House of Lords blocks Brexit

Welcome to UKHIppy2764@2x.png

UKHippy is a long running online community and of likeminded people exploring all interpretations on what it means to be living an alternative lifestyle -- we welcome discussions on everything related to sustainability, the environment, alternative spirituality, music, festivals, politics and more -- membership of this website is free but supported by the community.

  • A Bangers and Mash, down to earth view on this and why the UK must leave the EU.



    Do we really want to be part of a relentless march to closer economic (read ECB and Euro) and Legislative enforcement from above by a "European" Roman based Civil Law set of bureaucrats that does not take into account the UK's legal system based on our Equitable approach to Law......?



    https://www.independent.co.uk/…stice-system-8931215.html



    Talking of our (UK) legal system and its history back to Magna Carta. To quote Hancock, "did she die in vain?



    Some 70% of our financial service legislation (in the UK) is as a direct result of the EU. Legislation that didn't stop Italian institutions (for instance) selling investment grade products ILLEGALLY to retail customers in exchange for lending money to said retail customers! That is so wrong in oh so many ways, and why hasn't Italy been brought to task for this? "For the greater good!"


    According to Eurocrats there is no two speed Europe- what planet are they on? Their objective is to have full monetary AND political union, the Euro is NOT an option if you stay in the EU. Do we (in the UK) really want to join the financial system with say, the current Italian Government? Do the Germans! No, to be fair, they want ONE EU Government!


    The growth in "popularist" parties will only get worse as more westerners become even more disillusioned with an ever remote political elite and seek to "anchor" their biases by seeking the company of only people who share the same and dismissing out of hand those they do not agree with, or worse.... Unfortunately we've been here before in Europe...



    That said what an interesting thread, carry on, but lets get out of the EU :-)


    ps don't get me started on how GDPR has been written by the EU and unintended consequences.... Letter of the law (UK) vs what the authors were thinking when they enacted it[panic]....

  • Nigel Farage is another window of life, like Tommy Robinson, luv em or hate em, folk are doing what they can to show us their view.


    There is so much happening in the world, will we recognise any of it in 10 years? Are we so far up our arses that there maybe no saving the trip. More and more we are told of back stage agendas and international vote meddling, conspiracy accusations. No one trusts a world spoken by governments or the media. We all want something different and the years and years of Tory government election wins have done nothing but chip away at my expectations. Then some years and general elections ago. We got the Labour win. Only what a bunch of sell outs they were.

    So here we are, forcing change at the very top, at the very heart of control and management. Watch this space, but be prepared for a degree of disappointment, again.

  • Currently UK is not export market for the EU. Just 2.3 of total over 15 millions of cars sold in the EU are sold in Britain. This is nowhere near your 28%. Stroke those 800 cars manufactured in Britain and you'll have just under 10% of total.

    My figures are taken from last year, 2017, from the European Automobile Manufacturers Association.

    Where do your figures come from? What 800 cars are you talking about?

    Are you just, as we British say, bull-shitting?


    My figures are based on facts as reported by the ACEA, who should have an accurate idea of what amount of vehicles are passing through their hands.

    Here's the full quote from their fact sheet:


    EU-UK AUTOMOTIVE TRADE


    Motor vehicles (cars, commercial vehicles, buses and coaches)


    EU27 exports to UK in 2017: 2.3 million vehicles worth about €38.4 billion

    28% of the EU global vehicle export value
    88% of the UK global vehicle import value


    UK exports to EU27 in 2017: 804,332 vehicles worth about €14.5 billion
    40% of the UK global vehicle export value
    30% of the EU global vehicle import value


    Got it?:D

  • With these EU car manufactures recalling their expensive cars, VW and Daimler for installing computer programs to cheat emission test, Germany recalling 238,000 Mercedes and 774,000 diesel vehicles accross Europe, the U.K. has lost confidence in the European car market now. We will buy jap cars silly, they will be even cheaper to “us” new UK partners. The big players of the world would like nothing more than to squash any EU competition given the chance. Why would we be foolish and pay for European cars if they refuse to offer the buying UK public a better deal, just because they have had their nose and profits put out? You really should just get that passport orys. Your just trying to convince yourself you have nothing to loose here. You probably haven’t, if you’ve never had it. I’ve owned plenty of jap motors. Never own what your not happy with. Be that on price, build quality or trust.


