Everything is in God, and God is in everything

  • Them pesky scientists have discovered many types of energy , all measurable ,quantifiable and following the laws of physics....


    To believe that there is another special energy based on superstition ,because it cannot be detected or measured does not add to the 'mystery' for me , it just makes me think its less credible.

  • The Energy of Disappointment.


    I remember when Princess Diana died. Our dog, Rusty got all weird on the day of the funeral (so it was the public grief that got her not Di's death). She came into the living room, where she isn't allowed. But because she was so distressed we allowed her. She went into the corner of the room, whining and quietly squeeking, shaking a bit and her body forming a curled up catterpillar shape, as though she was trying to disappear.


    We really didn't understand it any other way than her picking up on 'something in the air'.


    I remember seeing a documentary saying there have been electiricy surges (at the plants?) when emotionally-charged public events happen. People just can't contain themselves.

  • To believe that there is another special energy based on superstition ,because it cannot be detected or measured does not add to the 'mystery' for me , it just makes me think its less credible.

    Don't forget that only three hundred years ago, most forms of energy which are now regarded as commonplace, were completely unknown. Nobody is basing anything on superstition here, we are looking at philosophical possibilities.

    Do not limit your mind to the present state of knowledge; we would still have the church in charge of the state if we had not had scientists who wanted to push further than they were allowed to.

  • Don't forget that only three hundred years ago, most forms of energy which are now regarded as commonplace, were completely unknown. Nobody is basing anything on superstition here, we are looking at philosophical possibilities.

    Do not limit your mind to the present state of knowledge; we would still have the church in charge of the state if we had not had scientists who wanted to push further than they were allowed to.

    An ex partner upon a heavy-ish discussion one was really pushing the do not limit the mind to the present state of knowldge aspect which also encomapssed energy forms, fields of resonation of various energies including particles/molecules and their rates of resonation which goes a way to creating form. so for instant, a wooden door, you touch/slap/punch it,

    it appeares solid, but on a molecular level it isnt. as science now knows, it will be made up of an undeterminable amount of individual particles/molecules etc that are all interconnected to create the form that is wood, so the discusstion goes onto the endless possibilities of humans learning and tapping in to the deeper aspects of the resonation/vibrational values and levels of a human, going by her train of thought of endless possibilities, if we could alter our levels of resonation/vibrational levels and tune into the same levels of molecules/particles of other things, say a piece of wood, if we then matched it, her train of thought was we then should be able to put our hand through the piece of wood. Now wouldnt that be an interesting concept of endless possibilites.

  • My small brain struggles to understand the concept of happy , sad or dissapointed with death , its just ...er .... being dead.

    The planet is billions of years old and the universe considerably older where were you prior to your birth? , because thats how I imagine being dead.

    Thats what I say to those in fear of death.It is simply returning from whence you came .

  • "The planet is billions of years old and the universe considerably older where were you prior to your birth? , because thats how I imagine being dead." Shroom


    I can't imagine being dead. I can't even imagine being asleep. And when I sleep I always wake up. I can only imagine being alive. Consciousness is the absolute sum total of my living experience. Death is outside of that. I don't even believe it exists in any real sense. But it's all a weird paradox the more you think about it. Perhaps we do just * End *. I find void a difficult concept.


    Magicians pretend to make things disappear. We know through philosophy and applied science that things change. Accounts of things disappearing, when analysed are deceptive. Life is one of the most precious things, it's 'invisible', we don't know truly what it is, where it comes from . . . but some assume this most precious thing can disappear, just like that.


    That's why I believe life is eternal (but I've always believed it in my gut anyway). And it's not really a protective thing. My life hasn't always been good. I don't fear death, I have some curiosity and of course I'd be nervous at its imminent approach. As Emo quoted, his father's last words: Yikes! A truck!.


