Artificial Intelligence and Surveillance

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  • I think we're ok here for now as the artificial intelligence data has to be acted upon by the government who are patently lacking the necessary intelligence to make what they would consider good use of such.

    Machines leading idiots, a change from donkeys and lions.

  • China is just taking the piss. There’s surveillance and there’s crushing the spirit of its oppressed.

    placing government grasses in the homes and (even the marital bed) of detained husbands/prisoners. That’s too twisted. That is haveing all the cakes and licking cream off cakes still for sale.

    Uighurs who were spared the camps now make up the most intensely surveilled population on Earth. Not all of the surveillance is digital. The Chinese government has moved thousands of Han Chinese “big brothers and sisters” into homes in Xinjiang’s ancient Silk Road cities, to monitor Uighurs’ forced assimilation to mainstream Chinese culture. They eat meals with the family, and some “big brothers” sleep in the same bed as the wives of detained Uighur men.

    It will be a eventful day when the CCP is overthrown. I can imagine the retribution and subsequent fear of reprisals from victims of the Chinese wickedness.

    I wonder if Im/my internet activity is of any interest to China. I’m still using 3 on a Huawei dongle.

    FUCK President Xi’s. I hope all your nightmares are in Stereo & the World rises against your Communist bullshit.

  • Yes, it would seem that in China at present we have all the very worst that both the Capitalist and the Communist regimes are capable of, powerfully mixed together. State Capitalism.

    Just what many 'leaders' of many Eastern and Western countries would like too, of course, which is why the AI technology is being exported. Oppression dressed as welfare: the usual story.

    But it doesn't stop there, because if your country imports their AI and uses it to oppress, it may well in turn be surveilling you, and gathering information about you which can in turn be used against you and your country by the State that manufactured it, ensuring a gradual Chinese takeover.

    "Who knows what bondage goes with Tleilaxu eyes?"

  • I think surveillance has a place in this modern world. For safety, security and crime reduction/accountability. The bigger picture, if you feel a need to avoid detection, methods can be diploid. I’m all in favour of ID cards to match DNA, Photo ID etc. In England since 2000 on arrest and charge our fingerprints have been taken. Prior to that as teenagers we had identifying markings “tattoos, piercings, scars” documented by the police. Our dental records are available.

    I’m sure there are plenty of folk hiding in plain sight of/amongst “us” and the law who would like to think they are home and scot free.

    What I’m not happy about, is being continually monitored in both movement and communication. I’ve nothing to hide, but that doesn’t mean it’s anyone else’s business where I go and what I say, or research etc.

  • One things for sure and that's in the not so distant future we will all be tied into the collective.

    Like it or not, tech has advanced us further and faster than in many ways we can keep up.

    AI and a new generation super cooled Quantum computers will link us cerebrally to the net one day. Let's face it as soon as they crack the interface between our minds and the world wide web then its the beginning of a new dawn.

    We are mentally almost ready for the must have interface, Already we cling to our phones and struggle to put our devices down.

    Each up and coming generation becomes less receptive to the older ways and more receptive to new innovative ideas.

    Balance the advance in AI, amazing advances in robotics, 3 axis printing of new materials, solar and fuel cell tech, even advances in nuclear and one day the ability to interface with the human brain. I honestly can't see us going into deep space, but I can see our consciousness projected using new and exciting ideas.

    Sadly the little hairless ape for all its so called wisdom is a fragile creature and its not figured out yet that its not destined to travel into the distant solar system because its genetically tied into its planet through millions of years of slow and painful evolution.

    Sorry, bit off thread.. rant rant

  • Of course, one thing is very easily forgotten in all this theoretical extrapolation about AI in the future. It all depends on electronics, which we tend to take for granted.

    But a few heavy discharges from the sun could knock most of this out in minutes; a blackout that could last months if it was more than a brief one-off discharge. By which time our 'civilisation' would have slipped back several hundred, if not several thousand years, and most of our population would have perished.

    A few special nuclear blasts at high altitude over the target areas would have much the same effect, by creating very powerful electromagnetic pulses which would destroy all and any electronic equipment underneath it over a very wide area, unless it was shielded to best military standards.

    Without electronics there will be no communications, no power, no transport, no food, very soon no civilisation, because at present our civilisation is held together by electronics.

  • it won’t be long before protein chips (not healthy crisps) and bio systems replace the silicon diode/chip, leading to reduced vulnerable electronic circuitry used in Ai control. Fuel cells are on the cusp of change too. Plasma and ionised electro magnetic interference will be minimised in development of these new technologies

    Our worry is the present design and assembly of Ai has begun and is led/developed by those who seek its potential power and usefulness of control. Government/military/space research and exploration. It should be developed from the beginning for only good purposes, with a beloved ideology. Sure enough once these Ai get connected to one another, they/it/them will learn the wickedness of ones potential power.

  • Interesting theory, but how do you explain co-ordinated behaviour of, say, mini-drone swarm targeting in bio-system terms? When targets may have to be changed over vast distances within seconds? How can a bio-system do this?

    So far as the future of AI is concerned I would fully agree: exactly same as most any other human endeavour, the bad boys get to be in charge.

  • It’s not for us laymen to understand how these systems will be controlled/protected. Last year I listened to Ben Goretzel. He has worked on the theory/concept of Ai since the late 1960’s. Probably the original “hippy” & the future is orange thinkers.
    I like his view on Ai as he has tried to get there before the military does. Although he has seen who has been funding development throughout his years.