    In my opinion Brexit is the best thing that can happen for this country, deal or no deal. If for no other reason than to control borders and future unsustainable immigration, slow and stop radicalisation on UK soil. Reclaim free speech without fear of being called racist. Those EU leaders are sitting pretty. They have it made. They want to retire ten years early on vastly inflated pensions, why would they want you to know the truth, they need to bullshit you for a bit longer and spin is their method of choice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Europe - BAAAD, UK - Greaaat.

    You said so before.


    I still can't see the answer as why Japanese would want to have factory in Britain, if they can locate it in the EU and have instant access to the market that is several times bigger? Especially that EU is just finalising trade deal with Japan?

    I quoted Toyota spokesperson to you before, you have choosen to ignore it, as it is against your beliefs.

    You also constantly ignore questions I am asking, so let forget about them, and look closer at your case study of Britain ditching European cars altogether and switching to Japanese ones instead.

    I guess you don't just want to import them from Japan, as you want them to be made by Britons, providing well paid jobs for British citizens, so they can thrive in the Golden Era of British Economy that will happen after Britain breaks free from European opressor. But what about practicalities?

    Let's say no-deal Brexit happens in 9 months from now. How those new Toyotas are going to be made in Britain when they rely greatly on parts coming from another European countries? (British-assembled cars are, on average, only in 44% made of British parts and components (source))

    I know in ideal rose tinted glasses world, you would just start making all the parts here, or import them from your new, better, trade partners. But let's be serious for a second: it won't happen overnight. You need something for the transition period. Which can last several years, as production of car component is not exactly choping the firewood, bagging it and delivering to your gas station.

    So tell me, have you (or actually any Brexiteer) thought, how the sudden introduction of strict border control, customs and everything will impact the supply chain for British auto manufacturers? Where all those lorries coming from Europe by Dover ferries will clear customs? Will that be in that tiny old building in Dover? Or on this small custom place a couple junctions down the M20? How long it will take for Britain to build their own factories of the component needed to make those cars? Or are you going to import them from elsewhere? Is there a factory anywhere in the world, that has free production capabilities ready to meet British demand for such components until Britain will start building them on its own?


    (and yes, I drive Japanese cars for some time now. First one was done in Newcastle, but now I have one made in actual Japan).

  • My figures are taken from last year, 2017, from the European Automobile Manufacturers Association.

    Where do your figures come from? What 800 cars are you talking about?

    Are you just, as we British say, bull-shitting?

    No. We simply, as you British say, made a mistake. It should obviously say 800 000, as I was directly answering to your post, partially quoted just above this fragment.

    I fail to see how you could not realize this obvious, irrelevant mistake. But then I remembered you fail to realize things of much greater importance.

    So yes, of course, it is 800 000 as you said (I trust you on that, was too lazy to double check your sources, as have no reason to doubt you here).


    Got it. You failed to provide source, but I found it here: http://www.acea.be/uploads/pub…it-facts_figures_2018.pdf

    This quote is a bit unclear to me, as in 2017 EU was still in the UK, so I fail to see how EU exports to UK can be counted as "global". Unless "global" in this document means "total". But I would rather think those numbers are put next to each other for comparision. So I followed that path and came here: http://www.acea.be/statistics/…e-uk-and-main-eu-partners

    This is much more detailed information. And what we read here?

    "80% of the UK’s car production is exported, of which 54% goes to EU member states."

    and then, below:

    "The other way around, the EU countries represent 82% of the UK’s motor vehicle import volume, worth €38 billion. The 27 other EU member states (EU27) produced 19.69 million motor vehicles in 2017 and exported 2.3 million (11.7%) of these to the United Kingdom."

    So roughly what I estimated: around 10%.

    So, let's read it again, slowly:

    When no-deal Brexit happens, EU car manufacturers loose one tenth of their market overnight. In the same time, Britain looses MORE THAN A HALF of it's current market.

