Woodburners in the firing line

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  • You beat me to it NomadicRT, was listening to the report on radio 4 a bit ago. It was mentioned in brief last year but now it seems its being set on paper to happen by 2025 so the report said but in the article you linked it says 2030, its only 6 years away so there's going to have to be some re thinking on heating trucks, buses, trailors, low impact dwellings, benders and yurts etc. I think it may well apply to built up areas first rather than a blanket ban, if it is to be a blanket ban it will affect an awful lot of folk and not just folk living in vehicles and off grid.


    I have a multi fuel stove in my truck and I use smokeless ovals rather than wood, may well be smokeless fuels will be included. They call it smokeless, it does smoke, I put a fresh lot on and go outside, it does smoke for a bit while it ignites then it goes away, but wood continually smokes. i chose this fuel after doing the research, there is scientific studoes put there detailing what comes out of a chimney once a fuel is burning, out of the various fuels, the cleanest is smokeless coal/ovals/nuggets or whatever shape it comes in, studies proved that even over wood what comes oiut of an individual chimney/stack pipe smokless fuel comes out with the cleanest emissions from a chimney/stackpipe. I have just scooted round the net and cant find the study reports I first saw outlining what is the cleanest emissions from a stack pipe/chimney using the various fuel types and stoves, was a few years ago but it was in depth, so on a personal level, what my stack pipe puts out, smokeless came out on top.

  • As I see it there will be 'legal' solid fuels available and no doubt that will be reflected in the double/triple price tag, what will they do with the dirtier coal,put it back ? I think not , it will be burned regardless...........

  • Ironically this is a response to the recent deaths from vehicle pollution related deaths and the explosion of woodburner use in London mainly because theyre both cheap and trendy.


    So to tackle the huge particulate problem of vehicles from diesel and clutch and brake parts they bring curbs in on woodburners and coal burning open fires...so what happens in areas where the only economic fuel available is peat and the cost of processed smokeless fuels is beyond affordable.


    Only folks who will benefit from this measure are those who manufacture the smokeless wood pellets and smokeless fuel from coal.


    Im waiting for the government to do whats happening in the US banning off grid living and the installation of solar panels.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

  • No doubt the government are raking in serious money on diesel taxes, so they don't want to ban diesel as a fuel just yet. So they look around at a minority use to pin some blame on, and show how environmentally-conscious they are.


    As said above, special low-emission fuels will no doubt continue to be sold, but they may well carry an 'environment tax', which no doubt will go into the general fund for making wars in foreign lands and building more motorways and airports rather than go to hospitals and nursing care.


    Although some coals, like anthracite, naturally burn relatively 'clean', almost any coal can go through a coking process to render it 'clean-burning', but that process also causes emissions, most of which are filtered out during the manufacturing process, one hopes.

  • Theres nothing actually wrong with vehicles,manufacturers have incorporated more and more technology to make them more economical and filter out exhaust emissions to higher and higher standards,those measures arent without substantial costs but neither are electric vehicles a radical solution that fixes everything nor are they better for the environment.The electric has to come from somewhere as do all the resoirces to build the electronics.


    The fundamental problem is there are too many personal vehicles, government policy increasingly makes us all more reliant on personal vehicles because there is no satisfactory public alternative outside of inner city areas.


    There has never ever been any policy or action to dealing with the basic problems vehicles cause in large numbers from commuting back and forth to workplace and home and the working times which concentrate commuting to narrow daily time bands.


    We are conditioned to own a car or multiple cars and to work 8-4, 9-5 our schools hours are the same too,so there are always peaks in volume of traffic and atmospheric pollutants twice a day.


    Many moons ago i remember computers being touted as our salvation,commuting would become unnecessary,most of us would work from home or mobile. Unnecessarily tedious manual jobs would be eliminated (that bit has come partially true) and we would all live healthier lives with more leisure time.....hmm...why then are we still commuting to workplaces to do work we could do at home, spending hours commuting -eating into our leisure time -and spending our wages on burning fuel commuting to workplaces.?


    Theres never any joined up thinking going on.


    So the answer they come up with is apply solutions to issues that arent a problem or manufacture a crisis like drone threats to airports to avoid telling anyone they really havent a clue what theyre doing.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by NomadicRT ().

