Extinction Rebellion

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  • i did sign up to ER in its early launch but quickly realised from the chatter on their social media that its not grassroots greenies its more a bunch of privileged whingers and hoorah henries so i left them.

    While the ostructionist protests may draw some attention theyre not gaining widespread popular support from the masses (maybe because they obviously look privileged) so i think all we will see of it is more clampdowns on lawful protest which will affect all of us.

  • I imagine if anything does come out of this protest it will be the less privileged who would be first to suffer because that is what our elitist, pseudo democracy does.

    Whilst I imagine I would be extremely irritated if I was trying to drive or take buses in the affected areas I can't otherwise envision how Paul has calculated that it is the working classes who are caused losses by this action.

    If you get the message (RT) it doesn't much matter about the social class of those delivering it.

    I believe it's school holidays.... and it certainly is a long public holiday.....it seems to me that this timing was chosen to minimise disruption and inconvenience.

    RT: it is a peaceful protest. It's fairly difficult for the unpriveliged to remain calm and peaceful in such arrestable circumstances.

    The government is now talking about "the full force of the law" because protesters are causing "misery":-

    What do you posters think would be an appropriate response?

    Is this protest and disruption in itself not an appropriate response?

  • shoot the fecking lot of em :eek: just joking:reddevil:

    essentially though tear gas, water hosing or those new fangled targeted noise techniques appear to be the only options that might move protestors on....none of those violent responses would be proportionate treatment for non violent pedestrians though.

    Pedestrians always have the "right of way"

    The pedestrian protestors are being arrested on 'suspicion of a public order offence' under 'special powers'....they do not necessarily have to accept a caution and are not facing court because they have not committed any crime.

  • Lol ,perhaps if they want to glue themselves to buses, buildings etc. apply some more glue , maybe stronger and just leave them there , after all its what they wanted , perhaps they'd reflect differently on their actions after a week or two of being un comfortably glued to an object. Just joking:reddevil:

  • The government (of either main party) has the same response to lawful or unlawful protest whether its privileged non violent protesters or destructive violent mass smashing windows and setting fire to cars.

    I think with intransigent governments who actually like and enjoy confrontation, it allows them to bring in more and more stifling public order laws and surveillance and try out new technology and crowd control exercises thatvtheyve been unable to use since the end of the IRA troubles.

    Maybe a different more subtle approach is required.

    Protests that are violent and destructive switch generally reasonable open minded people right off.

    Protests that inconvenience the ordinary public inadvertently create negative feelings toward protesters and completely undermine the objective.

    The general public are the people who need to take action by changing their indulgent consuming mentality and making sure manufacturers are hit in their pockets and its them who will force governments hands...but the general public doesnt really want to change their indulgent consuming mentality because they like it and changing it means some potential hardship doing without stuff or buying more expensive organic products.

    Ergo its really the general public and consumers that Extinction Rebellion need to target.

    Not violently or in an intimidatory way or inconvenience them but use the media,social media and box clever to get the message firmly across to the people who dont generally care or pay much attention to current affairs, make everyone aware that consumers actually do have a lot of power collectively and can bring about change and bring down companies or more importantly scare the shit out of the stockholders who back companies.

    Make sure consumers do act in a unified manner.. Make offending brands and companies toxic to shareholders and reward those who adopt organic environmentally aware policies.

    That requires sensible persuasion and persistent lobbying.

    It doesnt take long for shareholders and advertisers to drop brands like a stone if the brand becomes toxic for whatever reason,that wipes millions or billions off the company stock value...there lies the power.

    That may seem counter to the past notions of civil protest but how many violent or non violent protests in history have actually changed much unless the entire population has been behind it and its become a threat to economies or the standing government.?

    Government wont do anything unless its hand is forced,the quickest way to force its hand is via corporate pressure. Consumers have the power to turn corporate attention on the government.

    ER needs to get out to supermarkets and retail parks pushing the environmental destruction issue in peoples faces. It needs ramming home 24/7 that we live in a fucking sess pit of pollution and that everyone of us needs to start now by changing what and how we buy.