    But that's OK, as the cars manufactured in Britain are made only in 44% of British parts. So you could say that numbers add up: Brexit stops 56% procent of car parts coming in, and 54% of ready made cars coming out. So you can still produce your 45% of cars from the parts you make here, and nothing changes for you.


    ...except it is not so easy. Do I have to explain why? :) :) :)


  • You said it yourself, Japan would welcome a trade deal with the EU. The EU would love to sell japan much needed car parts, that the EU need to make to sell to anyone, just to support their economies. Japan buys the parts from Europe. They have them sent to the UK factories that they plan to have Jap cars built in. or are you sugesting EU car parts factories will be big enough to leverage the Japanese trade deal against the UK. Remember Brexit? World trade?

    orys, Im sorry to have to bow down to your dogged determination to find fault with the UK and it’s Citizens wishes. Maybe it’s best if you close the door on your way out and focus on Your own future.

    I’ve more important things to do than to keep you here entertaining me. Now if you had been passionate about staying in this wonderful county that has hosted you these last 5 years. I would take the trouble to ease your fears, about black market sausage and chips etc. I don’t smoke but I still have some Spanish duty free I could ease your way, but you have (no intention of staying in the UK or So you say!) or wishing us, the UK and the EU luck. :wall:

  • EU charges 10% import duty on cars from outside the EU. So why is not in our interest to be able to charge Germany 10% on their Mercedes, BMW, VW, Skoda, and Seats once we leave??


    Also the figures quoted above were for cars, once you include trucks as well you will see the figures are massively skewed regarding how much we sell the EU compared to how much they sell us.


    A free market only benefits the seller country, it disadvantages the buyer country because it cannot charge import duty.


    It is the big myth that free trade within the EU benefits everybody, it doesn't. It just means that the richer and more industrialised countries get even richer because they have unrestricted access to a bigger market.



  • So should the House of Lords Block Brexit?


    The arrogance goes MANY ways I am affraid, forget Cameron, even the EUrocrats when they didn't take the prospect of a UK refendum seriously, or the majority that voted for Leave in the UK - we in the UK are still afterall are democracy, generations have willfully or otherwise been part of the system that allowed us to get us to here. :-)


    Arrogance (and denial) at a level where they really should be accountable is still in evidence in the EU, and as such this will not imvho end well. Is it only me or does this kind of thing goe to the heart of the matter, the official EU site for "convergence" (Maastricht Treaty) still uses this kind of EU rhetoric ....


    "EU Member States currently outside the euro area


    At present, there are 9 EU Member States that do not participate in the euro area - Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden and the United Kingdom. Denmark and the United Kingdom have negotiated opt-out arrangements and will therefore not be the subject of a convergence assessment until they request it."


    (my highlights see the original at https://ec.europa.eu/info/busi…tly-outside-the-euro-area )


    Currently and Until ?!? Until what?


    - The "correct" answer is given to an awkward question?

    - The house of lords blocks Brexit and this is such a massive screw up we roll over?

    - (my preferred choice) hell freezes over!


    Looking at the even bigger picture.


    I think MUCH is being lost in the debate about the potential impact of a nonfrictionless exit going forward.


    The EU, especially Germany and Netherlands rely on keeping up the intra-state trade bias-effect provided to them by the EU, the French seem to be depserate for something to take them out of their mess ......


    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/s…U_exports_of_goods%29.png


    So how are all the other member states paying for all this? (clue they aren't, yet, the deficit is building up in the ECB, between the member states and guess who is the major beneficiary of this debt, IF things don't go bang!)


    ....and then look at the following.


    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/s…016_%28EUR_billion%29.png


    If that isn't stark enough, then take a look at this historically:


    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/s…016_%28EUR_billion%29.png


    Comparatvivley trading WITHIN the EU framework doesn't appear to be doing much good for the UK, or the trading partner most exposed to the UK based on these EU stats. (i.e.Ireland and if it wasn't with the UK?).


    So we've had a vote and we will now leave, it is not an easy decision to deliver. We all, not just in the UK need to be aware of any number of HUMAN BIAS - I'll suggest a few traits of the top of my head "Status Quo" (not of the Riock Parfit variety) "Loss Aversion", and espescially "ANCHORING".


