House of Lords blocks Brexit

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  • It does when they are coming here through EU countries that are doing nothing to stop them or screen them , in fact they are helping them to move through as quickly as possible.

    But even if this was true then, as I pointed before, Brexit will change nothing. Or actually it will make things worse. Because after Brexit you will have absolutely no influence on migration policy of the EU. And you will still have the same border in France (as currently you are not in Schengen either).




    If you live in Scotland you will not be paying tuition fees

    ...nor you will receive a diploma recognized in other countries (if "no deal Brexit" indeed will happen).

  • They are supposed to be negotiating from a position of strength


    And that position of strenght would be based on what strenght exactly? What are the strenght of a single country, of whom everyone was annoyed already with it constant demands of discounts and exemptions, against 27 countries that are Better Together, have significant political power as a team and are de facto one of the biggest markets on this planet?

  • One of Britain's great strengths is that it is the wealthiest country in Europe, even wealthier than Germany, and about the 4th wealthiest in the world. You don't have to take my word for it: http://www.visualcapitalist.co…t-countries-in-the-world/


    In a capitalist world, money talks, and he who can pay the piper calls the tune.

    But Germany, which runs the EU, doesn't like us trying to call the tune. As always in the last 100 years or so, they strive for Deutschland Uber Alles, but now, after two nasty wars, they have learned to do so financially, because they failed militarily. (Even today, this martial song, the Deutschlandlied, is their national anthem!)


    When we leave - if we are allowed to leave by the financiers who control Europe - the EU will lose it's wealthiest partner. No wonder they don't want us to leave, and intend to make it as difficult as possible!


    Along with Germany and France, Britain has been bolstering up all the little hard-up countries that have recently entered the EU, (The real reason for them being allowed entry was a) Cheap labour; and b) Expansion of markets; and c) Eventual control of those countries by a European Federation, run by none other than Germany).


    Without Britain, the EU becomes very suddenly more than 33% poorer, and the few remaining countries that owe it no debts will have a hard time trying to finance the poorer ones and hold it together.

  • ...nor you will receive a diploma recognized in other countries (if "no deal Brexit" indeed will happen).


    Orys, you really have been suckered in haven’t you. There’s thousands just like yourself making stuff up (usually negative) it’s almost like we are dragging you up the boarding ramp and your nails are digging into the paintwork. Let go lad. You know it’s over. Thing is there’s a long line of folk cueing up at all the EU borders in front of you and those custom officials can nolonger tell if your one of the good guys or a bad’en, thing is most of them cueing have more appropriate documentation and valid Uni degrees than yourself. So your really left catching up, unless your partner can put in a good word for you. It’s not like there’s a shortage of Labourers and truck drivers in the world. Let’s hope it’s who you know and not what you know.

  • Without Britain, the EU becomes very suddenly more than 33% poorer, and the few remaining countries that owe it no debts will have a hard time trying to finance the poorer ones and hold it together.

    It's private wealth. That includes for example an aristocrat, who owns a lot of land in Britain that is bloody expensive. It hardly translates in more important factors like GDP for example (because the fact, that he gets up in the morning in his expensive mansion and goes in his bloody expensive vintage Bentley there to shoot some deer if he happen to not be going to his yacht on a helicopter is, in fact, mostly irrelevant for the economy). Just as the fact, that Britain also has the poorest areas in this part of Europe is as well.

    So I won't even check if it's true that 33% of European wealth is located in Britain (as we would have to go deeper - does wealth of all of those Russian oligarch who are residents of Britain counts in or not etc.).

    Let's look at GDP instead. This is a bit more relevant factor to the economy. Here, Britain is responsible for about 1.7 of EU GDP. But 10 years ago it was responsible for 1/6. So in fact Britain still sits at about 2.3 bn Euro, while the whole of the EU went up from 13 bn to 15 bn. (source). So basically in last decade EU grew by more than Britain's total. So if Britain leaves, it will be a set back for Europe, but hardly a tragedy - as you might remember, EU was doing pretty well ten years ago. And you have remember that 10 years ago those poor countries really needed help. Today they are doing pretty well, Poland for example was the only country that managed to get through financial crisis and remain in the green for all this time. WIth the new European budget being agreed at the moment, the Eastern European countries are actually having a significant cut in their EU funding - because they can simply manage without them.