    Get it on the TV radio cinema in the takeaways,everywhere so it sinks in and the public feels dirty about what theyre doing to the planet.

    My kids 7 and 9 know more about pollution and the environment than most adults but its their generation thats going to be forced to deal with the mess.

    Ive already heard two comments today about ER "bunch of wankers" so obviously the message theyre hoping for is getting lost in translation.

  • There is always the conspiracy theory that this largely middle-class protest has been socially-engineered to create a diversion from things that matter more immediately, and to create division between those working and those protesting, and with environmentalists generally. (The protesters themselves would be totally unaware of this, of course).

  • I don't think big industry, like the oil cartels, will listen to public protest and take action. At least, not real action. They may throw out a few sops, make a small investment in alternative energy here and there. But not real change.

    Simply because over 90% of the public themselves rely on the products of the oil industry, in one way or another, and are hardly likely to give them up voluntarily.

    Besides which, many improvements in alternative energy products have seen their patents frozen by government patent offices as a 'national security' issue. So those patents cannot be used to manufacture products which domestic homes and small businesses could use to go off-grid in some parts of the world, given reasonable sunshine.

    Anything solar-powered with an output efficiency of over 20% automatically gets frozen by the US Patents Office, for example. Oil, like money, talks.

  • Contrary to Trumps determination to restart the coal mining industry,Big Coal is ditching coal mining and moving into other more environmental orientated products like solar.

    With government policy here determined to outlaw petrol and diesel cars by 2040 the writing is on the wall for oil industry and car manufacturing.

    Consumers themselves are buying electric as opposed to diesel cars and as the price drops more will do so.

    Consumers forget too easily that big corporate industries got big because of consumers buying the products,they didnt just appear one day.

    They can just as easily be forced to reconsider their product lines by consumer pressure.

    China is rapidly heading towards a more environmentally conscious manufacturing market and that will inevitably drive change elseswhere.

    Folks with higher disposable incomes are changing because they have a desire for cleaner world for their kids.

    Lower income folks seek out alternative energy systems and methods to save money and balance the household budget more easily.

    One way or another change will come and corporates will have to adapt to it or drive the change.

    Its more profitable to drive change than adapt to what others are doing.

    Patents may be frozen,it doesnt stop people developing or using technology outside of patent controlled areas and the politicians who impose patent freezes wont be in office forever.

    Popular voter pressure will force their hands when voters want solar or alternative energy.They can give in or be voted out.

    Most western governments have a Canute like attitude to environmental issues but sooner or later the tide will overwhelm them - literally - if they dont respond fast enough to climate change.

    Change is coming,theres no doubt of that and no choice either.

    Its a bit like the Brexit situation that the government stupidly thinks it can micro-manage and all will be well, while meanwhile corporates and small businesses alike are taking action that will ensure their continued profitability by shifting their operations.

    The government will eventually wake up and realise its not actually in control of as much as it thought.

  • I love your optimism, but world events suggest otherwise.

    Why the big American interest in Venezuela and Iran, if not for oil?

    Electric-powered trucks are still in their early stages, as the batteries required would weigh more than the payload, and probably for some time to come, which leaves the cars.

    All those electric cars will take enormous amounts of energy, and it cannot all come from coal and gas-fired power stations. Nuclear power stations are pretty dodgy politically, and take much longer to build. But oil-fired stations would fill that gap admirably, and can be thrown up quickly. The internal combustion engine is not the only use for oil.

  • The oil industry is still stuck in the dark ages,its still looking for the next big find and to acquire cheap or free assets with the help of a (US) Government and its military.

    Reality will catch them up.

    Yes power stations will be needed to charge electric vehicles, battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds though as is other technology -hydrogen cell,hybrids.Solar cell technology has already taken huge leaps in efficiency.

    I think by the time the oil industry acquires its much prized reserves (other people own)the rest of the world will have moved on.

    Also its just not sustainable or realistic for every adult on the planet of driver age to have a personal car.

    Many youngsters in the west already dont want one, unlike our generation.

    Theres an explosion in electric bikes and other micro electric powered people transport that requires far less energy than a car.

    Attitudes to work are changing too amongst the young

    Eventually government (whoever it is) is going to have to look at and address the completely rediculous daily scenario of commuting hundreds of miles a week to a job that logically could be done at an employees home or a satellite centre of the main business closer to their home.

    Its going to have to look at infrastructure, working hours,food production and supply and a whole raft of other things that are currently and needlessly dependent on road and air transport.

    I dont see it as optimism on my part, i see it as completely inevitable progression and evolution of modern urban society driven by pressure on resources, environmental pollution and population growth.

    Oil gas coal and all the traditional industries of the post war 20th century are still run by old folks living in a time warp and believe nothing will change.

    Theyll get a rude awakening soon enough.

  • teslas huge battery plant will swallow up the earth resoures of lithium and other rare metals.. what about the damage making new cars will cause ..hydrogen cell is probably the best option yet..but hydrogen uses electrolosys to make..old cars are polluting but the damage was done when they where made..there is now answer to it all at the moment.. oh and electric cars move the polution out of the capatal to the power stations where we live..and to go renewables would take up a place the size of wales.. i thought wales would come in handy one day:eek::S

  • I might feel more optimistic about all this if I ignored what has happened in the past, and peered through rose-tinted glasses at the wonderful future that may await us.

    But when evaluating anything, we have to logically rely on past performance and past records, whether of countries, companies or individuals. Not on their promises. Otherwise we are ignoring what wily old Harold Wilson said, back in the 1960's - 'Elections are won on promises'.

    Yes indeed, and big sales are made on promises, and governments are run on regular promises, few of which are ever kept.

    Let's be clear on one thing: Human society has rarely if ever been run on logic. Or even ordinary everyday common-sense.

    So although the vision of an environmentally-friendly future is an appealing one, it is unlikely to happen via market forces, or even public protest. It will only happen when laws and regulations are brought in to make it happen. And whoever brings them in, in a democratic society, is going to be rather unpopular, and voted out at the next election.

    So we are left looking at an extreme scenario, like a big war or a natural cataclysm, before those who survive pick up the pieces and build, hopefully, a different society. One that is based on cooperation instead of competition, on sharing instead of greed.

  • Few civilisations have been built on cooperation or sharing and all previous empires dynastys and civilisations have collapsed,been undone by their own doing or by ignoring the obvious threats to them.

    Humans learn quickly and forget the lessons of history even more quickly.

    Despite the technology we have to solve all our problems,human civilisation globally will be brought down by the things we ignore or pay no heed to generally.

    Human fertility rates are falling dramatically.

    Virus and bacteria are outpacing our race to control them.

    Our own sun has cyclical events some of which are and have proven to be disasterous to most life forms on Earth for hundreds of years.

    Similarly tectonic and volcanic events have proven catastrophic.It does not take much activity to fill the upper atmosphere with dust and radically alter surface climate sufficiently to devastate plant growth and food production. With reduced food production and global food chain collapse millions if not billions will die.

    Evidence of such events exist both historically and in geology.

    If a similar solar flare event as the Carrington event 1850 occurred today most of our modern technology and satellites would be rendered useless because the magnetosphere around Earth is very much weaker now than it was in 1850 so we have little to no protection from major flare events.

    Because of this weakening we are also susceptible to high speed cosmic atomic particles that cause cancers and genetic mutations.

    The Earth is presently on its way to a pole reversal in less than 100 years,the last 750,000 years ago,geology tells us they dont bode well for Earth inhabitants.

    We currently live in a relatively stable terrestrial environment so assume it will always be thus when really catastrophy could be only hours or months away.

    Nothing whatsoever we can do about those events,only pick up the pieces of the wreckage of civilisation after the events and start again....if humans survive.

    In reality,regardless of how clever we think we are, we have no more control of our destiny than the dinosaurs did.

    We move deckchairs around on the Titanic is all.

  • teslas huge battery plant will swallow up the earth resoures of lithium and other rare metals.. what about the damage making new cars will cause ..hydrogen cell is probably the best option yet..but hydrogen uses electrolosys to make..old cars are polluting but the damage was done when they where made..there is now answer to it all at the moment.. oh and electric cars move the polution out of the capatal to the power stations where we live..and to go renewables would take up a place the size of wales.. i thought wales would come in handy one day:eek::S

    Lithium is only one kind of battery material and its not scarce.

    Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and electrolysis isnt the only way of making hydrogen.It can be made from zinc and hydrochloric acid and also sodium hydroxide and aluminium without any electricity at all.

    There are millions of tons of hydrogen and other gases made in the Earths mantle and released through vents in the Earths crust.

    We dont even need fuel to fire power stations,we can use geo thermal heat and we can use solar heat.Such power stations exist already.

    We only need a tiny fraction of the sahara desert covered in solar panels to power the entire globes electrical needs.

    As i said though its just not practical or sustainable for every adult on the planet to own a car,if we changed the way our minds work and how our businesses operate we wouldnt need one. We've been conned all along that we need a personal car ever since the first car makers built them and sold the idea that life would be so much simpler with one then two then three then several in a household.Same goes fir motorbikes and all the other toys we seem to feel are essential to our existence...theyre indulgent toys for the most part.Why do you need a £50k luxury sitting room to go to Asda?..you dont,no one does.You dont need a motorbike that does 150mph especially when its illegal over 70.Why do you need a tv in every room and a dozen internet capable devices per family household? Its beyond rediculous.

    Our last few generations have been supremely greedy and selfish especially in the west in believing we have an absolute right to completely unnecessary consumer products and multiples of them and extravagant lifestyles and holidays while the majority of the Earth population cant even afford basic necessities to survive.

    Humans cannot keep demanding more and more commodities simply because theyre available and they can afford them,Its simply not sustainable.

    Until humans accept this reality and reduce their personal footprint on Earthly resources and energy the race is doomed.

    Earth will survive with or without us,we're only destroying ourselves.

  • Quite correct, NRT, but missing the point that it isn't the public who 'demand' these unnecessary toys, it is the manufacturers and their advertising which provides the public with the opportunity to buy these things cheaply, and most of them do buy, big-time.

    Back in the 1970's, I can't remember anyone ever 'demanding' a personal cell phone, for example. The US military used some early models in Vietnam, but they were shyte under operational conditions, so they reverted to field telephones, WW2 type.

    A wristphone was something we read about in 'Dan Dare, Pilot of the Future', a comic strip in the Eagle kids' magazine back in the 1950's. It was just SF. Nobody in those days ever 'demanded' one, they used a standard telephone, which was what was generally available.

    People can only use what is available, and can only buy what is available. But these toys of all kinds are pumped out by the manufacturers to make big money, and keep high finance, commerce and industry going at an ever-increasing rate. Who would ever get rich in a 'tickover' environmentally-conscious society, where unnecessary production was banned?

    So we cannot totally blame the public; they can only buy what is on offer. The very great difficulty to be faced by any half-environmentally-conscious government in the future, is in taking these toys away, one by one....

  • Not just the toys , the things they arrive in . I read last week that the 5 biggest container ships pollute more than ALL the worlds cars,despite having the most efficient engines there are for their size , 16 tonnes of fuel per hour is over a gallon a SECOND , 24 hours a day 250 days a year.

  • No we didnt demand them,most of the fancy products we have now are throw-offs from the space aircraft and defence industry and them finding civilian uses for the technology.

    But now we know the capabilities people demand better stuff with more features.

    Who the fuck in reality needs a remote for a tv thats a few steps away from where theyre sitting? Laziness is a modern life occupational hazard.

    People already know 5G is coming and the chance to watch movies and play games with zero latency and getting impatient with manufacturers and networks.

    People want toys and theyre cheap and accessible.

