Is the EU our enemy?

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  • No Deal- Hard Brexit-Hard Border is inevitable and it's not a matter of choice.


    There are 3 parties to this game: the UK , the EU and the Irish (all of them, North+South).


    A compromise is achievable at the last minute about free trade, free movement and the so called rebate.


    But in order to avoid a hard border between NI and Eire, NI needs to be part of the common market. It is a sensible solution, if it wasn't that the British government cannot accept for fear of losing face. Not that they have any face left, but they are good at pretending because the media is still pretty much Tory friendly.


    No custom union, no soft border.


    Hard border means repudiation of the GFA. In other words, prepare for NI to be annexed to Eire any time soon. Scotland will follow.


    Bring it on!

  • Or simply make the Irish Sea the border and revert to the traditional Irish border tensions. That fairly simple solution is being blocked by the half a dozen DUP troublemakers Mrs May bribed, er sorry, gave a financial incentive to, to keep her slim majority. Can six seemingly bigoted people scupper the whole thing? Apparently so....

  • Or simply make the Irish Sea the border and revert to the traditional Irish border tensions. That fairly simple solution is being blocked by the half a dozen DUP troublemakers Mrs May bribed, er sorry, gave a financial incentive to, to keep her slim majority. Can six seemingly bigoted people scupper the whole thing? Apparently so....

    No, please. Don't blame the six DUPers! There's a consistent part of the Tory party that would be ok with the break up of the Union. Imagine what it would be for England if the occupied territories of Scotland and NI left the Union? A Tory majority forever! It's only Labour that need Scotland.

  • No, please. Don't blame the six DUPers! There's a consistent part of the Tory party that would be ok with the break up of the Union. Imagine what it would be for England if the occupied territories of Scotland and NI left the Union? A Tory majority forever! It's only Labour that need Scotland.

    No - I'm blaming Mrs May. Anyway what is the problem with the break up of the Union anyway. Countries that are ruled by other countries? That's a type of occupation.


    Why would the break up lead to a Tory majority forever? Asides of the ridiculousness of "forever" as a political concept, are no other political parties up to winning an election?

  • Probably there was a general feeling that there was too much corruption in the EU, and in the dealings of some wealthy people in this country with the EU. Certainly most of the working people I spoke with before the referendum were going to vote to come out. For a variety of reasons, often to do with how they had seen their skilled and semi-skilled wages drop drastically as a result of a large influx of workers from eastern EU countries, who were willing to do the same work for minimum wages, which employers loved.

    Just as planned by the economic planners of the EU, of course.


    UKIP had a variety of reasons too, from jingoism and dislike of being ordered about by a country we had already beaten twice in two world wars, to what they saw as the free-wheeling independence of going it alone, to deluded visions of Britain becoming Great again.

    I don't think UKIP were overly concerned with EU corruption, they probably had some of their own to deal with.

    That would be an odd plan. As a large influx to one country leads to a large outflow from others. Leading to wage rises in the those countries. So if that is their master plan, it's a bit like starting a fight and kicking yourself in the balls!

  • Or simply make the Irish Sea the border and revert to the traditional Irish border tensions. That fairly simple solution is being blocked by the half a dozen DUP troublemakers Mrs May bribed, er sorry, gave a financial incentive to, to keep her slim majority. Can six seemingly bigoted people scupper the whole thing? Apparently so....

    No, not at all they can't. What ever will be will be.

  • Post by TheConstantGarde ().

    This post was deleted by Paul: Uncalled for ().
  • We almost have surprisingly respectful statutory minimum wage and holiday and working hours opt out in the UK.....I doubt any of these would exist without tensions from the EU.......BUT as others point out we don't really know any different.


    I do not trust spineless UK powermongering sellouts and souless profiteers to further the interests of the common indigenous population and place far more faith in the likes of France and Germany and Denmark to effect a more democratic solution to the pisstaking hammering that is likely coming our way.


    This is a desert nation. It is understandable that the commoner is pissed off and frustrated and wants change but the EU was protecting the commoner from the more extreme nastiness that is about to reign once EU protections are removed.


    Brexit is a good thing because it will highlight what spineless, self serving cunts our governors truly are.

  • You really think we are leaving then?


    You are not yet aware that all this spineless shilly-shallying is merely a feigned attempt at leaving by a bunch of wealthy Tories who never expected the vote they got?

    Who are presently colluding with the EU to either keep us in to keep them rich, or make arrangements to leave in name only, but in actuality keep us tightly bound.

    This, I think, is a more accurate view of what is actually going on. Alas.

  • The EU was working reasonably well until 2004 when ten countries were allowed to join. None of them even remotely met the conditions required for joining.


    Countries like Czech Rep, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Poland, Slovinia, Slovakia, Malta and Cyprus.


    They were mostly former Communist Block states from behind the old iron curtain with no money, no industries, no economy worth speaking about and in many cases very dodgy governments. They were bizarrely given full membership and voting rights from day one.


    Nobody has ever explained why they were allowed to join. I cannot make that point too strongly, there was no reason on earth for letting them join.


    Conspiracy theorist will point out that the land mass of the EU now almost exactly mirrors the landmass occupied by the Nazis in WW2. Virtually all the countries that joined in 2004 with the exception of Malta were occupied by the Hitler or his allies.


    Conspiracy? or spooky co-incidence? you tell me...…………..


    From that day on the playing field was not level, you cannot trade with trading partners who have no money. But they can draw down EU subsidies and vote against us.


    Brexit became inevitable from that time, the EU became dysfunctional and tried to hide the cracks that were appearing by becoming more and more heavy handed. Their treatment of Greece, Italy and to a lesser extent Spain financially was appalling. Were we to fall into difficulties how would we fare?