    (If you want to read up on this Nobel Prize winning stuff look up the Prospect Theory).


    There is MASSIVE system risk should even one of the EURO states fail, and despite it looking like a ponzy scheme, the risk is NOT the EU's alone even once the UK has left and as such we all need to build a NEW bridge, and get over it..


    Should the House of Lords TRY to block Block Brexit? Maybe we should have joined in with the rest of Europe when they were told to eat cake...



    AIMHO DYOR etc.


    TW (ps not a russian bot!)

  • So, let's read it again, slowly:

    Afternoon Orys, I am not going to take issue with the figures, I get where you are coming from. However the SMMT have produced their own version, it may be a little clearer even if it is from a National trade organisation of a globalised industry that is slow to adapt.


    On that subject for a moment WHY ARE WE BUILDING SO MANY "ENGINES" in the UK? Where is the investment / reference to ELECTRIC MOTORS! ... and as for "Defeat devices"... I remember a discussion at work for an electonics design services company about how the ECU changes mode depending where it thougth it was in c2004 when talking about testing fuel efficiency!


    Orys, I trust that sense is on the side of those overseeing this (back to Bexit), and have to trust the view you paint on future trade is not representative of that of the EUrocrats, else the EU may well go all Trump on us / embargo the UK.


    Unless that happens then trade won't simply "stop", just change, and change it will - And very much for the worse if a legitimate referendum result is discounted and the referndum is "dismissed" as has been the norm in the EU when it doesn't go to "the plan".


    What that manner of change that follows from this point to Brexit and beyond is Very, VERY important:


    To quote a certain letter from the 1930's..... " “bitterness” engendered by protectionist trade barriers is not conducive to world peace"


    Let's hope that everyone works together and builds that new bridge, otherwise there could be significant issues for everyone.


    At a time when we are most likely on the verge of a new epoch (Anthropocene), then the EU (and eve the great british establishment) as far as world politics, economics, environment and "peoples" are concerned need to wise up. They need to be able to reform but show little or NO sign of it, BOTH sides of the channel.


    Pity is they don't appear able to listen, to learn, or adapt and like any "Civilisation" once that happens....


    Maybe one of these will make things better :insane:

    TW







  • Orys, you are deliberately trying to cloud the issue, by not seeing the following, and by trying to ignore it:

    EU27 exports to UK in 2017: 2.3 million vehicles worth about €38.4 billion

    28% of the EU global vehicle export value

    28% of the EU global export value.

    Global can mean world-wide exports. It can also mean overall exports.

    For our purposes, it comes to the same thing:

    EU27 exports to UK in 2017: 2.3 million vehicles worth about 38.4 billion euros. This is 28% of the EU global vehicle export value.

    So if that suddenly stopped - it won't of course - the EU would lose 28% of it's total global export market.


    You can't argue with that, old chap, it's there in black and white, in the ACEA document. So although you try to argue around it, and cloud the issue, it won't work.


    Actually, I don't really think you are a Polish lorry driver, but rather some kind of neo-liberal pro-marketeer who has plenty of time on his hands to write at great length on the EU, and is scared of losing it.


    Well, let me reassure you that we are unlikely to be 'losing' it. I think it is highly likely that we will be firmly in its clutches for many years to come. Due mainly to the majority of those in charge of both of our main political parties wanting to stay firmly ensconced, for a variety of reasons, financial or otherwise.

    The more I see of the current state of parliament concerning the Brexit issue, the more I am convinced that the EU will not let us go, because being the wealthiest country in the EU, and therefore one of its biggest markets, we are one of the biggest troughs that the rest of the EU feeds from.


    So to me it looks, increasingly, that we will find ourselves in the Hotel California situation, especially the last verse:


    Last thing we remember

    We were running for the door

    We had to find the Brexit back to the place we were before

    "Relax," said the Juncker man

    "We are programmed to receive

    You can check-out any time you like

    But you can never leave!"


    :D:reddevil::D:reddevil:

  • No just pick up your bag and walk, the EU is sinking ship, time to get going, others will follow.

    There will be many on here that can identify with the simplicity of just taking a hike when we have had enough

  • As a non brexiteer....I feel compelled to express that I am currently reasonably convinced that the pm is willing to go all the way through the negotiations and realise a 'no deal' brexit.