    So the bottom line is: EU-minus-Britain today will have roughly the same GDP as EU with Britian had 10 years ago... And it will no longer have to pump money into those poor countries (although they will propably need to help out others, like Italy or Greece).

    So, again. Where is that "position of strenght coming"? Personal wealth of some milionairs (who are often settled in Britain as it is easy for them to use tax havens that are British dependencies) is not relevant. British economy is not that important for the EU. The trade situation looks that while the EU country that trades most with Britain relies on that in, like 11% percent, for Britain EU is about half of it's trade, which puts it at the start in the weakest position. In politics, EU speaks the voice of 27 countries, Britain will be alone (and not even united as such - Nicola Sturgeon makes it very clear at every occassion, that British government does not have mandate to speak on behalf of everyone here). So what is that strenght you have, apart from firm belief, that you are unique, exceptional and strong?


    Orys, you really have been suckered in haven’t you. There’s thousands just like yourself making stuff up (usually negative) it’s almost like we are dragging you up the boarding ramp and your nails are digging into the paintwork. Let go lad. You know it’s over. Thing is there’s a long line of folk cueing up at all the EU borders in front of you and those custom officials can nolonger tell if your one of the good guys or a bad’en, thing is most of them cueing have more appropriate documentation and valid Uni degrees than yourself. So your really left catching up, unless your partner can put in a good word for you. It’s not like there’s a shortage of Labourers and truck drivers in the world. Let’s hope it’s who you know and not what you know.

    What I am making up? That the British diplomas might not be recognized in Europe, as they are currently recognized under EU treaties and if no-deal Brexit happens, there will be no EU treaties that will be still valid for Britain?

    Well, Brexit means Brexit, and no-deal Brexit means exactly that: no-deal Brexit. No EU treaties, no common market, no common education policy, driving licenses respected on the basis of 1968 Vienna Convention and/or mutual treaties with certain countries again etc etc etc etc. I am not scaremongering, I am just telling how it is. The cookie, eating it or having it, not both, remember?

    As for rest of the post: you are right. It is clear, that it is over. You've apparently run out of arguments and turned to ad hominem :)

  • I haven’t run out of arguments orys. It’s not my calling! I’ve spent a lifetime fighting the government with my boots on the ground. Now it’s near time for building and negativity will only tarnish the vision. I/we got what we asked for, want and need. The rest is history in the making. Like the Berlin Wall. The EU was a means to a end. We were sold on the Common market. It manifest into what we are now leaving and the EU may or may not have plans to become a bigger entity with its own army to use against its patriots in the future, when the uprising happens. Be safe, take off those rose coloured specs, and see it black and white. None of the remaining 27 EU Countries can accomadate uncontrolled immigration and radical Islam supporters will force closed borders. The EU’s reluctance to abolish free movement will be its downfall.

  • Like many of us on this forum, I can’t remember what the world is like without being a member of the European Union. My father’s view was that it may make “war” unthinkable between neighbouring countries. By creating a common market to control production of both steel and coal, the main ingredients of any war machine after a disgruntled nation. To that end it succeeded.

    Now our enemies are individuals and small extremist groups and our approach to defending our “freedom” our right to live peacefully, is to take back control of our borders and our laws need to suit our purpose.


    Regarding trade, we have a proven track record of global trade. Let those who trust us share in our prosperity.


    Leaving the EU is both frightening and exciting, make no bones about it. We will survive, we will prosper. We can make the UK a safe, enriching Country to raise our children in.

  • A safe, enriching country to raise children would need to do quite a lot more than use population growth to inflate the value of landholdings.


    It's all very interesting that a minor majority voted in favour of brexit but it's quite frustrating that few want to look at the actual issues surrounding home grown profiteering based on the economic enslavement of the 'children'.


    Japan springs to mind as a powerful G7 little, island nation that trades well in the international community......massive debt....terrible long hours work culture and huge competitive stress burdened by its enslaved children.

  • Like many of us on this forum, I can’t remember what the world is like without being a member of the European Union. My father’s view was that it may make “war” unthinkable between neighbouring countries. By creating a common market to control production of both steel and coal, the main ingredients of any war machine after a disgruntled nation. To that end it succeeded.

    Now our enemies are individuals and small extremist groups and our approach to defending our “freedom” our right to live peacefully, is to take back control of our borders and our laws need to suit our purpose.


    Regarding trade, we have a proven track record of global trade. Let those who trust us share in our prosperity.


    Leaving the EU is both frightening and exciting, make no bones about it. We will survive, we will prosper. We can make the UK a safe, enriching Country to raise our children in.

  • I haven’t run out of arguments orys. It’s not my calling!

    Then where is that ad hominem coming from?


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    I’ve spent a lifetime fighting the government with my boots on the ground. Now it’s near time for building and negativity will only tarnish the vision. I/we got what we asked for, want and need. The rest is history in the making. Like the Berlin Wall. The EU was a means to a end. We were sold on the Common market. It manifest into what we are now leaving and the EU may or may not have plans to become a bigger entity with its own army to use against its patriots in the future, when the uprising happens. Be safe, take off those rose coloured specs, and see it black and white. None of the remaining 27 EU Countries can accomadate uncontrolled immigration and radical Islam supporters will force closed borders. The EU’s reluctance to abolish free movement will be its downfall.

    It's funny how those arguments are perfectly in-line with Russian propaganda. Knowing how they work, I can now see that there might be something in that claim, that Brexit happened due to Russians being able to convince Britons to believe in that rubbish.

    Like many of us on this forum, I can’t remember what the world is like without being a member of the European Union.

    Like a very few here, I actually can remember very well what does it mens to be outside it :) So perhaps it's you who have rose tinted glasses and believe that the grass is greener on the other side, not me, who've been on the both side of the fence already?


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    My father’s view was that it may make “war” unthinkable between neighbouring countries. By creating a common market to control production of both steel and coal, the main ingredients of any war machine after a disgruntled nation. To that end it succeeded.

    So why destroy it now if it works?


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    Now our enemies are individuals and small extremist groups and our approach to defending our “freedom” our right to live peacefully, is to take back control of our borders and our laws need to suit our purpose.

    *sight*. But you know, that Britain is in charge of it's own laws and borders as it is? All European laws have to be approved by Westminster and Britain can even kick our EU citizens who are off work for 3 months or more if it pleases. It is not EU's fault that you have choosen not to use powers you have.

    And, anyway: If you don't like some European regulations, you simply don't introduce them: that's how you still use imperial measurement units, how you are not in Euro, not in Schengen etc. etc. etc.

    Of course there are some regulations you have to adhere to if you want to be a member of the common market, like technical norms, food safety etc. But then, even if you quit the EU and you will want to sell your stuff on the European market, you would still have to adhere to them, just like Norwegians or Swiss do. Except that this time you will have no say on the matter.


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    Regarding trade, we have a proven track record of global trade. Let those who trust us share in our prosperity.

    Provided there will be any left to share after you loose so much of your proven european trade...


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    Leaving the EU is both frightening and exciting, make no bones about it. We will survive, we will prosper. We can make the UK a safe, enriching Country to raise our children in.



    You will survive, of course.

    My question is: what's your plan? I am trying to get to this since the beginning of that discussion, I am hearing only empty words about British greatness and richnest, and how great it will be to free this wonderful country, who's only problem is that it's progress is smothered by that nasty Europe lead by Germans, who would only like to milk British taxpayer and feed his money to Muslim immigrants.

    But what about something concrete?

    Provided that you cannot have a cake and eat it, how do you see your further relations with your neighbors and biggest trade partner? Who will be those trade partners you will be sharing your prosperity with? And in case of no-deal Brexit, would they be able to replace your supply of, for example, tomatoes, of which most today you get from the EU? What would you do to keep automotive industry here for example, if there will be no deal Brexit and EU imposes a big tarriffs on British made cars, resulting in Britain being de facto a small market on it's own? How would you convince car manufacturers that it is better for them to keep factories open in here, with the market of 70 000 000 people, instead of somewhere in Europe, where labour is cheaper and membership of the EU gives access to the market several times that big? How your universities will attract new students, if with no-deal Brexit their diplomas will require nostrification to be accepted anywhere else in Europe?

    Those are just few example questions of very many. I haven't heard a single concrete answer to a single one. It is only about "Britain is Great, EU is bad, stupid, and they will bend backwards to give us the best deal, because we are so great, and they are not". It's hardly a plan for a future, is it?

  • I can remember the EU intervening in respect of long hours working culture and that intervention having a direct influence on the expectations of my employers.


    I also remember EU funding being directed toward further education for 17+ year olds in the UK who would otherwise have missed out on that opportunity.


    I also recall that EU grants have been directed at improving the built environment in deprived urban areas.

  • A safe, enriching country to raise children would need to do quite a lot more than use population growth to inflate the value of landholdings.


    It's all very interesting that a minor majority voted in favour of brexit but it's quite frustrating that few want to look at the actual issues surrounding home grown profiteering based on the economic enslavement of the 'children'.


    Japan springs to mind as a powerful G7 little, island nation that trades well in the international community......massive debt....terrible long hours work culture and huge competitive stress burdened by its enslaved children.

    I don’t think population growth has had any effect on the value of Land zendaze. Think about it. Most none residential Land is cheaper to buy per equal size than the living room carpet your mum last bought.

    Land prices has risen slowly over the last ten years. Before that it was pretty stagnant.


    Land price increases is probably more to do with the few who want to invest in something other than houses/banks/stocks and shares and a reflection on the prosperity of those hard working folk who chose not to spend it on other material things. The growing interest in self sufficiency wouldn’t have any real impact on land value, so it’s not been bought up to grow food.


    Now let’s consider vehicle price increase, fuel price increase. It’s all about world economics and where folk feel best to place their money. They are not making land anymore, so it is a unique investment opportunity for those who can afford to leave it longterm. With any luck, they may get planning permission and then they have played the game.


    It’s not just a few that want to look at growth profiteering based on child enslavement of children. The message has been bandied about for years, starting with fair trade products and much media coverage. Ask yourself this. Where did those clothes and gadgets you own get made? Are you one of those people who likes to pay as little as possible for your tat, your equipment, your goods, regardless of where and by who it was made?


    We can’t change everyone’s behaviour, but we can certainly change our own.

    Since I’ve been a member of this forum 10years, you “could have” worked a extra weekend here or there, not had so many pints, walked more, drive less, saved approximately a grand a year. By now you would have enough money to go in with likeminded folk to buy/own this land you talk about. But that still wouldn’t resolve your issues, because it’s not the Land ownership that’s the stumbling block, it’s what that land is allowed to be used for. If we had our way. I would have a safe place for your periodic, temporary stopping place, so would many other friends. Not only that but likeminded individuals would see it as a way for them to make money (to pay off the bank loan, used to buy the land) and they would offer you a parkup for a small fee. Therefor your life would be enriched by a simple relaxation in planning laws. After all we have more important things to spend our hard earned money on, like vehicles/homes, food, clothing (from ethical sources) recreation and leisure.

  • I can remember the EU intervening in respect of long hours working culture and that intervention having a direct influence on the expectations of my employers.


    I also remember EU funding being directed toward further education for 17+ year olds in the UK who would otherwise have missed out on that opportunity.


    I also recall that EU grants have been directed at improving the built environment in deprived urban areas.

    I’ve just found the EU making driving a tractor much more complicated and expensive in the UK.

    I can remember when folk could go to University and not be left with a huge bill to pay.


    I recall the £millions of SRB (Single Regeneration Budget) wasted or worse (not even applied for) on stupid projects that had no short term benefit, never mind longterm benefits in deprived urban areas. Oh yeh that was the Labour government and the apathy of some citizens.

  • Cool. I'm glad you've sorted all that in your head. I'll tell my mates millennials that they shouldn't be so angry about underpay and overpriced rents....just because those are the rules. Maybe your post will help them become well adjusted little slaves....

  • I’ve just found the EU making driving a tractor much more complicated and expensive in the UK.



    I can remember when folk could go to University and not be left with a huge bill to pay.

    Well, perhaps because tractors got more complicated as well. It is no longer a primitive engine on a frame with two small wheels on the front and two big ones in the back. It is an expensive piece of machinery weighing tonnes, and capable of doing 40mph in some cases... I would not want every 12-years old farmer's kid to be able to drive it on a public road.

    As per universities, is that EU thing that Britain charges tutition fees? First time I hear, I thought EU has nothing to do with it (otherwise, how other EU countries would be able to offer free education?)

  • Orys....


    Basically "Great Britain" is a relatively tolerant service economy that is attractive to English enabled economic migrants.


    Many economic migrants find life here relatively easy when compared to their home nations and don't generally give a toss about the struggles of indigenous, economically enslaved citizens.


    It's a desert nation that has been sold out to the wealthy and to economic migrants who both find great benefit in usurping the rights and attitudes of indigenous populations.


    Nothing "Great" about that.

  • Well, perhaps because tractors got more complicated as well. It is no longer a primitive engine on a frame with two small wheels on the front and two big ones in the back. It is an expensive piece of machinery weighing tonnes, and capable of doing 40mph in some cases... I would not want every 12-years old farmer's kid to be able to drive it on a public road.

    As per universities, is that EU thing that Britain charges tutition fees? First time I hear, I thought EU has nothing to do with it (otherwise, how other EU countries would be able to offer free education?)

    tractors have come along way and road speeds on many have increased to nearly 40mph. Unfortunately it was French farmers blocking off port routes that prompted this EU law. It’s hoped it will reduce haulage competition in favour of lorry drivers who see tractor units a threat to their livelihood. However a safety issue is always a concern and those rich landowning gentry you go on about, thought it OK to not object on grounds that should it put smaller UK farmers out of business then theirs always contractors waiting to shift loads.


    However my tractor was made in 1958, luckily I haven’t been penalised quite so bad due to it being a few horsepower light of the limit and although it’s got a rollbar instead of a safety cab. It’s far more primitive with drum breaks, old hydronic engineering, no power steering and by far more dangerous than any modern tractor used on the roads today. Two of my other agric vehicles have been hit though. Six weekly mechanical test (at owners cost) or limitations as to working distance. I know, I know, I shouldn’t own land, therefore I wouldn’t need agricultural machines and save a grand on tractor insurance and tax a year. You have a point.

    I could own two houses one nearer the land that would save me some time and what’s money anyway. We all have to pay one way or another don’t we?



    No I didn’t say owt about blaming the EU for tuition fees, though plenty EU students once came here to study. Shame they leave once they are trained/qualified, worked for cash in fast food joints and contributed little else but turning cogs. I was reminiscing about what used to be and things I wouldn’t want to see no matter who pulled the strings, tuition fees for our kids!

    When my first daughter told me she may need ten grand to go to uni. I really thought the land would have to go to pay for it. But where there’s a will there’s a alternative.

  • Orys...



    I don't give a shit. Just offering up one explanation.


    I think the supposition was that the lord's et Al want to scupper brexit because open borders with the EU help sustain an economy that does not require relatively expensive investment in encouraging/training UK citizens to do the jobs....the inflationary pressure on property also appeals to the 'haves'.

  • tractors have come along way and road speeds on many have increased to nearly 40mph. Unfortunately it was French farmers blocking off port routes that prompted this EU law. It’s hoped it will reduce haulage competition in favour of lorry drivers who see tractor units a threat to their livelihood.

    Ah, this is what you are talking about. This is actually mostly British problem, haven't seen much of that in Europe - tractors pulling low loader trailers, hauling heavy machinery and whatnot. This is obviously an unfair competition to the haulage industry, as those farmers don't have to be in possession of operator's licence, they have no tacho and they can run on red diesel. From what I read on some trucking forums years back Britain was actually one of the countries that was pushing for that the most.


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    No I didn’t say owt about blaming the EU for tuition fees, though plenty EU students once came here to study. Shame they leave once they are trained/qualified, worked for cash in fast food joints and contributed little else but turning cogs.

    Actually, if they came here to study, they had to pay their tuition fees, even in Scotland. Unless they lived here for a few years prior to this, paying taxes and so on.

    You are right, that some of them just came here, studied, and then left. But you forgot about all those EU trained people who came here to work - doctors, nurses, engineers. In that case you gained well educated people willing to fill your staff shortages and someone else paid for their education.


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    I was reminiscing about what used to be and things I wouldn’t want to see no matter who pulled the strings, tuition fees for our kids!

    When my first daughter told me she may need ten grand to go to uni. I really thought the land would have to go to pay for it. But where there’s a will there’s a alternative.

    If she was an EU citizen, she could go and study in another EU country where universities are free. Finland for example. Or Poland even. :)

    * * *

    It's all nice, we can keep talking about how great things used to be in those mythical times before the EU that you yourself admitted you don't even remember. But so far you failed to answer any of my questions about practicalities of Brexit:

    - what would you like relations between EU and UK look like (after we established that it won't be possible for UK to have free ride without any commitments).
    - how would you like for UK government to use that "position of strenght" in the negotiation.
    - which countries are going to fill in your international trade reduction after/if you leave common european market and do you have infrastructure to cater for the logistic requirements of such shift?
    - in case of no Brexit, how do you want to help poor people tackle the inevitable (at least in the beginning) hike in prices of everyday commodites


    etc. etc. etc.

    Stop telling me how great Britain is, and how greater it will be out of EU. Give me some meat. I honestly would like to see what are Brexiter's plans and expectations, yet I so far failed to find one who would be able to give me any actual options and plans.

  • Well orys we will not be facing the constant onslaught of economic migrants or those seeking residence here in the UK for what ever reason other than genuine permitted access for work /education or visiting relatives. Unlike most of the other vunerable EU countries, I’m not even sure EU Countries will tolerate any more immigrants themselves but the very blessed. Looks like Spain will be the last frontier for the hopefuls. Every other day now we hear of EU countries refusing to take in any more immigrants/refugees or pledges to curb, all migration numbers.


    Relations between the UK and EU will continue along the lines of cooperation. Negotiation and trade. You will see in my lifetime a return to independt sovereignty amongst most if not all of the EU countries. If we can make a go of it, other countries will duplicate an exit.


    European citizens will still apply to come work here, they may experience higher wages and enjoy other U.K. benefits, like tax relief, health care etc. but they will be above board, welcome and comply with UK law and assimilation if becoming British citizens after that time.


    You assume we will starve when in reality we are a capable nation of farmers and fishermen with coastal waters that have had a reprieve from over fishing. Spanish fishing fleets have for years been trawling our waters and discarding bycatch.

    Once out of the EU our own sea food markets will grow and we will make most of what we now throw back due to EU bureaucracy. Throw back and landing quotas will be fixed by our own government and not the EU. New fishing fleets will be needed Andy British boat yards will have the opportunity to build them. Since the EU take 4 x more fish out of UK waters than the UK fishermen take out of EU waters. There will be more fish to catch for UK fishermen after Brexit. More affordable food on our plates. Again, Our Country has a well established agricultural industry and will react to the market size and customer demand. Growing food for the sake of quotas and subsidies or being paid to grow nothing will be a thing of the past once we out of Brexit.

    We will also have new trade agreements with the US, Canada and New Zealand, subject to standards and conditions, even with possible tariffs. But we won’t starve, just better food production and management. Our environment will also become our flagship. For both torisum/leisure and food production. We are leading the way in agricultural developments.


    We have never had a “free ride” in Europe, we have been massive contributors to the union just like the rest. This way, we get to put what we want in our cake and eat it accordingly.


    Our infrastructure is second to none, we are not a backward country sticking our neck out to play with the big boys. Let’s see which of the 28 countries really have the potential for economic growth in the next twenty years. Just remember, it’s only a vote away and the EU wobble will become a shake, the shake will destabilise the markets and one by one, they will pull up the bridges, how do you see all those EU countries prospering when alone and independent or do you invisage them sharing the poverty and dept amongst the remaining club members?


    We/the governing body will get a kick up the arse following Brexit. Privatisation of public services ;may be on the agenda. I’m hopeful we will have a flourishing tourism industry and a relaxed approach to recreation and entertainment now prohibited. Even a Tax haven by default.

  • Well, at least you will be able to drive your landrovers..

    Ah, wait: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44438846

    :P

    only foreigners and die hard enthusiasts drive a Land Rover and they complain about them constantly needing spanner’s. I’ve had one Land Rover in 30 years and sold that after a week. We sold Land Rover some years ago. We just couldn’t get them through the proposed safety tests. Range Rover became the Chelsea tractor and drug dealers ride.


    Toyota, now there’s a motor, did I hear you say the next Toyota’s are to be built in Brexit Britain?


    https://www.ft.com/content/b17…5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936 :boing:

  • Orys, you seem to question that Britain would not be better off if it left the EU. Since you mention motor vehicles, let’s look at the motor vehicle trade for a moment.


    Last year – 2017 – the EU exported to the UK roughly 2.3 million vehicles, worth about 38.5 billion euros. That is, we paid the EU 38.5 billion euros for vehicles.

    That’s about 28% of the EU total global vehicle export value. If their vehicles couldn’t be sold here, the EU would lose almost a third of their vehicle trade overnight.


    If we then made a couple more million vehicles a year for ourselves alone, we would already have saved 38 billion euros from going abroad. That’s a lot of work and a lot of full-time employment to revive the economy, with that wealth created being spent here, not in the EU.


    By comparison, the UK exported well under a million vehicles to the EU, a little over 800,000, with a total value of only about 14. 5 billion euros. So take one away from the other and we end up being around 23.5 billion euros better off; and that is in the motor vehicle trade alone, of course.


    It is a similar story for many industries; we have grown to rely on the EU and far eastern countries to supply us with goods, instead of making those goods for ourselves.


    But I still don’t think we’ll really leave – the Tories have done very well out of the EU and the cheap labour it brings with open borders, so they’ll fudge the Brexit so that we mainly stay in, but they will try to convince us that we’ve really left….

  • only foreigners and die hard enthusiasts drive a Land Rover and they complain about them constantly needing spanner’s. I’ve had one Land Rover in 30 years and sold that after a week. We sold Land Rover some years ago. We just couldn’t get them through the proposed safety tests. Range Rover became the Chelsea tractor and drug dealers ride.


    Toyota, now there’s a motor, did I hear you say the next Toyota’s are to be built in Brexit Britain?


    https://www.ft.com/content/b17…5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936 :boing:

    We'll see about that, as this is what the spokesperson said:

    "As a company, we are doing what we can to secure the competitiveness of our UK operations as a leading manufacturing centre for our European business. With around 85% of our UK vehicle production exported to European markets, continued free and frictionless trade between the UK and Europe will be vital for future success."

    They say the commit to stay in Britain "for the life of the model". That usually means about 6 years... Of course since they started this project well before Brexit was on the table, they won't back down now, after spending all this money. But would they think about placing their new project in UK if hard brexit happens?


    Last year – 2017 – the EU exported to the UK roughly 2.3 million vehicles, worth about 38.5 billion euros. That is, we paid the EU 38.5 billion euros for vehicles.

    That’s about 28% of the EU total global vehicle export value. If their vehicles couldn’t be sold here, the EU would lose almost a third of their vehicle trade overnight.

    Currently UK is not export market for the EU. Just 2.3 of total over 15 millions of cars sold in the EU are sold in Britain. This is nowhere near your 28%. Stroke those 800 cars manufactured in Britain and you'll have just under 10% of total.

    Your point of manufacturing cars for yourself is nice, but it is not really so easy. Let me ask you a question. If I am a car manufacturer and want to look for the place to locate my new factory, where I should locate it: inside the market that is able to swallow 2.3 million of cars per year? Or in the market able to swallow 13 million of cars per year?