    Worth listening to his podcast.
    but this one I recommend watching first.

  • Us laymen understand how the present systems work, so we need to know the fundamentals of how any future system will work before we can give it credibility.

    Otherwise we are like living the faith or religious dream: 'believing' it will happen and it will be this or that....

  • I'd like some more definition of the terms used.


    Current pretences toward the claim that AI is meaningful remain unfounded. AI is not of maturity and doesn't function outside of limited equations yet.


    The same might be said of humans, or at least some of us humans🤔.

    Cant say I care if ai expunges me from existence. I would prefer a quick and painless end though if any super AI is reading this🙂.

    I imagine many do care but I'd question why they have committed themselves to having to do so😢⚠️

  • Ben Goertzel say’s, in the late 1970/80’s people were worried Ai would become far more intellectual than humans and therefore more powerful and as Ai learned for itself. At which point Ai would start killing off the humans.

    By 2000/10 people worried that Ai would make most people unemployed by taking over their jobs,, before Ai killed them.

  • Ai will have full access to the internet, it will delegate learning/problem solving to individual computers and collectively share the resulting information. The speed by which it will learn could be astounding. Looking through the human historical archives/internet. Ai may just conclude we get it so very wrong so often and decide we are unfit to rule.

  • Anything working on pure logic would decide we are unfit to rule.

    Take a look at our human laws on crimes and punishment; few are based on logic.

    If they were based on logic we would have very few criminals left alive, because logic brings the question of resources into the equation; that solution costing least resources and time is the one taken.

    The same would go for dissenters; those who actively disagree with the powers-that-be. It is easier and cheaper to dispose of them than to accommodate them. There is no human kindness in decisions taken on pure logic, just the cold equations....

  • Speak for yourself... Im not unfit to rule.

    pure logic in this context does still require a basis of assumptions. Does it not?

    Ie... Purest logic might not apply benevelonce to to assets gained through violence and oppression....

    Pure logic might recognise the finite nature of earth and the humans who inhabit it and apply a more transient sense of shared ownership rights.

    Excellent and testing statement oldKeith.

    Keep up the good work...

  • I was speaking collectively, about the human race, as should be obvious from the context.

    Pure logic cannot make assumptions, only calculations. It can only base its decisions on whatever information it has at its disposal at the time a decision is made. You are perhaps, confusing human logic with machine logic.

    Human logic might well take into account the benevolence of some actions, and not others. But (some) human logic makes assumptions and even uses a moral code in taking decisions.

    There is no logical reason for machine logic to do so.

    As we are probably all aware, Asimov tried to bring a sense of decency into his rules for robots,interweaving machine logic with human safety, so that robots could not harm humans. The obvious problem here is that there is no way of ensuring incorporation of these 'laws' into every type of robot made in a thousand different places, many of which would be military robots. And anyway, once robots began to write their own logical programming, and took into consideration the history of the human race, any such laws would no doubt be discarded.

  • Machine logic misapplied in this way is an abstract concept. Worse still: it is a falsehood.

    Even machine logic has to factor in the decay of its constituting parts. If not then the logic is illogical.

    There is no reason to believe that extrapolated machine logic has any meaning.

    If the machine were truly intelligent then I'd probably arrive at a different conclusion.

  • Machine logic misapplied in this way is an abstract concept. Worse still: it is a falsehood.

    A concept can only be rated a falsehood, or given any other judgemental rating, if it is measured against a set of standards, by which it can be deemed to be a falsehood, etc.

    So by whose standards are you rating it a falsehood? Human ones?

    This is one of the problems which always arise when we discuss AI. We only have our own standards to rate anything else.

    But to a different type of intelligence to our own, the ratings might be seen to be quite different.

  • last year I followed Adam Savage as he took receipt of a Ai robotic “dog” called spot. Straight out of the box, Adam wanted to see what this Ai could do. Over the following 6 months he was charged with finding faults/limits and pushing the development of Spot the Ai robot dog through its paces.
    This first video shows what we have achieved so far with a Ai semi automated dog robot. Adam used to present the show Myth Busters. In the few moths Adam had with the robot, he built a rickshaw and got spot to pull it. Since the lockdown, testing has been minimal, but the 3rd video shoes how these semi autonomous machines have and are developing.

  • Well, it don't look like that robot can do anything a dog can't do. And it can't do a lot of things a dog can do. And it has to have a guy guiding it all the time.

    So that's a bit like a dog, but a whole lot worse...:shrug:

    Not impressed; I guess I'll keep the dog....:)

  • That’s just the start for this type of “out of the box” Ai. Each person will add to its potential Development. The external computing power and therefore it’s learning capability is endless. We had to start somewhere and the basics were the hardest to perfect. It’s also one hell of a dog if you consider all it learns will be carried forward to its pups. A dog lasts 20 Christmases, 15,000 years of domestication and most dogs will still shit on the carpet and won’t clean up after themselves.

    Science advances one death at a time.

  • It doesn't love you like a real dog. Also the things a dog does wrong - the occasional shit on the carpet - are part of what endears them to you and vice versa. It's about learning to be loved as an imperfect being and loving imperfection right back. It's the element of free will, the loyalty is given, not programmed.

    Having said that, I appreciate this is an industrial robot and as such has some important contribution to make.

    The ability to do stairs is very scary - stairs are what saved us from the daleks!