    I don't like aspects of a government bill that would attempt to eschew higher courts from judging on human rights issues but that might be necessary in order to close the borders that brexiteers have voted be closed.


    Is it just posturing or is this government really willing to respect the referendum result and deliver a hard brexit?


    Of course governments could simply have built sufficient accomodation to house everyone comfortably but regardless of this much disputed territory is hard brexit about to happen?

  • I don't like aspects of a government bill that would attempt to eschew higher courts from judging on human rights

    After mentioning the Hitchcock quote today I was sent an article that is germain ;-)


    "

    The point is that, if Magna Carta is to mean anything today, right or justice must not be unfairly denied to anyone.

    I cannot resist adding that, as well as being the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, the 250th anniversary of Entick v Carrington, and the 750th anniversary of the de Montfort Parliament, this is also the 15th anniversary of the coming into force of the Human Rights Act, which has reinforced the great ideas of Magna Carta in many ways, and we all hope and expect that those great ideas will be at the forefront of any proposals for reform. So, I ask again, did that brave Hungarian peasant girl die in vain? I think not. The pledges which she made King John ‘sign’ remain the basic principles of our Constitution today. But we all have to be alert to maintain those principles in the face of the very different risks and complexities of the modern world."


    Lady Hale - Deputy President of The Supreme Court in June 2013, succeeding Lord Hope of Craighead.

    http://newjurist.com/magna-carta-did-she-die-in-vein.html


    Modern world anyone?

    Hopefully it goes some way to make you think better of our breaking away from a legislative based on napoleonic rather than anglo saxon base. It is not so much the rules, but the WAY they are interpreted and applied.


    The AngloSaxon way.


    TimeWas


    edited because of the cat!

  • You said it yourself, Japan would welcome a trade deal with the EU. The EU would love to sell japan much needed car parts, that the EU need to make to sell to anyone, just to support their economies. Japan buys the parts from Europe. They have them sent to the UK factories that they plan to have Jap cars built in.

    Ah, so if I understand you, the plan is that Europe will sell Japan their parts, and then Japan will sell those parts to Britain.

    So the same parts that Britain can have now, tariff free and without any hassle, will be imported here using the middle man and at greatest cost.

    Well, sounds like a plan indeed, who am I to trying to find fault in that logic :)


    Quote

    or are you sugesting EU car parts factories will be big enough to leverage the Japanese trade deal against the UK. Remember Brexit? World trade?

    orys, Im sorry to have to bow down to your dogged determination to find fault with the UK and it’s Citizens wishes.

    The thing is, hard Brexit is hardly a wish of majority of British citizens, not to mention Scots, where I live. While I can see arguments for those who are against Brexit, I hoped to get some arguments from you guys as well.

    But I think that this is indeed a futile attempt, as if someone has rose tinted glasses here, it's not me. And you deliberately ignore all my questions about practicalities, instead blabbering about "prospect of golden future" and rebuking me for that I dare to question your belief that Britain is so great, that everything will be brilliant, so there is no need to look closer at how it is actually going to happen...


    Quote

    Maybe it’s best if you close the door on your way out and focus on Your own future.

    I’ve more important things to do than to keep you here entertaining me. Now if you had been passionate about staying in this wonderful county that has hosted you these last 5 years. I would take the trouble to ease your fears, about black market sausage and chips etc. I don’t smoke but I still have some Spanish duty free I could ease your way, but you have (no intention of staying in the UK or So you say!) or wishing us, the UK and the EU luck. :wall:

    ...and there we are back to ad hominem :)


    EU charges 10% import duty on cars from outside the EU. So why is not in our interest to be able to charge Germany 10% on their Mercedes, BMW, VW, Skoda, and Seats once we leave??

    Well, for the reason I explained before: because you sell them much higher percentage of your production, than they sell you. For them one in ten cars goes to the UK. For you it's more than half. So if you put tariffs on their cars, they can raise it's price by 1% across the whole range of production and offset it, and still be able to sell their BMW, Skodas and Mercedes in here at the same price.