    People want devices and appliances that do all the hard work of thinking,for them.

    Minimal owner input so they have more time to sit and be a lazy slob watching mind control tv or get involved in games or something on the internet while completely ignoring the folks in the same room as themselves.

    Maybe we really need that technology reset from a giant solar flare.

  • Yep, quite right. That would shake a lot of things up. But it's not just the electronic toys.

    As somebody who helps in a 'Men's Shed' - a sort of hobby and chat club for retired people - I am constantly amazed at the use of personal machines for making even the simplest things. A bird box, for example. Some will get the set of patterns, carefully mark up some recycled wood, then either wait to use a chop saw or a band saw to cut the wood to size, or get out a jigsaw, or a circular saw, or even a reciprocating saw, just to cut a few bits of wood that could be done by hand in half the time!

    'This is the way I do it at home!' They tell me when asked.

    If you are on a production line, or working at fabricating the same type of stuff many times over, these machines are very useful, and save valuable working time. But the home versions are so cheap to buy that many people have a full set of everything possible, and perhaps use each machine two or three times a year, if that. One guy who used to come to our 'Shed' told me he had two of several woodworking machines, in case one packed up. Yet he was only doing odd jobs around his house and garden. When I asked where he found room to mount them in his garden shed workshop, he said that most were still in the boxes they had arrived in - some had not even been opened!

    Words fail!

  • A lot of people dont have hand tools or know how to use them.

    I was doing a bit of repair the other day with a handsaw and an a hand drill and my neighbour said i could borrow his power tools. I was doing the job with handtools because i didnt want the faff of getting my own power tools out.

    What astonishes me a lot is how many folks these days have a battery power drill with a 17mm socket and bar already set up in the boot just to wind up or down the corner steady legs on their caravan and if the battery goes down run off to get another instead of just using the manual handle.....and... a battery powered cara-mover to remotely manoeuvre their caravan onto a pitch...these folks arent old and too weak theyre just lazy.

    The cartoon film Wall E was amazingly accurate.

  • Ah yes, reminding me of battery power drills!

    I can understand tradesmen having one for drilling and one for driving, but it amazes me how some of my neighbours will get out the whole power drill/driver kit to put two x 1" screws into a bit of wood. And they are much younger than me, so it's not age. They just don't seem to possess hand screwdrivers. It's the same inside their homes: some of these people live on their own, but even have a machine for washing dishes....

  • It seems ER has put forward some fairly simple propositions around which concerned individuals might coalesce.

    There certainly is more to the subtext: specifically the lack of proportional representation in the UK electoral process has been mentioned by activists.

    On the subject of power tools there is no vat exemption or tax incentive that encourages any tool sharing and typically if you use the tool twice a year for three years it is much more affordable to buy your own rather than rent......and then there is the convenience of having tools at hand as opposed to booking them in advance.

    I rented a ladder to get me on top of a van but at £15 (minimum for first day of rent) it is obviously sensible to own my own.....offer tax breaks and non-profits and get that price down to £5 or £6 quid and (as with many tools) it might then make sense.

  • Ah yes, reminding me of battery power drills!

    I can understand tradesmen having one for drilling and one for driving, but it amazes me how some of my neighbours will get out the whole power drill/driver kit to put two x 1" screws into a bit of wood. And they are much younger than me, so it's not age. They just don't seem to possess hand screwdrivers. It's the same inside their homes: some of these people live on their own, but even have a machine for washing dishes....

    On the other hand, if you have the drill/driver why not use it? Most woodworking requires predrilling holes to avoid splitting so you may as well use it to drive the screws as well.

    Although dishwashers and all the bluetooth controlled kettles, toasters, lights etc i really dont get. There are two of us (and a dog) and we can get by with washing up once a day (at the most) and washing clothes once a week or so. We can turn our own lights on and off, make our own tea..

    The amount of remotes that people have at work for stuff is amazing, especially all these alexa things etc. I have found one use for them though, whilst round there simply ask alexa to set an alarm for 3am....