Another dead vegan baby.

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  • Hate to say it but was the natural balance for humans, famine,war, and disease, disaster.


    We kind of bucked that trend survived really well and procreated sporadically.


    As young adults, and kids we find our groups or lone it, then create alliances and basicly want to procreate and fight or argue passionately who we dont get on with,


    milenia ago we procreated, and had fights the fights often resulting in killing who we didnt agree with, that fight or flight is still in us to this day but we are able to control this syndrome.


    So probably in the past the earth and nature did ok thanks to us all either dying at some stage in our lives, and being replaced by our sons or daughters.


    I think thats prob why in a lot of families alegiences are drawn and you either hate your siblings or get on depending on status and wealth todays alpha male/female status in times gone as tribes we prob fought to the death or took flight and set up another life miles away from your family setting up your own or going it alone.


    Its a natural thing to look after your family or yourself and fight earn work for a bit of the pie.


    I think that is why neighbours fall out, families argue at christmas, and wars start, its hard wired into evry human and maybe if every inch of soil is lived on by humans in the future it may happen again.

  • The NHS is advising breakfast cereals which are fortified with certain vitamins of the B complex. Not all 'cereals' are so fortified. The fact that they have to be fortified suggests something is lacking anyway. Humans have lived for thousands of years off non-fortified cereals, usually cooked with cow or goat milk if available, water if not.


    Wholewheat cereals and oats, until fairly recently, were the norm. We often had a good bowl of porridge for breakfast too, as kids, but as more manufactured 'cereals' came on the UK market, along with much advertising, kids gradually changed over to wanting those.

    As Gee says, cereals like corn flakes were really a bowl of warm milk and a bit of processed starch, little else, and after an hour or so you would feel hungry again. 'Sugar puffs' and similar shyte were even more junky.


    While not arguing for a vegan diet, I think it is quite possible to bring up children on a vegan diet, supplemented by artificial vitamins, if considered necessary. I know people who are vegans, and their children are not particularly emaciated. The medical profession considers this is quite possible too, looking at the NHS site and others.


    From a 'natural' or ecological point of view, manufactured vitamins should not be necessary, as these should come from foods in the diet. But if some people do not have access to such foods, or have religious or ethical peculiarities which preclude them from such foods, manufactured vitamins are a substitute, while civilisation lasts. When civilised conditions no longer obtain then, as a poster remarked above, Darwinian selection will soon sort out who will survive and who will not.

  • It would be those who had a omnivorous diet, a traditional diet of products from both plant and animal sources, in our climate at least.


    The vegans would have to change diet or die out, or start the long trek to warmer climates where all the necessities for a vegan diet grew naturally.; the promised land....

  • saturated fat proved to be a killer as there generation had heart attacks etc.

    No it is trans fat found in margarine that causes heart attacks. Humans have been consuming saturated fat for eons. It was only post WW2 that heart attacks became common place.

  • Plenty of parents bring their kids up eating fatty meats,

    The only study that points the finger at saturated fat is Ancel Keys' 6 Countries study where he chose not to use the data from 16 other countries. Classic bad science that has fooled millions and continues to do so to this day.

  • Yes, the massive margarine and processed oil companies have much to answer for. Even today, many otherwise educated people 'believe' that any margarine or highly-processed oil must be better than butter or animal fats.

  • "Production of hydrogenated fats increased steadily until the 1960s, as processed vegetable fats replaced animal fats in the United States and other Western countries. At first, the argument was a financial one due to lower costs; advocates also said that the unsaturated trans fats of margarine were healthier than the saturated fats of butter.[28]

    As early as 1956, there were suggestions in the scientific literature that trans fats could be a cause of the large increase in coronary artery disease but after three decades the concerns were still largely unaddressed.[28] Instead, by the 1980s, fats of animal origin had become one of the greatest concerns of dieticians. Activists, such as Phil Sokolof, who took out full page ads in major newspapers, attacked the use of beef tallow in McDonald's french fries and urged fast-food companies to switch to vegetable oils. The result was an almost overnight switch by most fast-food outlets to trans fats.

    Studies in the early 1990s, however, brought renewed scrutiny and confirmation of the negative health impact of trans fats. In 1994, it was estimated that trans fats caused 20,000 deaths annually in the United States from heart disease.[29]

    Mandatory food labeling for trans fats was introduced in several countries.[30] Campaigns were launched by activists to bring attention to the issue and change the practices of food manufacturers.[31] In January 2007, faced with the prospect of an outright ban on the sale of their product, Crisco was reformulated to meet the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) definition of "zero grams trans fats per serving" (that is less than one gram per tablespoon, or up to 7% by weight; or less than 0.5 grams per serving size)[32][33][34][35] by boosting the saturation and then diluting the resulting solid fat with unsaturated vegetable oils."


    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat


    Looks like that China study linked may be out of date; science has advanced since then.

  • On balance, granadad, although he was a smoker, ate a diet of fat bacon, bread and dripping, brawn, and had to have fat and brease on everything, he also had butter, lard, the works.

    He died of a massive heart attack, though in his later years he said he definatly felt better on low fat margarine.


    The bloke who trianed me as an apprentice, is now in his 80s, he was a very light smoker a cigar now and again, and passive smoker off his wife, he s still alive, he used to eat a lot of heavy lard products, one being a heavy lard and sugar cake, in his sandwhich box, he had to cut down in his 60s and smoking as he was getting high blood pressure, so i think he has a lower fat diet.



    It works i think trans fats are bad if fried or used in deep fat fryers to cook with,


    Animal fats i am sure in high content are bad for us, sorry ive seen to many people who use animal fats like lard, butter (salt) end up ill either with high blood pressure or heart problems strokes ir high cholostrol etc,



    I am sure in the days where we "burned" off fat keeping warm in cold houses and working hard or cycling or walking miles to work or doing very heavy manual labour fat was probably a godsend, now its needs to be kept an eye on.


    As always i believe a balnced died is king,


    Porrige rules for reducing cholostrol if iam out of milk i use water,


    The biggest killer also is sugar which causes diebetes and turns into carbo which then turns into fat.


    Fat is like a candel wether from animal or plant it needs to be burnt off, or you "wax" up so depending on your job lifestyle keep it low.

  • I am sure in the days where we "burned" off fat keeping warm in cold houses and working hard or cycling or walking miles to work or doing very heavy manual labour fat was probably a godsend, now its needs to be kept an eye on.


    As always i believe a balanced diet is king,

    That is it in a nutshell, Gee. Years back, the Irish consumed more animal fats than most races in Western Europe, yet had one of the lowest rates of heart disease. Simply because work in Ireland was mostly agricultural work, hard work. In most cases the high fat intake was burnt off.

    A high fat intake is not good, but is particularly bad for people in a sedentary job, or if retired and not keeping active.


    For a very long time we have got used to eating animal fats, usually cooked, as part of a Northern European diet. Anyone particularly allergic or sensitive to them would have died out long ago.


    At the moment humans have not had time to get used to hydrogenated fats produced by a commercial process, particularly where the cheaper processes produce a higher percentage of trans fats; which are fats that are not completely hydrogenated. So we can expect some bad results. Whether our systems can ever get used to such fats, if they were all that was available, is an open question. In the meantime, I would consider it logical to consume in sensible amounts those fats and oils that the human race has become used to over a very long period of time.

  • Maybe, but I believe it was more of a study that correlated people's habits to their health -- it was statistical rather than anything laboratory based.


    The point I was making is that there is more than one study.

    Yes, it would be interesting to know if the higher consumers of animal products in China at that time were wealthier sedentary workers, such as government officials and business people, rather than poor farmers and agricultural labourers.


    It is only in recent years, with increasing prosperity, that the average Chinese person has been able to afford more animal products in the diet, and more frequently.

  • France has the highest per capita of butter in the world and the lowest rate of CVD - the so called French Paradox. No paradox about it . The 6 Countries was just bad science to start with.

  • Activists, such as Phil Sokolof, who took out full page ads in major newspapers, attacked the use of beef tallow in McDonald's french fries and urged fast-food companies to switch to vegetable oils.

    A classic case of a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Seed oils are bad for your sex life.

  • Quote from Gee

    On balance, granadad, although he was a smoker, ate a diet of fat bacon, bread and dripping, brawn, and had to have fat and brease on everything, he also had butter, lard, the works.He died of a massive heart attack, though in his later years he said he definatly felt better on low fat margarine.

    This is anecdotal. As you point out he was a smoker.His DNA would have also been a factor.

    Quote from Gee

    Animal fats i am sure in high content are bad for us, sorry ive seen to many people who use animal fats like lard, butter (salt) end up ill either with high blood pressure or heart problems strokes ir high cholostrol etc,

    In the USA data collected by the USDA showed that from the 1930s onwards, as per capita consumption of animal fats went down and replaced with margarine and seed oils, the rate of CVD went up. By the 1950s although life expectancy had gone up, one in three deaths was from CVD, a disease unheard of just 50 years prior.

  • Seriously, could you guarantee that all that data pre 1950 was correct, as in did they put earlier death down to old age as life expectancy was lower up to the 50 s, also CVD also encompasses im guessing smoking which has dropped in later years, thus up to the 50s data people probably died of smoking relate illnesses before heart related diseases, ie there lungs or cancer prob got them before there heart packed up.


    Also people ate less or healthier up to the 50s as they had to be fit for a war in the late 30s and rationing in the uk dunno about the u s

  • Quote from Paul

    Therefore, cutting out the middleman (the animals) and supplementing directly, or through consuming fortified foods (or earthy organic vegetables) is the best way to ensure adequate amounts.

