From next Feb all coal , and wood that has not been kiln dried to be banned , what will you do about it???
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Don't really know. Advice on staying warm to those who can't afford the alternatives is a bit thin on the ground. I've been burning compressed reclaimed wood recently, but it is obviously more expensive and this move is going to hit the less well-off very hard. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to find the space to dry wood to the required degree.
I guess it will be continue to be business as usual for BP and the gang, who will have to find ways of meeting the other big announcements about no new i/c engines.
Only kiln dried from outlets?, yet another poke at offgrid and alternative lifestyles they wont be happy until we are all in fucking camps.Notice that it's not a ban on wood burning appliances,too many Tory members have Aga's etc.
I'll just carry on collecting wood from the beach and letting it dry for a year. Almost stocked up for next year already with the storms help and I should have some of last seasons wood still left by the time the burning season is finished this year.
So fuck them with a very large piece of contorted drift wood!!!!
Indeed doc not sure how they would police this new law, all you need is a righteous neighbour acting for climate change and .....
Maybe a reduction in the price of small woodburners is on the horizon.
There is another thread running here on this but just to add I am glad no mention was made of smokeless fuels. I think you'll find this applies to towns and cities, built up areas etc more than rural areas.
No mention on this being just in cities Wiz it's a countrywide ban,smokeless fuel seem to be left alone at the moment.
Ah right, I was basing that on the first round of stove purge that happened last year, that was aimed at built up areas, I kinda assumed this was the the bill being passed for that and not a new version blanket ban thing. There is far worse sources of pollution going on. I heard no mention of the coal fired power stations.
This blanket ban is surely going to have a adverse affect on those in rural areas that rely on these fuel sources for heat as they may not hav the facilities or be able to afford to go totally over to gas or electric for heating. The production of electricity and gas isnt exactly carbon freindly apart form wind and solar but the governemnt cut funding for wind farms so by people upping their usager or installing new heating systems to replace stoves and fire places will add more to the carbon output of the nation as a whole surely. I feel the governemnt should step up and take action to make sure the energy production is cleaned up and keep going with wind and solar from commercial to householders applications to goive any credibility to this ban.
As with most legislation it bears little resemblance to reality, it's just another knee jerk reaction by the powers that be in reaction to pressure from someone or other. It won't change the world, just make it look like "govt plc" are doing something. Hopefully it will bring down the price of log burners, but as usual I won't hold my breath while I wait for an advantage for the common man....🙁
Ive been burning pallets from work at home now for years. They take next to no time to cut up with a jigsaw, and also there are loads that get damaged with the blocks knocked out that I just pick up all year round. Had plenty of people tell me that it'll fuck up my burner and flue, both are still fine. Other than that the only other stuff I burn is skip find softwood, and the occasional trailer of logs from the brother in law when he's got too many already.
I've never paid for wood yet, there's loads out there for the taking.
Smoke from chimneys is perhaps more noticeable in towns and cities than in rural areas, so hopefully people in rural areas will not be quite so oppressed. But behind all this kind of legislation is the aim of getting everybody dependent on the system, whether it's the electricity grid or the privatised gas. Everybody must be a consumer tied to the privatised utilities.
Where I am we have a coal/wood open fireplace that we have fires in only in very cold weather, and no doubt we'll continue to use that occasionally, unless they get heating inspectors strolling around looking up at chimneys. Other times, unless the temperature goes below 60F we just wear more clothes indoors. If it does get chilly for a spell, we put on the electric heater for an hour or two.
But we have some neighbours who have only gas-fired central heating, and some of them, including disabled people, cannot afford to have this heating on all day long. So they put it on for the evening, between 6 and 7 pm mostly, and knock it off at 9 to 10 pm, before it has really warmed up the place. If they stay at home all day in cold weather they sit in a chair covered in blankets or a duvet, watching the box or knitting, or playing with a mobile phone.