    To be able to invite those car manufacturers to Britain, you would have to be really competetive with labour costs and stuff. It will be hard to compete from outside the EU with cars built in Romania or Slovakia.


    Of course, Britain has great engineers, it could easily desing car on its own, because why not, right? Bring back British Leyland, put some posh Rovers for the upper classes and some New Hillmans for the masses, right? Except it is no longer so easy. Times where the new car could be designed in the shed by a few guys are long time gone. Today, design of the new car is so expensive, that companies share the same vehicles and just sell them under different badges. And then to offset the costs, the factories have to be build in the biggest markets possible.

    Only after such cars become outdated and manufacturing lines are replaced by those of the new models, the production is moved to less important markets. This is why Dacia is de facto mostly old Renault models with facelifts (still sold as Renault in Russia), Daewoo was producing mostly derivatives of Opel Kadett and rejecteds project of Peugeot 405 (Nexia) and Fiat 500 (Matiz) that they mended a bit and so on. So somehow I can't see Britain becoming manufacturer of the modern cars - because British market itself is too small, and your potential trade partners would rather not be buying cars manufactured in UK, as they will be really expensive for them...

    In other direction though - well, Britain is already open to imports from China or Malasya - MG's, Great Walls, new LDV's or Protons are common sight on your roads already. So it might end, that instead of buying cars from Europe, that was also interested in buying cars from you, you'll end up with buying cars from Asia while having no market for your cars there.


    Quote

    It is a similar story for many industries; we have grown to rely on the EU and far eastern countries to supply us with goods, instead of making those goods for ourselves.


    Because by being a member of a big community, you can share your production base to have it cheaper. You don't make your own shoes, you don't grow your own food, you don't tailor your own clothes, you dont construct your tractor yourself etc etc, right? You got one job - I guess you are a farmer - but you sell raw products to other people, who process it into something else.

    You can say "I am working so hard to raise this crop on my farm farm and then those bastards from big city mill it into the flour, and then yet another guys bake bread of it, and then they sell me back this bread at terrible price". But would you be really better of, if you decided to screw them and manufacture your bread from seeding the seeds to packing sliced bread into the plastic bags you manufactured yourself?

    There is a reason why it is better if there is a division of roles in the society. People take different roles in the society for millenias, EU economy is simply the same thing at the bigger scale (although stained by greedy capitalism of course).

    So OK, that was a nice try, but I am not really convinced. And last but not least, if you are so up for no-deal Brexit, how you want to create this car manufacturing industry before 19th of March? Will that new Toyota car, along with Micra and Qashqai, some Minis from Oxford, VIvaro vans in Luton, Daf assembly plant in Leyland and few other manufacturers be able to meet demand of British market (assuming, that it won't indeed hit the people very hard, and they will still have money to buy new cars). And will those factories be able to produce cars without using components shipped from EU to do so?

  • With these EU car manufactures recalling their expensive cars, VW and Daimler for installing computer programs to cheat emission test, Germany recalling 238,000 Mercedes and 774,000 diesel vehicles accross Europe, the U.K. has lost confidence in the European car market now. We will buy jap cars silly, they will be even cheaper to “us” new UK partners. The big players of the world would like nothing more than to squash any EU competition given the chance. Why would we be foolish and pay for European cars if they refuse to offer the buying UK public a better deal, just because they have had their nose and profits put out? You really should just get that passport orys. Your just trying to convince yourself you have nothing to loose here. You probably haven’t, if you’ve never had it. I’ve owned plenty of jap motors. Never own what your not happy with. Be that on price, build quality or trust.


    In my opinion Brexit is the best thing that can happen for this country, deal or no deal. If for no other reason than to control borders and future unsustainable immigration, slow and stop radicalisation on UK soil. Reclaim free speech without fear of being called racist. Those EU leaders are sitting pretty. They have it made. They want to retire ten years early on vastly inflated pensions, why would they want you to know the truth, they need to bullshit you for a bit longer and spin is their method of choice.