    If your cars will be taxed 10% on entry to the EU, it would be much harder for you to keep them at competetive price. So your share on the European market will be taken away by BMW, Skoda and Mercedes, so they will be selling more cars inside the EU, and so for them your market will become even less important.

    Meanwhile you'll have to find the new market for your cars somewhere. And Britain's cost of manufacture are pretty high compared to most of the world. So i doubt you will be able to sell much to China or India...


    Quote

    Also the figures quoted above were for cars, once you include trucks as well you will see the figures are massively skewed regarding how much we sell the EU compared to how much they sell us.

    You mean, that for Trucks Britain produces next to none (there is DAF asembly plant somwhere in old Leyland factory, that assembles DAF LF cabs IIRC. There is also some small assembly plant for Isuzu. And then there is Alexander Dennis. Foden, ERF, Seddon Atkinson, AEC, Leyland, Albion, Scammel, you name it - it's all dead. Former Bedford factory makes small vans. LDV moved production to China (and the Maxus van was designed in Poland anyway).

    So yes, you have to import nearly all of your trucks. And you import them from Europe mostly. And you need trucks.

    So if you impose 10% price on European made trucks, your hauliers would have to pay 10% extra for their trucks. If you don't impose 10% on them, Europe will continue selling you trucks as it does now. Or you can look for different sources of vehicles for your haulage industry needs. USA and like don't really make trucks suitable for narrow roads. Russia, Belarus, Turkey - they mostly do trucks that are few years behind to tell it mildly. So it leaves you with Japan and Korea again - and shipping trucks from there won't be cheap.

    I can't see how it is going to be better for Britain.



    Quote

    It is the big myth that free trade within the EU benefits everybody, it doesn't. It just means that the richer and more industrialised countries get even richer because they have unrestricted access to a bigger market.

    And Britain is very reach country, as you pointed out earlier in this discussion. And we agree that rich countries benefit from having unrestricted access to a bigger market.


    And therefore: why Brexit? You don't want to get richer any more?

  • On that subject for a moment WHY ARE WE BUILDING SO MANY "ENGINES" in the UK? Where is the investment / reference to ELECTRIC MOTORS! ... and as for "Defeat devices"... I remember a discussion at work for an electonics design services company about how the ECU changes mode depending where it thougth it was in c2004 when talking about testing fuel efficiency!

    Well, that is a good point. But I think Nissan Leafs are made in Teeside, aren't they?


    Quote

    Orys, I trust that sense is on the side of those overseeing this (back to Bexit), and have to trust the view you paint on future trade is not representative of that of the EUrocrats, else the EU may well go all Trump on us / embargo the UK.

    Thing is that Eurocrats are actually quite happy to leave things as they are. It's Brexiteers who are shaking their swords, while at the same time expecting the things will stay the same... for them.

    To that Europe cannot agree - Brexit is not about saying "OK, Britain, you were a paying member, but from now on you are getting free ride". In any way, even in Hard Brexit case, some changes have to be made, some adaptation has to be made on both sides and so on. I am trying to establish here at first, how the Brexiteers in that thread see relations between Britain and EU after. Because, unless you are willing to stay in the common market (and access to it is not free, ask Norwegians or Swiss), there WILL be some changes. And I wanted to ask, how they propose to work those out, yet my questions about practicalities of a few random issues were completely ignored. Maybe you know the answer?

    Let say that there is a hard Brexit and from March 19 onwards Britain is no longer in the common market. My simple question is: In 2017 Dover handled 2.6 millions of trucks. That is almost five per minute. If they will need to stop and clear customs, where all of them will park? Will it be made online? Are there any preparation made? Is there any computer system worked out at the moment?

    This is not a dull question. We are 9 months from the date. To organize such a gargantual operation like clearling customs for 7000 trucks per day (plus those that come via other ports) is not exactly an overnight job.

    And those are the little things I am trying to establish here. Because if no such things are planned, then this WILL BE a disaster. Or at least "a change in trade of the apocalyptic size" if you prefer.

  • I can, I did, and I won the argument already by digging deeper than you and finding which meaning of this word we have in that case. I know that of two possible meanings, you would prefer that one, that would make the data to support your beliefs, but alas, not this time.