  • The trouble is the whole current system of the country and the way it runs for it to work was designed and created around roads and transport and now because the problems with this has come to the fore they are trying to find and implement solutions but not change the system per se to overcome the issues so it has and is going to land on the shoulders of the general public in the form of taxes and banning certain things out of existence which in turn as always will greatly affect the poorest and elderly.

  • How will this be policed I wonder? , restricting sale of unseasoned wood will have no effect on most of us , I own a chainsaw and am very partial to fallen Ash...,anyways dry seasoned wood is only that if it is stored in a dry airy place ie not on the cabin roof as most boaters do. Approved solid fuels will probably be some fancy mix of sawdust/coal briquettes but I cant see anything burning much cleaner than 'Multiheat' the stuff I currently use .

    Raises the question of how the logs for sale will be dried, dried in coal powered kilns or huge additional storage facilities? , I have heard that power plants are running on wood chips nowadays,how much energy is used to make the chips (bearing in mind that most is imported from Canada) ?


    Feels as though its a token gesture to lower pollution whilst they decide on the placing of the new Heathrow runway and the various infrastructure (bus lanes).

  • I buy kiln dried hardwood logs they burn what I would say clean,i also have the sweep round every year to service and clean my burner and liner.I also have a carbon monoxide alarm fitted.Michael Gove can go fuck himself,i can't see his plan going down too well in the tory Cotswolds or with people who's only source of heat are logs .

  • My interpretation of the proposals as they stand at the moment is that it's mostly about making wet wood commercially unavailable then enforcing rules in smokeless areas then trying to control or ban the sale of burners that don't meet smokes less requirements.


    I use whatever smokeless I can buy locally 2 or 3 bags at a time....I've found 'brazier' (with its relatively small briquettes) gives me a fairly controllable burn that stays in longer than 50/50 or others that are larger briquettes (in my small but not tiny van based burner).


    Definitely smokes a lot with each new load. Generally I try to add just a few coals at a time to try to prevent further visits from fire brigade and police.

  • My interpretation of the proposals as they stand at the moment is that it's mostly about making wet wood commercially unavailable then enforcing rules in smokeless areas then trying to control or ban the sale of burners that don't meet smokes less requirements.


    I use whatever smokeless I can buy locally 2 or 3 bags at a time....I've found 'brazier' (with its relatively small briquettes) gives me a fairly controllable burn that stays in longer than 50/50 or others that are larger briquettes (in my small but not tiny van based burner).


    Definitely smokes a lot with each new load. Generally I try to add just a few coals at a time to try to prevent further visits from fire brigade and police.

    Brazier is one of the many brands. I used to use homefire ovals but thats gone up in price quite a lot so have gone over to stove heat, smaller ovals than homefire but not far off the same lengthy burn time and heat giving. I have it delivered and this time got 20 bags in so I dont have to keep fetching it and it worked out over £1.50 a bag cheaper in bulk, need to order another 20 next week and that should see me through winter unless we hit a freeze, but in this mild run we're getting keeping the burner going and me toasty warm has been mighty economical.


    I think how it will pan out is it will be built up areas where a ban on burning wood and the sale of wood will be seen and the sale of burners and stoves that do not comply with whatever smokeless regs that will be set. Wether some kind of filter system will have to be installed if current stoves are to be allowed to stay in use will remain ti be seen.


    If I was making old school steel woodburners for alternative living abodes, cabins, eco low impact builds, boats, vehicles etc for a living I'd be wanting to know whats what as far as new laws as its going to affect folk who make stoves. Adding a well designed baffle and a grate with the right airflow going in under the grate will allow for the efficient use of smokless fuels, whereas wood needs the airflow going in above as well to burn wood efficiently especially if there's no grate.

  • Where we live is on an old heath-land, so fairly high up, and so far no restrictions, but relatives lower down across town in the river valley are in a smokeless area, where only prescribed fuels may (legally) be burnt.

    They can burn wood as well as smokeless stuff, but only kiln-dried, and other regs like that. Comes under local council restrictions apparently.They have been intending to put a big stove in to heat the small house entirely (open-plan), but this latest announcement has left them wondering.

  • You find a cheap or free way of living they find a way to tax it or make it illegal..thats how British Establishment always works.