This problem will only get worse. Just recently I read where some families in Scotland were being charged between £100 and £150 a week by Scottish Power, and just cannot afford it In a place where there is no easy switch to another supplier. They have no fireplace, no woodburning stove, and no alternative source of energy.
As always, legislation like thos cripples the sector of society that is already struggling or flat cant afford the bills. Not that I ever want to I wouldnt be able afford to rent a house/flat let alone pay the extortionate utility bills. It's no wonder so many people have zero or minus zero at the end of each month by the time they have paid the bills, put food on the table etc.
So knocking out people having stoves is going to be a hard knock. On the radio yesterday they interviewed a guy in Lincolnshire, who is retired, disabled and living on the breadline, he was saying he absolutely relies in the two stoves he has and if he has to stop using them he said he will end up living with no heating as he cant afford to install and run gas or electric heating systems.
Yes its tough however in built up areas surely its got to be policed, think about poor kids and peoples health asma breathing health issues, in france there was a smog so bad it caused a shut down of the city of paris,
Think of it as smoking you wouldnt smoke surely now in a room with kids in but its ok to pump tary wet smoke into a town on a wet foggy day.
Its a good idea id go even further scrubber filters on the stacks.
having trained up in hull learning plumbing i was coughing ans ill every day, the lad i was training with had asma quite bad while there, and there was a school next to a busy road.
To be honest a re think needs doing i think for domestic in towns, why not burn waste generate heat and electric on an industrail scale have big flow town heat pipes and electric generation cleaner and greener.
in summer solar wind geo therm ground source etc link it all together in plant room street hubs instead of fossil fuels like gas that way multiple fuel sources
As always the rich, elite and privileged are not affected whilst the ordinary citizen suffers.
This is the worst piece of legislation with minimal effect on pollution.
Indeed there is definitely a pattern forming here and we seen to be at the pit face!
The group of people I mentioned above , in my opinion, killed my grandparents by exploiting them and keeping their wages low and their living conditions poor. Pop was a miner and Nan was a skivvy/cleaner.
And so it goes on and on through the generations doc, the rich get richer and we all get poorer!
Thank fuck there is discussion of rich versus poor here.... Right on and everything goes the same way.... It all goes up to benefit the wealthy and powerful.
That said: I didn't yet see this publicised as a ban on the use of wet wood and standard coal. I have only seen it publicised as a ban on the commercial supply of offending products.
I'm probably wrong. I don't use either myself and I'm OK with it but I'm only ever a couple of paychecks away from destitution and would (in that destitute situation) burn whatever I could find to keep the chill off.
I am all up for change that supports a healthier environment but as already pointed out most change is elitist and does nothing to help less wealthy folk who have equal justification for survival.
Edit: And there is still argument about the emissions involved in transporting kiln dried wood over the short term use of unseasoned, locally sourced wood. 😬
Like you say Z if somebody is skint etc and needs a burner for warmth,cooking I think most peeps in that situation would say fuck it and burn whatever they could pick up.The big question is what would the fascist state do about it?, also where is this going to end, no bonfires, no more bonfire night, no camp fires or festy fires no striking of matches, fuck I'm getting angry and dont even have a woodburner!!
Yes i guess it will hit the poorer ayve just maybe this hasnt been thought through, but in a built up town with many properties burning anything unregulated its going to cause literally smogs that were a blight on health and life in dickension and the early part of the 20 th century like the great smog of london in the 50s.
Smokeless fuels were brought in and no coal zones years ago and that did help towns and cities have a cleaner air (the clean air act).
I dont think its a class thing i think its just common sense.
if left unregulated more stoves in properties pumping out tar, burnt plastic, resins from pressure treated wood pallets, all cancerous all bad for the health of everyone and especially the kids of the future.
Best way would be for someone to design either a stck that had maybe like a cat converter on the top or almost like the old indutrial scrubbers on there stacks, or a sytem of no burn days if it was foggy or dead air days.
To me its a step its a bit hard but something has to be done as i say paris had a shut down no one could function for days due to traffic pollution and mainly wood burning stoves.
Also why not have an immisions cert on the stove, whats the differance between a car needing an mot and your appliance? its all for the health of everyone surely.
esiest way would be get a moisture meter to test your wood to make sure its dry before putting on the stove, and maybe a meter on the stack asessing the emmisions as you burn and its up to you to keep them down maybe a waring system for poor air days.
I am guesing its tough for van dwellers finding dry wood daily but the argument for that would be a shorter stack a hotter stove and pipe and less tar build up.
Again immisions if it was cheap and do able you could asses your emmisions for different wood as you burnt.
and maybe an emmisions tax on new stove appliances that way it would hit the fancy posh stove people get a stove to look at.
On another side though dad is fuming, no coal and he cuts all his own wood is self sufcient, on a crap state pension and on a farm worth a bob or two but i guess not making a fortune as its to small to make a decent profit, he just likes living there a big council tax band so he heats the house fairly cheaply on his own supply of wood.
His argument is theyve sunk a big coal mine in cumbria i bet they generate electric because they make more money in tax and electric.
The DM has made him a bit angry.
I had a wee bit more of a look at the rules for this ban:
Larger quantities of wet wood can still be sold (it just bans smaller quantity supply) as long as advice is given about seasoning the wood before burning.
So that makes it all ok because those with the space to season wet wood at home won't suffer financial penalisation and will indeed benefit economically from shrinking demand and lower prices.
Up in smoke: Ban on the sale of wet wood and house coal hits 2.5 million homes as the Government clamps down on toxic air pollution
- From 2021 traditional coal and wet wood used by thousands will be phased out
- Burning these emits huge amounts of minuscule pollutants known as PM2.5
- Particles can cause or aggravate asthma, strokes, lung cancer and heart disease
- The move could force households to switch to more expensive ways of heating
Published: 00:07, 21 February 2020 | Updated: 10:59, 21 February 2020
Homeowners will be stopped from buying coal and wet wood logs from next year as part of a Government clampdown on toxic air pollution.
An estimated 2.5million homes in the UK have hearths with open fires or woodburning stoves.
But from 2021, traditional coal and wet wood, used by thousands across Britain, will be phased out amid concerns that tiny pollutant particles emitted when they burn can lead to serious health conditions.
Wet wood logs have not been purposefully dried out to reduce their moisture content after being chopped down or collected.
The move could force scores of households to switch to more expensive alternatives – with critics last night warning that some would be left unable to heat their homes.
The new rules will only apply to the sale, distributing and marketing of wet wood - and it will not be illegal to own or burn wet wood after the cut-off date, whether from your garden or a shop.
An estimated 2.5million homes in the UK have hearths with open fires or woodburning stoves
Burning wet wood and coal in homes emits huge amounts of minuscule pollutants, known as PM2.5, which can penetrate deep into the lungs and blood.
When alight, they let off 38 per cent of the total PM2.5 pollution in the UK – more than road transport and industry combined, according to government figures.
The particles – each one 28 times smaller than the width of a human hair – can cause or aggravate asthma, strokes, lung cancer and heart disease.
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Bags of wet wood logs are currently on sale in DIY stores, garden centres and petrol stations. Wood is considered dry when its moisture content is below 20 per cent.
Instead of using wet wood and coal homeowners will be instructed to burn dry wood or smokeless fuel instead – both of which are much more expensive.
Around 2.5million tons of logs are sold in the UK each year, of which 90 per cent are wet wood. Around 350,000 tons of house coal are burnt each year.
Smoke coming from a chimney in the Yorkshire Dales (file picture)
Last night, critics of the new rules warned that the change could mean some Britons would have to spend far more heating their homes.
How 25% moisture content means wood logs are considered wet
Wood logs are considered wet when the moisture content is above 25 per cent.
A rough guide to seeing if your logs are too wet to burn is to knock two pieces together — if they make a dull thud, then there is too much water for a fireplace.
Wet wood will also result in too much smoke and a build-up of creosote inside the fireplace and flue. If you need to dry out wet wood, then it is best to split it into smaller pieces and then air dry for the spring and summer.
It is advised to dry wet wood for up to 18 months before it reaches the ideal moisture content.
Those who want a more precise measurement can also use a digital moisture meter (below) which can be bought for about £20.
The instruments generally have two pins which can be pushed into a piece of firewood to give a reading, and different calibration scales for various wood species for more precise figures.
There is also what is called the 'soap test', which sees people rub washing up liquid on one end of the wood before blowing through the wood from the other end. If bubbles can be seen, then the firewood is dry.
Ian Gregory, an independent lobbyist for the fuel industry, said: 'This is appalling news for the rural poor.
'Nearly four million people are off the gas grid in the UK. Many of them keep their homes warm with coal because they can't afford briquettes which cost twice as much.
'As they won't be able to pay for briquettes they will use readily accessible wet wood which is far more polluting than coal. People will freeze in their homes and there will be no reduction in harmful emissions.'
Wet wood is not only more polluting, it can lead to chimneys needing to be swept more often.
The government's Clean Air Strategy aims to reduce particulate matter emissions by 30 per cent by 2020.
A recent report by King's College London measuring local concentrations, found that wood burning accounts for up to 31 per cent of the urban derived PM2.5 in London.
Environment Secretary George Eustice said: 'Cosy open fires and wood-burning stoves are at the heart of many homes up and down the country, but the use of certain fuels means that they are also the biggest source of the most harmful pollutant that is affecting people in the UK.
'By moving towards the use of cleaner fuels such as dry wood we can all play a part in improving the health of millions of people.
'This is the latest step in delivering on the challenge we set ourselves in our world-leading Clean Air Strategy.
'We will continue to be ambitious and innovative in tackling air pollution from all sources as we work towards our goal to halve the harm to human health from air pollution by 2030.'
Bags of traditional house coal will be phased out by February 2021, and the sale of loose coal direct to customers via approved coal merchants by February 2023.
This will give industry, suppliers and households the time to adapt to the new rules, the Government said.
Environment Secretary George Eustice (pictured outside Downing Street on February 13) said it was important for everyone to 'play a part in improving the health of millions of people'
Wet wood in units of under 70 cubic feet (2 cubic metres) will be restricted from sale from February 2021, and this will allow existing stocks to be used up.
Professor Stephen Holgate, Royal College of Physicians' special adviser on air quality, said: 'We know that air pollution causes significant health issues across the life course.
'It is key that the Government does everything it can to improve the air we all breathe. Today's announcement on domestic burning is a welcome step forward, and will in time, play a role in reducing the pollution associated with PM2.5.
'Inhaling combustion particles from any source is harmful, but more so than ever when it's directly within your home.
'Burning coal for heat and power has to stop and strong guidance is needed to insist that if wood is burnt in approved stoves, it is non-contaminated and dry.'
John Maingay, Director of Policy and Influencing at the British Heart Foundation, said: 'Wood and coal burning accounts for 40 per cent of harmful levels of background PM2.5 in the UK, and our research has shown that toxic PM2.5 can enter the bloodstream and damage our heart and circulatory system.
'Phasing out sales of coal and wet wood is a vital first step towards protecting the nation's health from toxic air. This is a welcome move from a Government showing its ambition and commitment to tackling air pollution.
'However, we must not stop there. Air pollution is a major public health challenge, and it requires an urgent and bold response.'