    To grow organic food, is being part of the animal industry. If you ever learn about growing food is that soil is a precious commodity.The classic mistake that many beginner gardeners make is they fuss over their plants and ignore the soil. Fuss over your soil and then you will get your plants right. There are some other consolidations.

    Keeping chickens turns food waste into desirable food and chicken poo is excellent fertiliser.

    Quote from Paul

    Human beings are naturally from warm climates, and vitamin D3 is produced in our bodies when we have adequate sunlight. It occurs more naturally in animals that spend a lot of time outdoors, thus making it easier to get into the food supply through meat consumption.

    For a naturally dark skinned person to get their D3 from the sun, they would have to go nude all the time. The more time a naturally light skinned person spends in the sun, the darker their skin becomes and becomes less effective at D3 absorption.

  • For a naturally dark skinned person to get their D3 from the sun

    I'd like to see a reference for that -- bearing in mind that I haven't consumed animal products at all for over 6 years and only ever supplement D3 in the autumn / winter months. I'm also healthy and not on any medication.

    First reference I discovered, without any deep searching...


    Quote

    Another study found that 30 minutes of midday summer sun exposure in Oslo, Norway was equivalent to consuming 10,000–20,000 IU of vitamin D (8Trusted Source).

    The commonly recommended daily dose of vitamin D is 600 IU (15 mcg) (3).

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun

  • To grow organic food, is being part of the animal industry. If you ever learn about growing food is that soil is a precious commodity.

    It is completely feasible for all the nutrients needed to come from plant sources -- it's known as "veganic".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_organic_gardening


    While we live in a non-vegan world, it's tricky to do this as we're locked into a system -- but it's being done increasingly more and is completely viable.

  • I see from the interesting link that only some veganic gardeners use their own manure. Obviously others do not.


    Is this not opting out of the law of return? Even living in the forest, animal and human droppings are utilised by the trees and vegetation when they decay.

  • Is this not opting out of the law of return? Even living in the forest, animal and human droppings are utilised by the trees and vegetation when they decay.

    I guess there are levels, but to me the issue is more about waste caused by industrial or large scale animal agriculture / exploitation, rather than waste that occurs naturally.

  • When I first studied organic growing /permaculture/ bio-dynamic food I learned about being in tune and working with nature. In nature, plants and animal have a symbiotic relationship to each other. Animals have net absorption of oxygen and net output of carbon; growing plants have net absorption of carbon and a net output of carbon.

    There is a third way when it comes to eating- being a freerangertarian. True to my word at Christmas I had no turkey or ham.

  • Porrige rules for reducing cholostrol if iam out of milk i use water,


    The biggest killer also is sugar which causes diebetes and turns into carbo which then turns into fat.


    Fat is like a candel wether from animal or plant it needs to be burnt off, or you "wax" up so depending on your job lifestyle keep it low.

  • With regaurd to mineral defeciency I agree mineral licks are used, and if really bad in sheep if there low on copper there given a copper injection this works fairly quickly, cattle seem to fair better.


    Yes licks are used but as an example if sheep graze on heath, or poor quality land they still get trace elements and the licks they need usually are needed mainly in winter and about lambing time, not really high demand and farmers dont chuck licks around willy nilly as they are costly so they only put them out when needed.


    Every bit of land is different so not all farmers will need to chuck licks hard at there stock the land itself may have the minerals. also we see sheep lick and eat road salt heaps so if thats an argument against mineral usage, why not stop salting roads as well and save minerals there as well.


    Veganism would be knackered without fridges, freezers and imports from around the world.


    A balanced diet could survive with no fridges, freezers or imports, ie you can cherry pick food use according to the seasons in the uk and nearly be self suffient, in fact suffiency has gone out the window, still struggle to get my head around how we couldnt do it again.

  • Its not just veganism that would be knackered without fridges and freezers. Regardless of what diet you eat -vegan/omni/pesce you need the ability to either (a) regularly procure fresh food locally or (b) preserve it -either through refrigeration,salting, pickling bottling,smoking or vacuum packing.


    Consumers have colluded with large supermarket chains to close down local shops and the local food suppy chain in the UK,a chain thats been around for centuries,because they shopped on price and convenience AKA laziness, so there is no real option these days but to buy food in supermarkets and store in a refrigerator/ freezer.


    For the average person, to go out daily to a supermarket is just not economical or desirable or even feasible in some areas.


    What local food that is available tends to be niche products that command a high premium so again not an option for the majority of people.


    In most European countries the local food supply network hangs on and consumers still have a good range of local produce sold in local shops.


    In the UK we've been dragged down the US model of supply chain and we will struggle to overturn that...I doubt that British consumers could even be bothered trying. British people have been buying crap from supermarket's so long theyve no real concept of what real food is or they just wont pay the price for it.


    When i grew up almost everything we ate -veg or meat - was produced locally or regionally in the UK.

    FIsh came from British fishing ports and very little daily fare came from overseas. We had a few grocery shops and butcher baker,fish monger, in my village, an abatoir not far away and so it was not a problem to obtain fresh local food daily.

    No one in my family even had a fridge until 1975, Just a cold slab in the pantry,everything got eaten and what had gone beyond salvation got dumped on the compost heap and went into the veg garden...and almost everyone had a veg garden and quite a few had chickens and /or a pig.


    Non of those shops exist now,theyre all houses,just one super store and everything is shipped in by truck from abroad...and thats the same model for pretty well most of the UK.

    I now live near an ancient market town and the only local produce store is an artisan bakers that sells loaves at 4 quid a pop.


    Thats why food self sufficiency in the UK is such an uphill battle. For that to change would need a huge groundswell in change of consumer habits and I cant see that happening.

    Consumers here are too lazy and mollycoddled,want everything convenient, dirt cheap and prepared for them,in majority of cases cooked for them too.

  • As for soil enrichment its not necessary as part of the process to have animals,theyre not an absolute requirement for good soil. Animals only accelerate the process of vegetation breakdown in their stomachs and farming discovered a use for the tons of excess animal shit by spreading it on fields to improve soil quality.Long before the mass meat industry, cereals and vegetables were griwn without the application of animal manures.


    The same nutrients in manure can be obtained from grass/sileage digestor fermenter plant and often is now on farms that no longer have livestock.

    The brewing and sugar industry have for decades used the waste products of their industries for fertiliser.

    Organic does not mean animal based,it simply means the production has followed a natural as opposed to artificially chemically accelerated path.

  • Seriously, could you guarantee that all that data pre 1950 was correct, as in did they put earlier death down to old age as life expectancy was lower up to the 50 s, also CVD also encompasses im guessing smoking which has dropped in later years, thus up to the 50s data people probably died of smoking relate illnesses before heart related diseases, ie there lungs or cancer prob got them before there heart packed up.


    Also people ate less or healthier up to the 50s as they had to be fit for a war in the late 30s and rationing in the uk dunno about the u s

    Actually the US conducted extensive research on population heslth and nutrition prior to ww2 because of widespread malnutrition and poverty They also conducted extensive studies on service personnel and nutrition.

    Its because governments were aware if what kills people in large numbers prematurely that we had sanitation,clean water,vaccinations,antibiotics,insulin etc etc.


    Its more difficult to attribute premature deaths pre 1950 to any particular illness because life expectancy and general health were poorer and toxic working conditions in most industries would have played a major part and so did the war and its long lasting effects.


    Post war America saw a massive rise in obesity by the 60's and thats almost all down to the highly refined fat and sugar diets of convenience foods that exploded there post war.

    It took the UK a couple of decades to catch up but we imported American food consuming habits and acquired all the same obesity related health problems.


    Obesity in the UK was almost unheard of in the UK up to the 1960's because people worked hard manusl jobs,walked or cycled everywhere and ate healthy food stuff,even if there wasn't a lot of affordable food it was healthy natural ingredients and many folks grew their own.

    Theres been a massive shift to convenience processed and fast food since the 60's and all those are high in refined vegetable fats and sugars.


    Animal fats are not the danger. omega 6 vegetable oils ( in hydrogenated veg oil like margarine and high temperature refined veg oil) are the main danger as are triglycerides (sugars). Theyre the primary cause of arterial plaques arterial inflammation and vascular damage.


    Margarine was produced as the answer to dealing with an excess of otherwise worthless vegetable oil.It suddenly acquired a value and incorporated into pretty much every food product in the 60's with support of US government medical advice. Only to be found later on that its a truly dangerous dietary ingredient that promtes cardio vascular disease.


    Theres a catastrophic level of cvd in west Asians in the west who live on diets saturated with ghee oil much of which is veg oil that substitutes original ghee butter.


    A similar issue with High Fructose Corn Oil, its a waste product thats acquired a value and found its way into many foods,especially foods and treats aimed at children and one of the primary causes of child age obesity.


    More recently Palm Oil has found its way into virtually everything we use,especially into food like bread and pastry and processed foods that never even used it before...another health issue brewing.


    The problem we have these days is almost every part of the food production chain has a vested interest or agenda to promote or diss an ingredient and much of the conflicting research evidence they spout comes from scientist they themselves are paying for. No conflict of interest there of course.


    The real truth is coming out though slowly as ssome senior cardiologists break rank and free from the scripted message of their governing bodies.

    Unfortunately its already too late for much of the population thats followed the dietary trend of the past 50 yrs.