Being Vegan doesn't suit everybody, apparently....

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  • Being Vegan doesn't suit everybody, apparently, not even after many years on the diet.


    Why would this be?

    Different genetic makeup, from racial, climatic, or geographical backgrounds far back in the past?


    Logically, Veganism looks like being the best way to feed future human populations, except that masses of food would have to be grown in warmer climates to export to colder climates. Unless the world warmed up considerably, and that, in turn, would bring big adverse farming changes.

  • I find most modern vegan cookbooks a bit , mmm how do I say it ,well a bit beardy , trendy and poncy ,

    now I ain't a fat bloke or nuffin but I like my food and a decent amount of it , we just tend to use a normal straight cookbooks from the charity shops and if we like the look of a meal just use something in place of the meat ,

  • oldkeith,


    I think that the problem is that you can't coerce people into being Vegan. This much I've learned! If a person isn't happy with their food, everything else goes haywire in the life too.

    This is why the Vegan diet doesn't suit them; deep down they want to eat meat, because they don't really care what happens to the animal!

    Laziness plays a big part in it, as does a lack of understanding in the meat industry today.

    I often wonder at people my age, who have children, yet they don't seem to care about their children's future as all their actions are killing their environment! What future is there without a suitable environment?

    I hope I haven't offended you, which seems to be the norm around here!?

  • In my experience people often want to eat meat because they want to -- and as such they welcome any information they can find to excuse themselves.


    For every person I've met who says "I can't be vegan because" I've met another one being vegan in spite of that objection -- so, people with IBS can be vegan, people with low iron can be vegan, people with celiac can be vegan and so on.


    When you hear the food / eating disorder objections, all you have to do is look at their clothes to see leather, wool, silk etc. and as such they often don't get that being vegan extends to way beyond diet.


    Yes, having an issue with some foods can make it more inconvenient, but we don't use "convenience" as an excuse to abuse humans do we?

  • Point is, nature created us to eat meat hence the pointy teeth. I eat meat because I want to & I don't see why I should feel guilty for that. I don't keep animals in bad conditions, or treat them cruelly, I just like meat. I don't frown at people who don't eat it, or try to make them eat it. Tonight I'm having veggie soup, so it's not a prerequisite. Don't see what business it is of anyone elses, or why they feel the need to judge me.

  • Not personally but your money funds other people to do it for you. For me, it's not about whether we're mean't to eat meat or not, i just don't want to fund a system that treats animals cruelly and farming most definitely does.

    Completely your decision & I respect it, just saying why don't I get the same deal? How do you know where I source my meat from? How do you know it's not all ethically produced? Maybe I only eat meat i hunt myself, you don't know yet you feel justified telling me that I support animal cruelty.

  • Point is, nature created us to eat meat hence the pointy teeth.

    No, the teeth we call canines are meant for biting into fruit -- and the reason we see in colour is so we can recognise fruit.


    Our teeth would be pretty useless for catching and eating animals, which is why we needed to develop weapons and cooking to catch and eat prey.


    We're primates, and this means we're predominantly frugivorous scavengers (rather than true omnivores) and as such we can eat animal protein but don't actually need it to thrive or survive.

    Gorillas are 99%+ herbivorous, and they have the biggest teeth you could possibly imagine.

  • How do you know where I source my meat from? How do you know it's not all ethically produced?

    The chances are the animal had an interest in staying alive - as human beings who have evolved self-awareness and consciences, we can choose to allow them to live out there lives unhindered.


    Allowing an animal agency over its own life vs killing an animal for an unnecessary meal -- which is really the more ethical?

  • Interesting replies, but none answers the questions posed, which were looking at hereditary background traits, especially those which may be responsible for dietary preferences.


    One or two replies are stating that even though vegan, some people, presumably deep down inside their subconscious, still want to eat meat. For 26 years? Really?


    It is understandable that some people might continue to stay vegan even if they felt constantly unwell, for ethical reasons, but most of us would probably try different types of diet, exercise, meditation, etc, to try to become healthier. Would we ignore our veganism in this search for better health? Would such people become martyrs to the cause of not killing and eating the bodies of other beings, even if it eventually killed them?


    We must not forget, as one reply states, for every one person that says a vegan diet is unsuitable for them for health reasons, there is another person who has found better health and fitness in a vegan diet.


    From an ethical point of view, guided by an informed conscience, veganism is perhaps second only to fruitarianism as an ethical mode of life. But for most people practicalities must take first place over ethics, and the less they know about the realities of animal farming and slaughtering, the easier it is to carry on as usual in the system you were brought up in. This is of course laziness, as one reply pointed out. It is also evasion, because if you don't look into the tin of worms, you won't feel queasy.


    However, to move away from ethics, why is it that some people feel they have to eat meat, and say they feel better for it, and others are quite happy on a vegan diet, and often healthier than they were as a meat-eater?

  • No, the teeth we call canines are meant for biting into fruit -- and the reason we see in colour is so we can recognise fruit.


    Our teeth would be pretty useless for catching and eating animals, which is why we needed to develop weapons and cooking to catch and eat prey.


    We're primates, and this means we're predominantly frugivorous scavengers (rather than true omnivores) and as such we can eat animal protein but don't actually need it to thrive or survive.

    Gorillas are 99%+ herbivorous, and they have the biggest teeth you could possibly imagine.

    Not disputing that Paul, just saying it's my decision & no one elses weather i eat meat. Don't see why anybody else needs to take me to task about it.

  • However, to move away from ethics, why is it that some people feel they have to eat meat, and say they feel better for it, and others are quite happy on a vegan diet, and often healthier than they were as a meat-eater?

    Pre existing food intolerances? As a baby i was bottle fed cows milk and apparently spent the first year of my life vomiting after every bottle. In later life i had food sensitivity blood tests done and it turns out that i had a serious intolerance to cows milk. So it stands to reason that i'd feel better on a vegan diet.

  • Yes, food intolerances are often hereditary.


    Presumably some of us may come from tribes/races that kept cattle or goats for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years. During that time anyone who could not live on a diet of dairy and meat would have died out, and their descendants today would have no difficulty eating meat.


    Others might have lived for thousands of years in Mediterranean areas, on much more of a plant-based diet, and their descendants today might still be intolerant of much meat or dairy products. (On a personal note, I have to keep to half a pint of milk a day at max. I instinctively avoided milk at school, and got ill when drinking two pints a day when weight-training as a young man. I was tested and found to be partially allergic to milk but, oddly enough, not to cheese or butter).

  • Might sound a daft question but if humans, according to all the unbiased views on here, are not supposed to rely on animal protein to stay alive and grow then why do woman lactate to feed babies or is mothers milk really carrot juice and there's some bigger plan in evolution that people are missing.


    Oh babies hungry again, I know, give him a lettuce, he'll be quiet and grow fat on it..........


    Which goes on to beg the question, how do real vegans feed their babies?

  • Completely your decision & I respect it, just saying why don't I get the same deal? How do you know where I source my meat from? How do you know it's not all ethically produced? Maybe I only eat meat i hunt myself, you don't know yet you feel justified telling me that I support animal cruelty.

    Because i don't believe there'a such a thing as ethically produced meat. For me it's a contradiction in terms.

  • Another question, why do vegans have to fortify their diet with B12 supplements or risk illhealth. Herbivores absorb it naturally whereas humans, as far as I'm aware, don't ?


    Looked at giving up meat or changing my diet some time back and there appeared to be drawbacks but over the years having bought cheap meat from the system I like to think I'm a tad more wiser and source who and where I buy from. Like Bigbear I am concerned about what I eat nowadays and more than that, the welfare of what I eat.


    Having said that, I'm still open to persuasion to change.


    Quote

    Gorillas are 99%+ herbivorous, and they have the biggest teeth you could possibly imagine.

    The 1% or higher is insects and grubs but bonobos, our closest relative are omnivorous.

  • Another question, why do vegans have to fortify their diet with B12 supplements or risk illhealth. Herbivores absorb it naturally whereas humans, as far as I'm aware, don't ?

    I'm not sure of the full science of this, but as far as I know B12 is synthesised in the gut from bacteria that occurs naturally on vegetation and in soil.


    Modern farming techniques (and the washing of veg) means that humans don't get this bacteria so easily as they would if living a truly natural lifestyle.


    Animals that graze will ingest it, but a lot of farmed animals are also artificially supplemented so it gets passed onto humans indirectly. Some animals get B12 when they eat poop :vomit:


    We need very little of it, and it's stored in the body for a long time -- but deficiency is something that affects a lot of people, not just vegans.

  • No, the teeth we call canines are meant for biting into fruit -- and the reason we see in colour is so we can recognise fruit.


    Our teeth would be pretty useless for catching and eating animals, which is why we needed to develop weapons and cooking to catch and eat prey.


    We're primates, and this means we're predominantly frugivorous scavengers (rather than true omnivores) and as such we can eat animal protein but don't actually need it to thrive or survive.

    Gorillas are 99%+ herbivorous, and they have the biggest teeth you could possibly imagine.

    Seriously, big pointy teeth are for eating fruit?