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Ban on sale of wet wood and house coal hits 2.5m homes as Government clamps down on air pollution
I only burn seasoned wood with a bit of coal , I still go for a walk with a bow saw , most of my wood is dead and seasoned still on the tree . I don't mind replacing the coal with some smokeless fuel . I don't think that it's poor people that are having burners fitted and buying nets of shit , un seasoned bags of crap logs and anyone with any experience of fires would shun such crap cos it's doesn't burn well , lines your chimney with sticky sap and doesn't throw out much heat.
It is impossible to police any individual use and all fires, burners, stoves produce very high levels of particulate matter (regardless of fuel choice) before reaching 'temperature'.
Gee I see that people are buying large amounts of wet wood in bulk. That won't change under the ban.
I want to criticise lamhd for using standard coal and wet wood but despite my use of overpriced little bags of smokeless coal and kiln dried wood I rarely achieve stove temperatures that would be ideal for reducing pollutants. Maybe lamhd achieves those temperatures.
I'd like to moan about the use of standard coal in national grid power plants but again if it is burnt at a very high temperature then it is not an issue re the particulate matter pollution being discussed.
A lot of us do what we can but I know and you know and they know that household energy can be bought from non profit suppliers with green credentials who charge more money. That extra money is invested in greener energy and not share holders.... Cest la vie. 😬
I want to know who these busybody legislators are buying their piped energy from.
Where did I say I use wet wood ? I don't use wet wood , it is shit !
Seasoned wood That is dead on the tree , standard hippy ( site ) practice . Oak , ash , elm, blackthorn , hawthorn burn very well and very hot . Much better than coal and best well seasoned !
I guess if i was organised id harvest wood in the height of summer ie dead trees branches and general wood, thus wood is the most dry and store it properly, however i am always busy all the time these days either that or a bit lazy,
There will prob be a boom in log stores and storing timber in the dry or dry sheds to season the wood,
No one really thinks about storing wood me included, its the fuel it makes sense if its dry when i grew up if it was dry it was a bonus, now i guess its a must,
I mean everything is up to stringent regs, be they vehicles, gas or oil boilers it seems the only thing unregulated is log burners and fires. I am sure the authorities will leave van dwellers alone unless they can see black smoke billowing out of an appliance, or there little hitlers with an excuse to weaponize themselves with power.
We cant moan about climate change and pollution in towns while burning fossil fuels and wet and carcagenic materials.
Yes it seems draconian i think its a bit hard and i think it will be difficult to police.
I don't care lmhd....by all means subject it to a moisture meter.... I DON'T care. As you say if you choose poor wood it won't burn well so you don't do that. And as said you probably go for a hot burn. Point is that some overmoisture is negligible in its effect on the environment when compared to piped energy users choosing not to invest in greener energy production.
Don't get your knickers in such a twist.
Dead wood from the tree is likely to be much less wet than dead wood left lying, which in some places can get very wet indeed. We've had to stack dead wood cut up from lying trunks under cover (but exposed to wind) for the best part of a year or so to dry out properly.
Nonetheless, I can't see this legislation being enforced unless some neighbour or busybody actively complains to the relevant authorities. Local councils are so strapped for cash that there won't be many employing chimney-gazers to spot the smoke from coal or wood fires. While it may be ethically correct not to pollute, it is also ethically correct to make sure that replacement fuels cost no more than the polluting ones. As this government has no ethics, there is no chance of this happening.
Interestingly, our local council has for the past few years been trying to phase out gas heating in council properties that have become empty, and installing electric central heating instead, including boilers. To simulate a fire, a small unit is fitted (750w) over the blocked-up fireplace. This is placed too high to quickly warm the room on its own - you more or less have to stand up in front of it to get any heat. Poor design, or is it just to make tenants turn on the central heating? We went to some trouble to refuse this option, being sitting tenants who had choice, but they will probably be back again in the near future, backed by this latest legislation.
I got a bolockin' off a green nerd the other day for scavenging wood off the beach, I just nodded and couldn't be bothered to point out that it's seasoned in a proper wood store for next year or to point out his diesel car, oil central heating, or twenty mile commute each day.