The aftermath

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  • Well, with events happening in the biggies such as amazon, protests and demands by workers I think these biggies are going to see the cheap labour they've been taking advantage of for a long time, as a cheaper alternative to upgrading, a liability and finally use their hoarded profits on a real binge of automation ready for the next crisis so they don't suffer any down time or profit loss.

    Unskilled/semi skilled labour unemployment will rocket and highlight the excessive already done recent importation of unskilled immigrants who now have rights to stay to point where even a universal basic income is probably unaffordable to placate matters.

    What's next?

  • IMO most money now exists only in the abstract. I mean that at the end of the day there are no people with briefcases of money going from bank to bank to pay what is outstanding on a balance sheet.

    If people in an environment have money they will spend it.

    Many / most transactions are online now - see above re abstract money.

    So in a way it doesnt really matter how many people are here and receiving UBI. IMO.

    It could make for a much better world. People will be free to give their time voluntarily to whatever their passion or interest is. Jobs, such as there are, will be available for those who want to work and those who don't want to work can do the voluntary thing. Grow veg, do up old buildings so they become habitable, help older people, disabled people, children who need extra help with learning and so on.

    On the other hand, perhaps we will learn to pay the value of things / investors will learn to take smaller profits / Amazon will learn to pay their workers better. Perhaps, got distracted there... a pig flew past.

    I'm looking at Doughnut Economics. Interesting.

  • Human jobs get replaced by automation only when it becomes cheaper to do so. We've seen this through huge swathes of manufacturing in the past, and now it's affecting tens of thousands of white-collar jobs.

    You see it everywhere: the local Sainsburys store where once there stood ten checkouts, you are now lucky to get one of the remaining two in use. Instead you have to use the machine. Fine if you have one or two items, not so good bending down and moving a whole trolley-load across the plate and off again into your bags. (So I go elsewhere and they lose my trade).

    My local bank where there used to be thirteen clerks, now only has one or two, so you have to queue. Then you get approached by some smartly-dressed person who asks what are you in the bank for? Only cash? Can you use the machine? (I explain that I am a socialist, and like to keep people in a job. I like doing this, to see the reactions! Shocked, they move on, probably wondering what religion is a socialist, having only ever known a capitalist society.).

    In Japan, I have been told, they now have robots in banks, instead of clerks. Fine until you need something they are not programmed for. They operate on a limited choices system. If your request doesn't fit into one of their four or five or six choices, they are useless. But given time, they will be improved, so long as it costs less than hiring a human.

    All of which brings us inevitably to conspiracy theory. What will those in power do to get rid of the tens of millions - perhaps hundreds of millions - of workers who are - or will be - no longer needed?

  • My local bank where there used to be thirteen clerks, now only has one or two, so you have to queue. Then you get approached by some smartly-dressed person who asks what are you in the bank for? Only cash? Can you use the machine? (I explain that I am a socialist, and like to keep people in a job. I like doing this, to see the reactions! Shocked, they move on, probably wondering what religion is a socialist, having only ever known a capitalist society.).

    That is brilliant oldkeith and can will be applied in so many situations. :thumbup:

  • I use the same argument in Asda. People really do need to use the manned tills or tellers! It is important to keep people in work. It is also important to remember that for a lot of people the weekly small chat at the bank or supermarket is the only social interaction they have.

  • Anyone touching the NHS would be lynched -- but, given that Boris has completely gone against the Tory old guard (AKA 'there is such a thing as society'), there will definitely be attempts to justify massive cuts to pretty much everything -- as such he'll have a tough job in defending it.

    I think there will be a reckoning with China in order to recoup the amount of money being spent -- which I believe could end up with us defaulting on any international debt. This will be justified because they've been caught lying about the impact of this disease and warned about pandemics in the past -- but they will accuse the US of using false intelligence and try to sanction us, which will potentially lead to military threats etc.

    So 1/5th of the world population will be mightily pissed off.

    That would lead to us needing to slowly revert to more localised economies -- not for everything as people like 'stuff', but absolutely for essential items that otherwise need to be imported.

  • Totally agree with all this, in the west we give our leaders on both sides of the pond a lot of hastle, yes trump is an utter idiot, and greedy.