  • The chances are the animal had an interest in staying alive - as human beings who have evolved self-awareness and consciences, we can choose to allow them to live out there lives unhindered.


    Allowing an animal agency over its own life vs killing an animal for an unnecessary meal -- which is really the more ethical?

    You do realise these animals only have any life at all because they're bred for meat. If we weren't going to eat them, who would bother breading them? We aren't in the Savannah, where herds of wild animals would wonder freely across the plains. Nobody would pay to feed them just cos would they.

  • You do realise these animals only have any life at all because they're bred for meat.

    Would you bring a human being into the world just to imprison, enslave, kill and eat it?


    Never being born is not the same as being killed prematurely - or are you suggesting these animals should all be grateful for the miserable lives we afford them?

  • The 1% or higher is insects and grubs but bonobos, our closest relative are omnivorous.

    Opportunistic omnivores (primates) are a little different to true omnivores (like pigs and bears) but otherwise I agree.


    However, apes don't use smartphones, wipe their arses on paper or drive to the shops on sale day.


    So, while we do have anthropological traits related to our distant cousins, we have also developed a greater capacity for self-awareness, the ability to make ethical choices and can generally discern between survival and convenience.


    Our lives are very different to wild primates, so why use their behaviour as a justification for anything?

  • Plus apes don't judge each other or piss & moan about each others life choices.....

  • Plus apes don't judge each other or piss & moan about each others life choices.....

    No, because they're not as aware as we are -- so, considering we do have that awareness, is it right to make a "life choice" that involves consciously harming others?


    I'd suggest however, that it isn't a "choice", that we've been conditioned by societal norms to unconsciously partake in something harmful without questioning it -- and stepping away from that is the real choice.

  • Our minds may be advanced but our bodies are still designed for some meat eating and dictate otherwise which comes back to eating meat natures way to keep ahead with certain vital vitamins ect, mainly B12 or using unnatural manmade B12 created in a lab. That is a fact that cannot be argued.


    Hypothetical situation - put 20 vegans and 20 omnivores on an island with all the seeds and animals required to maintain their lifestyle and nothing manmade. After 30 yrs how many vegans will be healthy or alive?


    Quote

    https://www.vegansociety.com/r…ld-know-about-vitamin-b12


    Very low B12 intakes can cause anemia and nervous system damage. The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms. Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anemia and nervous system damage, but many do not get enough to minimize potential risk of heart disease or pregnancy complications.

    To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:

    1. Eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (mcg or µg) of B12 a day
    2. OR Take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms
    3. OR Take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.

    To survive on a vegan diet the human body requires unnatural food, ie, fortified foods with additives which do not naturally occur in nature or to take manmade supplements.

  • our bodies are still designed

    Who by? I get what you're saying, but design isn't the way we are - it's adaptation. We adapted to eat certain foods at certain times to survive, but that doesn't mean we need to keep eating them.

    For example, the ice age is thought to be the reason we started eating large mammals, but we're not in an ice age any more.

    the human body requires unnatural food

    If you eat beef from a cow that's been fed B12, then the B12 has been filtered through the cow -- there's no such thing as "natural" in the civilised western world - and in terms of nutrients, natural doesn't necessarily mean better.

    Hypothetical situation - put 20 vegans and 20 omnivores on an island with all the seeds and animals required to maintain their lifestyle and nothing manmade. After 30 yrs how many vegans will be healthy or alive?

    Real life situation - put 20 vegans and 20 omnivores in a civilisation with an absolute abundance of choice, who will be statistically more likely to develop arteriosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, erectile dysfunction, obesity, stroke, depression, cancer or type 2 diabetes after 30 years (or less)? ;)

  • All I can say is that I haven't eaten meat for 14 years and I've been vegan for over 5 years - I'm 50 years old (nearly 51), I'm not on any medication for anything and I've just come back from the gym and an 8km run.

    My last short term partner was 20 years younger than me, the one before her was 29 years younger than me - I weigh just over 11 stone, my skin is clear, and I can put many guys half my age to shame in terms of physical health - most people think I look way younger than I am, hence the younger women ;)


    Not all of that is down to being vegan and you can be healthy without it, but it absolutely gives me a fighting chance - the arguments against (and I've heard them all) are just excuses not to change, but my lifestyle and personal health speaks for itself.

    The only things wrong with me are shite eyesight and occasional bouts of narcissism :p


    Oh and the basal cell carcinoma I had last year was cleared up with an unnatural treatment, but that was clearly nothing to do with diet.


    It's not about health though - that's just a bonus, and demonstrates how little we need animal protein to thrive.