    This is the key point that never gets asked is why? It needs to come into the public debate because it is so significant, so pivotal to the debate and the future of the EU with or without us


    Has the EU been hijacked by strange and sinister forces or ideologies we thought were dead?

  • One of the over-riding reasons that the Eastern European countries were allowed (invited, asked, begged?) to join was the disparity in wages between those countries and the EU. It meant that every employer in the Western areas of the EU would enjoy a flood of cheap labour. Which would bring wages tumbling down. Which it did.


    Initially, some Eastern Europeans were earning the equivalent, in a week, of two or three month's wages back home. Of course, this money did not stay in the UK; most of it was sent home, as you might expect. Gradually, UK and EU employers began using shorter contracts, where it was legal to do so. When it was time to renew a British worker's contract, he/she would now find the wage offered had fallen to just above the minimum wage. If they didn't take it, there were plenty of Eastern European workers ready to jump in, as the minimum wage was still high compared to what they would have earned for the same job back home.


    All this is simple economics, and planned beforehand by those wealthy people who force the hands of the EU. Wages were brought down dramatically, and now some of it - that earned by immigrant workers - was being channeled out of the country, instead of being spent locally.


    Some of these workers have now made their packet, and gone home, where wages have gradually risen, as might be expected. Nobody can blame these workers, who saw the opportunity to better themselves financially; our chaps were working in Germany in the 1970's for twice and sometimes treble the wages they would have got back here at home.


    We have to blame the EU for these policies, and our government for going along with it. But as our government at the time was run by champagne socialists who were hand in hand with the bankers, what more could you expect?

  • I agree with almost everything you say except for the bit about the politicians. I believe that Blair and Brown were easily flattered and seduced by better and more manipulative players on the other side.

    Blair certainly was suckered by the adoration heaped on him by the Bush administration in the run up to GW2. He rolled over and took it up the a*** and they were laughing at him behind their hands. How many of our boys died as a result?

  • Blair and Brown were easily suckered, is true. But when Brown saved the Bankers by spending billions of public money on the failing banks, that showed up these champagne socialists for what they were.

    A Socialist government would have let them perish, then nationalised them when their shares were at rock-bottom. But hey, the EU doesn't allow nationalisation, does it, so you can't have a Socialist country in the EU, whether you want it or not. (Hence Corbyn's dilemma).

  • I guess that's because they believe they will make more money by us being in the EU. That, after all, is the nature of capitalism (although I doubt it is what Adam Smith had in mind all those years ago when he came up with the title).

  • I guess that's because they believe they will make more money by us being in the EU. That, after all, is the nature of capitalism (although I doubt it is what Adam Smith had in mind all those years ago when he came up with the title).

    True, but is Farage the friend of the worker? I mean we've had many of those over the years and fuck me, with friends like that eh?

  • The EU was working reasonably well until 2004 when ten countries were allowed to join. None of them even remotely met the conditions required for joining.

    [citation needed]


    > Countries like Czech Rep, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Poland, Slovinia, Slovakia, Malta and Cyprus.


    It's called Slovenia.


    > They were mostly former Communist Block states from behind the old iron curtain

    Well, this is one of the few places where you are not far from the truth.

    > with no money, no industries, no economy worth speaking about and in many cases very dodgy governments.

    Not true. Poland, for example (as I am most familiar with the case), was the fastest growing country in Europe - decade before 2004 Polish GDP grew by nearly 50%. Poland exported goods worth nearly 80 bln USD. Poland, even compared to it's size, in 2004 had more advanced industries than, for example Portugal - by well over a half.

    Side note: It's worth to remember that back when UK was allowed to join the EU, it has not been exactly the land of milk and money - it was actually lagging well behind EEC average. Therefore it brings a question to mind: why UK can join the club even if it's poor and benefit from membership, but other countries (especially those, who due to Yalta agreement were sold to Russians in order to ensure peace and prosperity for the rest of Europe) have to become rich first?


    > They were bizarrely given full membership and voting rights from day one.


    Not true again. Those countries had their basic EU rights restricted. Other member countries were allowed to suspend freedom of movement and other rights for over a decade.


    > Nobody has ever explained why they were allowed to join.

    Not true again. They were told: if you want to join, you have to meet those conditions and then we have to agree on other things.

    They met set conditions and negotiated other things, they adjusted their laws so they were in line with EU laws, and so they were allowed in. It's that simple, really.

    > I cannot make that point too strongly, there was no reason on earth for letting them join.

    Your point would be stronger if you actually had some arguments other than your feeling, that those second class countries should not be allowed to join :)


    > From that day on the playing field was not level, you cannot trade with trading partners who have no money. But they can draw down EU subsidies and vote against us.

    Ah, yes, as if when Britain joined EEC it hasn't been a cheap labour source for Europe. As if Britons never were doing what Poles and Lithuanians are doing now - being a cheap spine of European transport or migrating en masse to get better paid jobs in Germany...

    You really live in some fairy land, mate...

    But the whole point of letting "them" join is to ultimately create level playing field around Europe, which, by your own reporting, is already happening. It is better to deal with pay inequalities for decade or two, than to artificially try to keep the Iron Curtain up and running, dividing rich countries from the poor ones, as this will in no scenario work well for anyone.

    > Has the EU been hijacked by strange and sinister forces or ideologies we thought were dead?


    Yes. It's worldwide anti-British conspiracy, aiming to make the best country ever insignificant. They are going to chip all Britons, so they will have it easier to have them replaced by those dreadful Slovinians. There was even a James Bond movie to be shot about it, but their pulled the strings so the story remains hidden.

    They will have to send their reptilian killers after you now, as they need to kill you now, as you've learned too much! You need to turn to Aśtar Sheran now, as he is your only hope!
    http://www.heavenly-angels.org/