    I provided another set of data (from the same source BTW), from which is clear, that in that case it is the former. You apparently missed the link, so here it is again for your convienience: http://www.acea.be/statistics/…e-uk-and-main-eu-partners

    "The 27 other EU member states (EU27) produced 19.69 million motor vehicles in 2017 and exported 2.3 million (11.7%) of these to the United Kingdom.:"

    Do you really believe, that 2.3 million of 19.69 million is 28%?

    Your document just puts those two numbers (global: as in: world-wide) for comparision. If EU exported 4 cars to Russia and one to Britain, the number would be still 25%, but it would be hardly relevant if the total number of cars made in the EU is not taken into consideration.


    Quote

    Actually, I don't really think you are a Polish lorry driver, but rather some kind of neo-liberal pro-marketeer who has plenty of time on his hands to write at great length on the EU, and is scared of losing it.

    Bad guess on so many fronts :) I actually do drive lorries for three days a week (i've been in Malaig overnight, hence delay in answering) and I am actually pretty leftists. I have a lot of critics of European Union, but I simply think Brexit is like pouring the baby out with the water.



    Quote

    Well, let me reassure you that we are unlikely to be 'losing' it. I

    I wouid be much more reasured if you were actually able to answer any of those questions I asked about how do you see relations between EU and UK after Brexit, and what practicalities of such relations would be. But perhaps I just expect too much?


    Orys, in this country we make ALL the Euro diesel engines for Peugeot, Citroen VW and Ford at Dagenham. We are not going to lose that business. You don't realise



    "We are not going to lose that business" - as they would say on Wikipedia - Citation needed. As from what I know, the truth is completely opposite:

    There are long going rumours about Dagenham factory being closed after Brexit. https://www.independent.co.uk/…fter-brexit-a7162561.html

    You might say "it is just scaremongering by Independent" or something.

    But if you dig deeper, then the things looks less pink:

    Production of Diesel engines for Ford and PSA is at the moment mostly shared between factory in Dagenham and in Tremery in France. (Btw: guess which of this factory is now being prepared to manufacture electric engines: British or French?).

    But there will be new ones: Few years back PSA acquired a diesel engine factory in Tychy, Poland. They closed production there, moved some opeations to England and were about to sell it. And then Brexit happened. And you know what? The factory is going to be up and running again by next year. They are starting with making engines for their factories in nearby Slovakia (source in Polish, sorry and some mention in English article). Petrol - for now. But this is a long established diesel engine factory (they were making diesel engine for Isuzu asembled in Britain, before production of those moved to Dagenham. But you know, it has been moved once, it can always be moved back again, and this is why they changed their mind about selling that Polish factory). There will be some new engines coming out from Szentgotthárd (Hungary) from 2019 onwards as well.

    As for VW - you are wrong again. Infamous Volkswagen 1.9 and 2.0 diesel engines are made in Polkowice and in 2017 (what a coincidence!) it has been decided that the production of new generation of diesel engines will be located here (source, in Polish again).

    Those are two examples I remember, as I monitor closely industry news from Poland. But there is 26 other EU countries, I guess Poland is not unique in getting new investments recently.

  • Any new automotive investments in Britain recently?

    Yes Toyota, announced in Feb and confirmed only this week in fact


    https://www.ft.com/content/b17…5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936


    Why should we care if Mercedes is opening an engine plant in Poland? The only people who should care about that are the workers at Mercedes factory in Stuttgart who will presumably be the losers.


    Moving jobs from one part of the EU to a lower paid country does not increase the size of the cake, that's just capitalists exploiting cheap labour.


    We had the same happen to us with Cadburys.


    Orys you are beating and old drum and I don't think anyone on here is really interested that much. Foreign investment in Britain has grown since the Brexit vote because investors realise that once we are free of EU constrains we can do what we like, charge what we like and we will.


    That scares the EU because we can do so much more as free agents


    The EU is a millstone around our neck, it holds us back

  • I provided another set of data (from the same source BTW), from which is clear, that in that case it is the former. You apparently missed the link, so here it is again for your convienience: http://www.acea.be/statistics/…e-uk-and-main-eu-partners

    Orys, you are again trying to cloud the issue. You are deliberately talking about number of vehicles in order to cloud the issue of value.

    Nowhere on the web page you link to does it mention value comparisons.


    If the EU has a total vehicle export value of €138,563 million, and if the EU exports to the UK vehicles worth a value of about €38.4 million, is that not approx. 28%?


    Is not €38.4 million 28% of €138,563 million? Slightly more, if anything!

  • Yes Toyota, announced in Feb and confirmed only this week in fact


    https://www.ft.com/content/b17…5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936

    yes, we spoke about it. Toyota will manufacture the oncoming model in its existing British factories. Since those decission are not taken overnight, preparation to this were coming for at least couple of years. So Toyota now confirmed, that despite Brexit they will still produce cars "for the lifetime of the model" in here. I quoted the Toyota guy before, but you obviously ignored it, so here you have it again:


    "Dr Johan van Zyl, president of Toyota Europe, said: "Today's announcement that we will manufacture the new Auris at Burnaston, with most engines to be supplied from Deeside, shows our confidence in the skills and capabilities of our Toyota UK members."


    However, he added: "As a company, we are doing what we can to secure the competitiveness of our UK operations as a leading manufacturing centre for our European business.

    "With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success."

    I stressed out the important bits.

    At the same time, after Brexit referendum Toyota decided to invest in Poland - not only their existing factory in Wałbrzych is to be expanded, but next year they are opening a brand new factory in Jelcz Laskowice.


    Quote

    Orys you are beating and old drum and I don't think anyone on here is really interested that much. Foreign investment in Britain has grown since the Brexit vote because investors realise that once we are free of EU constrains we can do what we like, charge what we like and we will.

    Yeah, I've noticed you are not really interested that much in facts.

    Foreign investment in Britain has grown since the Brexit vote - no wonder, as you are still in the EU, and yet the pound got significantly cheaper already, helping your exports. So they are willing to make the most of it. If you look closer, you'll see that many major take overs took place as well - which means that some companies are already pulling out. Prognosis for after the real Brexit happens though do not look so pinky.


    Quote


    That scares the EU because we can do so much more as free agents

    And what exactly you can do as free agents without access to their market that they are so scared about? :)

    You're right, my bad. I looked at numbers, not at value. My point remains valid, though: for EU exports to UK are smaller, than exports to EU are for UK.

    Moreover, this value of 38.4 bn of ready made cars sold to the EU has to be offset by 11.4 bn worth of parts that Britain has to import from the EU in the first place in order to make those cars. Which, of course, will also be a loss to the EU if they loose those exports, but still it will harm Britain more. As British cars are produced mostly from EU parts, while only 14% of EU parts exports go to Britain. Their automotive industry can survive without selling you those parts. You will struggle.

    * * *

    Ok, so we played analytics of the automotive market. That was fun. Now, anyone fancy answering my few simple questions about practical solutions for everyday problems caused by Brexit, that is set to happen in 9 months?

  • What were those everyday problems, by the way?

    No French cheese?

    No German ryebread?

    No Italian wine?

    Well, they might be more expensive or hard to import, but I am sure you have plenty of trade partners from allover the world queuing to deliver French cheese to you to fill the gap :)

    But I've been asking about things like "where all the lorries coming into the UK are going to clear their customs after crossing the channel from abroad"? I am pretty sure you saw that question in that discussion, as I asked it at least twice, you just trying to ridicule me asking question by placing some absurd ones, as you have no answer to this one.

  • Well, they might be more expensive or hard to import, but I am sure you have plenty of trade partners from allover the world queuing to deliver French cheese to you to fill the gap :)

    But I've been asking about things like "where all the lorries coming into the UK are going to clear their customs after crossing the channel from abroad"? I am pretty sure you saw that question in that discussion, as I asked it at least twice, you just trying to ridicule me asking question by placing some absurd ones, as you have no answer to this one.

    How are foreign lorries coming into UK of any interest to us? Its not our problem, its theirs

  • Are you sure they'll be crossing the channel, Orys?


    Aren't these EU chaps going to stop them coming through, or load some huge tax on them, so they won't be coming from across the continent?


    Surely they'll be coming across from the auld country now, from Ireland?