    The west has also paid hard for trying to cut carbon and rightly it has tried (in comparison to china) in the past (questionable at the moment) to improve work conditions.

    We grill our politicians and people at the top and rich and famous and powerful say we must cut carbon and improve air quality while still buying stuff from china and india where working conditions and in india child labour still goes on.

    Yet non of say i m not buying it.

    I m trying not to pick on india as its realy is going to need our help it will hit india the worst i think people there are poorer and live in densly populated shanty towns but it needs sorting the social divide there is far far worse than the west, but no one ever calls out india.

    We always pick on ourselves and America and yes we have a long way to go, but how can we blindly keep consuming goods from the far east when they basicly do what they like, pump out co2 and abuse there workers.

    I did a patio for a cutomer last year the pavers and water feature came from china, they had plenty of money sadly the man died a year later but they looked online and it came from china,

    Seriously the carbon on that would be mental.

    I did it, it looked beatiful green and many coloured stones and flags, but i hated its heritage, maybe its was made in a nice family stone yard i kept telling myself, but the other side of me thought maybe its half of the himalayers gone with some one being worked to death.

    but electric goods and amazon, people tell me to get on amazon I dont have an account i hate amazon but I feel I have to have an amazon account especially at the moment possibly to get parts for work etc..

    Maybe our leaders need to be Trump like when all this is over, draw a line in the sand say right whats your carbon/pollution/ and workers status, if you dont comply we are not trading with you and put sanctions on.

    We just cannot be cathartic and hard on ourselves and our industry when all other countries dont bother, they consume gallons of water and coal and fuel to wash jeans, grow crops, power industry.

    I always look at like a dinosour because I dont use amazon or e bay but we seem gladly to give these people power to dominate.


    As paul says nationalise all health care,

    I would also like to see on a separate tax just for nhs, ( like on your old school pay packet youd have nat ins, nhs tax, etc.

    And global system of ethics and trade no compliance, no trade.

    I guess we are at the anger stage of this pandemic, we ve had denial oh it wont come it will go away, but now we are feeling angry,

    Again maybe i should calm down and stop blaming other countries for something we should have nipped early, as we had a lot of warning it was coming, from Europe, maybe from this we as a world need to collectively work together to help nip in the bud another pandemic, if one struck up next year all the worlds health people and econimcally go in an help out as stopping a virus in one country intime stops it spreading around the globe.

  • Any talk of real change based on attitude of so called leaders whilst world population what it is and climbing is just hot air.

    Without a huge cull of the human race there will constantly be a glut of cheap labour and consumers of mediocre but not always cheap goods and plain old tat which suits the so called elites just fine.

    Plagues and wars in the past have decimated labour and left those standing as a rarer and hence more valuable resource able to make and get more demands. Without a repeat of such huge historical events there'll be no great sea change and this current debacle is way to small to be a harbinger of such a large change.

    The societal indoctrination of every single human life is precious no matter how futile or lacking in a future of anything other than pain and misery that is the destiny of a great many has stalled the advancement of humans and kept the masses as fodder for the minority who predominantly live for right now and not a long term future.

    A true plague of biblical scale is the medicine humans need and hopefully nature's got something in the pipeline to administer.

    I have not been beaten into a risk averse state of mind by the powers that be and am more than willing to take my chances.

    If only more would recover or actually develop that spirit things could really move on.

  • We need to stop measuring by GDP and start thinking about satisfaction, health,

    Ah this would be nice Millie but peeps have short memories and ithe virus will be a distant memory,peeps will go back to Amazon, love island and junk food, the world will still be run by the rich and as they say, shit runs downhill baby .

  • Life will go on as before.... Covid will be little but a memory... The rich will get richer... The poor will get poorer.... The divide will widen... and shopping and buying stuff that isn't needed will still be the number weekend activity. People will still want cheap consumer goods and food. Society will move towards a cashless economy ( in a bad way and not a barter way)!

    If absolutely nothing else changes, then the private nursing homes should all be brought in to NHS care. What was that statement on the purpose of the NHS? "from cradle to grave"??