    As far as your relatives are concerned I would just do it,only make sure the stove was a multifuel one capable of burning a wide range of fuels.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

  • You find a cheap or free way of living they find a way to tax it or make it illegal..thats how British Establishment always works.


    As far as your relatives are concerned I would just do it,only make sure the stove was a multifuel one capable of burning a wide range of fuels.

    As much as that can be said to be true in some aspects but the clamp down on woodburners isnt solely about taxing a free way of living although it is always the less well off that get hit the hardest when things like this get put in place. I wonder why they cant introduce filter system/particle caption systems to be installed rather than banning wood burners but then no doubt that would be an expensive outlay.

  • No I lnow its not about taxing folk but it will become an excuse to to both deter folks from using wood and coal and get revenue from sales of manufactured fuel.


    As I said before non of this is addressing the real issues,the deadly particulate emissions from ALL vehicles, fuel particulates,ceramic dust from clutch and brake parts and vaporised leaking oils.Or an even more toxic problem,agricultural sprays.Technically woodburners in urban areas should already come under the existing smokeless zone laws introduced decades ago to tackle smog.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

  • Yes humans have fucked it up environmentally,we've done the equivalent of shitting in our own goldfish bowl.Its tragic really but humans arrogantly think they have the right to wreck the planet and can fix problems.


    But,we wont be here in large numbers for too long because extinction events are cyclical.The oceans warming and cooling is cyclically,droughts floods,violent weather extremes, hot climates/cold climates are all cyclical based on the solar cycles.



    The Earth will survive perfectly well with or without us,most likely we will be culled massively by disaster as has happened in the past.

    We do ourselves no favors polluting the Earth to the extent we do and meddling with natural systems like putting in dams,cutting down rainforest and attempting climate manipulation but the solar cycle already points to a global warm up and extreme weather then a rapid cooling into mini glacial period as we had 1400 to 1850 from 2050

    Human civilisation will likely collapse then if we dont poison ourselves or killed by war beforehand.

    The magnetic polar reversal is reducing our protective magnetosphere so we'll be more vulnerable to the suns radiation and high energy particles from space which cause cancer, strokes heart attacks,cataracts, fertility loss...and increasein volcanic activity and Earthquakes.... Its all happened before this isnt anything new.

    Ancient civilisations all knew this but somehow modern man seems incapable of grasping this.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

  • Hadnt seen that one before but spot on.

    If you consider that every lifeform on the planet now (including us) came from an alnost total extinction event only 65 million years back,we do not matter at all.


    But but but..." we only have 12 years to save the planet"

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by NomadicRT ().

  • The biggest problem that is causing the biggest issues is human population. there is far too many of us now and science is involved with keeping people alive for much longer than is our natural lifespan. In the greater scheme of things as far as nature goes is when a species becomes far too succesful it ends up being the cause of it own demise which is the road that us humans are on. Look at the biggest civilisations that have materialised on Earth, the Mayans, the Roman civilisation etc, they all had their demise. We are skating on thin ice as we know as the planet cannot sustaintian the volime of populations that are exloding out of all proportions and the growth of major countries like China and India are eating their resources up like thye are going put of fashion. Carrying on like we are there is going to be little left with irrepairable damage. The planet will carry on but all we are doing is causing our own demise as a species and somethimes I feel the sooner the better as its painful to watch the modern world eating, using and abusing the precious resources and the planet itself. Curbing the population explosion only comes with howls of disdain as too many people think its their earthly right to have kids and add to the problem. there is a reason many people cannot have kids yet science has intervened and provides the means at great expense, and when so many unwanted abandoned children need homes. Humans as a whole are not prepared to address the real time problems, population explosions and the massive resource greedy growth of industry to modernise otherwise not so modern countries as they want to be in line with the rich west.

  • Because humans are arrogant,'we' think 'we' can use, abuse and control and fix everything.

    We are part and parcel of a natural system though and will be subject to the same species control mechanisms as all the others that have come and gone.

    Sooner or later we will all or nearly all be gone.

    Global crop failure, disease and war most probably.

    Di occhi belli ne è pieno il mondo,ma di occhi che ti guardano con sincerità e amore, c'è ne sono pochi. :hippy: