births


    Are there any studies that contradict these findings? Are there any statistics to support your assertion that giving birth is very dangerous? Not being argumentative... just genuinely curious :)


    I am sure there is...Am at work at the moment so unable to get on PubMed etc..I will have a look when I get home and get back to you :D

    Also you know of no one who has had problems with their home birth (which is great) whereas I have seen the opposite so I have formed an opinion that I would not want anyone I love to have one...The natural homebirths I have seen have often gone wrong...and my opinions are based on these experiences...they may be rare but as I said before I am not willing to take any risks with my kids however small the chance of something going wrong is...I could never forgive myself if something happened and nothing could be done because we were at home instead of next to an operating thestre

    Do none of you get at all that medical professionals do all this stuff because they are trying to help!!!!


    That science has proved this type of monitoring and intervention will increase succesful outcomes at births....


    Otherwise why would it be done??? As mentioned before the mortality rate before medical science improved was horrendous for women and babies...


    In the 1900's 1 in 100 births resulted in death of the mum or baby...In 2005 that was 11 in 100,000...


    The statistics don't lie medical monitoring and intervention has lowed mortality rates in births a thousand fold....


    No birth is not a disease but it was fucking dangerous before "real" medicine got involved

    especially when those 'experts' are more interested in profits,targets and convienience for them than in the women theyre supposed to be supporting..


    Hmmm nice generalisation there and probably the most insulting thing I have ever read on this forum to the hard working men and women of medicine in the 6 years of posting on here...


    Jesus just spend a day on any ward or come out in an ambulance and you will see that we massively give a fuck about our patients...We couldnt give a crap about targets or convenience (lol convenience..if only you knew) or profit......I give up my christmases, my easters, my holidays....I have to put up with horrrific things, I see things that no sane human being would ever want to see....


    and I do it because I because I want to help them...because I want to try and make it better in every possible way I can for them....Because I give a fuck!


    Seriously your comment that "experts" aren't interested (I know it strictly isn't my field but I am sure the doctors and nurses in maternity feel just as strongly about their patients as I do) is so deeply insulting..

    But hospital births are obviously not some kind of torture.. which your post and I quote says "they are" is bollocks...


    I am amazed that some of you find it so hard to believe that hospitals can provide wonderful experiences..For people who claim to be hippies you are not very open to ideas that contradict with your own.....


    I have never said anything aganinst home births except for safety reasons and why I personally wouldn't choose one for my family....Yet the intolerance here towards hospitals is incredible (purely based on your own experience with no apparent concept of others having good times...Would you say people should never go to pubs because you once had a bad experience in one??) and as I mentioned before gravely insulting to the many dedicated men and women who work in them...


    Can I just go on record here as saying the hospital birth for my daughter was amazing, it was the greatest day of my life, the staff were fantastic, the care perfect and all in all was everything that me and my partner could ever have asked for....I cannot thank the hospital and the staff enough for their wonderful kindness
    CA

    I know LOTS of women who have had very traumatic experiences with hospital birth (and most of them without any real labour complications and minimal risk).


    and I unfortunately have seen women and babies die in home births who had they been in hospital would more than likely have survived....


    My point is home births can be just as traumatic.......

    OK Koolaid, but some of us have had VERY traumatic hospital experiences - and oftentimes not even with any actual birth complications.


    and I am not disputing that fact, but I can count on one finger the amount of people I know who have had bad experiences while I know literally hundreds who have had great experiences....


    My point is you are all saying how much better home births are and I am disagreeing...I think you are all entitled to your very valid opinions but I think you are wrong...


    Whnen it comes to my children I want every single piece of 21st century medicine in the next room....I don't believe the child will have any psychological impact from the birth and I have nothing but positive things to say about 99% of hospital births I have witnessed....


    I don't give a rats ass about natural, I just want my child to be in the best place and to be safe...


    As I said earlier I know this is not a popular view on here and I am in a minority, but I think in a place like this I have the right to speak my mind and be in a minority without fear..


    Chldbirth is amazing whether it is done at home or in a operating theatre...

    Why? just incase something goes wrong? I believe that women can give birth wherever they happen to feel is an appropriate place for them to have their baby...I also believe that, just as in nature, female human beings KNOW how to birth... just like animals know. I also know that birth can be orgasmic, empowering and a rite of passage... i also know that it can be violent, savage and heartbreaking... such is life. Memories may not be stored conciously but subconciously they are very much so stored. There has been research undertaken using mothers who had traumatic birth experiences and their adult offspring who needed to not have known veyr much about the way they were born... under hypnosis, children were recounting specific details about their births which they could only have remembered.... it shouldn't have been physically possible for me to manage to move my bowel out of the surgeon's way during my 3rd c-section, using only the power of intent.... ;) lol... oh but i did :D and avoided the call for a general anaesthetic twice i thank yowwww ... we don't know what anyone remembers... we don't know anything.... just the tip of the iceburg ... but... we do know that women have better birth out comes the more relaxed, private and undisturbed they feel (emergencies aside obviously...) xxx


    I really like you Sarah I think you are a lovely person so I am really biting my tongue....Hypnosis is at very best an unreliable source of knowledge..Lets not even get into the false memory abuse cases which destroyed families from hypnotic recall and were actually nothing but made up memories..


    I would love to see some of this research you talk about..I am assuming it will be published in respected journals and will be peer reviewed.....If not then can it really be counted as "research"...(I have had a quick look through pubmed and am unable to find any articles or studies so far of the type you say)


    As for saying that we don't know what anyone remembers that isn't strictly true and I can point you towards many peer reviewed articles based on fact that explore memory in infants...


    Also yes females know how to give birth like animals..The problem is that now we are bi-peds our pelvic bone has narrowed to allow us to stand making birth a far more traumatic and complicated experience than it is for animals....


    As for your first comment would I want my partner to give birth in a hospital just in case something went wrong.....Yes that is exactly why....I believe in medicine...I don't believe in just hoping for the best or letting the nature run its course..

    A baby might not visually remember being born...but surely a baby would be effected psychologically in some way based on the experiences of the mother. If the mother is birthing happily, naturally and in an environment she is comfortable with then surely this is better for the babies psychological development then if the mother is feeling out of control and very distressed.


    But I know literally 100's of peoploe who had perfectly happy hospital births...There was no distress or loss of control as you put it...Just an experience where they felt safe and looked after....If you read this thread and had no experience of this planet you would think hospital births are some kind of torture....

    I still believe in hospital births every single time over home and so do most women I know as friends...(maybe thats why they are friends as they have similar viewpoints) Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one..... Babys don't know where they are born or won't remember I should say due to neurones in the brain being unable to form long term memories at that age...it just isn't physically possible for them...

    :clap:Love you all :hug:I attended my first homebirth group last night and found that there ARE women in my area that have done it and support homebirth and now I'm a lot more confident that I won't end up in hospital being tortured by "experts".

    Tortured by experts....that is an insult to the men and women who devote their lives to helping with births...Without those experts a lot of mums and babies would die...If you want a home birth then all power to you but please don't come out with such wild untrue derogotory statements about what happens in hospital

    Obviously each to their own but homebirth is not something I would ever want for my children....but it has to be the individuals decision.....


    It's not as if they are going to remember being born at home....