    I know what you mean Shroom and cricket - there is something to be said for accepting death for 'what it is', and not endlessy discussing it - bit I've always been interested and in a way, it is part of what makes life what it is. Thanks for liking my starsoul thing cricket - a lot of people look at me weird when I go on like that.

  • An interesting train of thought there, wizard.

    We - some friends and myself - have often had long and wandering discussions on these subjects. Usually it gets more possible as the evening goes on, especially if the beer is good.:)

    Such discussions are usually sparked by some OTT book or article someone has been reading. But other times someone who has had scientific or medical training brings them up, and then you kind of realise we are on human frontier territory here.

    I am reminded of Jules Verne saying: "What one human is able to imagine, other humans will be able to do."

  • Oh, and the missing link is Hermes Trismegistus' - As above so below, meaning that if you find a truism in the bigger things, it's logical to apply it to other things.


    That's why I mentioned that thing about we have no real evidence of true disappearing (only things changing). Applying Hermes' idea, many then went on to conject: So, life as well doesn't disappear? It just changes.

  • Oh, and the missing link is Hermes Trismegistus' - As above so below, meaning that if you find a truism in the bigger things, it's logical to apply it to other things.


    That's why I mentioned that thing about we have no real evidence of true disappearing (only things changing). Applying Hermes' idea, many then went on to conject: So, life as well doesn't disappear? It just changes.

    Except when it applies to Hermes the courier company, tey dont just change parcles, they truly can make them dissappear, in that I mean something that never ever gets to where it should be.

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  • An interesting train of thought there, wizard.

    We - some friends and myself - have often had long and wandering discussions on these subjects. Usually it gets more possible as the evening goes on, especially if the beer is good.:)

    Such discussions are usually sparked by some OTT book or article someone has been reading. But other times someone who has had scientific or medical training brings them up, and then you kind of realise we are on human frontier territory here.

    I am reminded of Jules Verne saying: "What one human is able to imagine, other humans will be able to do."

    Well, as long as someone who may be able to achieve a vibrational level enough to put their arm through a wooden door and long enough to keep it up so as to be able to remove a hand or arm from a solid object, if you lost the levels mid flow then they would be err attached, they'd have to get someone to cut the door up to be able to get their arm out, so the advice to a practitioner hoping to do this, do it to something that will be relatively easy to have removed. Imagine matching the vibrational levels of another human, enough to put your arm through them as if it was a hologram.

  • When I worked as an archaeologist I excavated hundreds of burials, dating from the Iron through to the late 19th century. Every time I would wonder who that person was, their name and what gods/goddess they hoped to meet at the end of their life. I would always apologise for disturbing their final resting place and if it was a child I'd talk them through what I was doing (in my head) because I didn't want them to be frightened. I appreciate that this makes me sound very odd but it seemed the most respectful way of treating them. My lasting impression was that there is an incredible sense of peace at the end/beginning (depending on your view point).


    I really liked Cricket's point about death "It is simply returning from whence you came" and nothing to be feared.

  • An interesting train of thought there, wizard.

    We - some friends and myself - have often had long and wandering discussions on these subjects. Usually it gets more possible as the evening goes on, especially if the beer is good.:)

    Such discussions are usually sparked by some OTT book or article someone has been reading. But other times someone who has had scientific or medical training brings them up, and then you kind of realise we are on human frontier territory here.

    I am reminded of Jules Verne saying: "What one human is able to imagine, other humans will be able to do."

    Sounds just like a typical evenings philosophy old stoned and pssd hippys have been having since about the 1960s.:D

  • Do you mean that nothing is ever gained nor lost in the universe,the sum of what was,is the sum of what is and the sum of what is to be?

  • Do you mean that nothing is ever gained nor lost in the universe,the sum of what was,is the sum of what is and the sum of what is to be?

    That nothing is wasted, so although it may change its form, that which composed the form still remains. In some form or other, if you pardon the pun.

    The first law of thermodynamics: The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

    For this to be true, we have to assume that whatever is out there is a closed system, from which energy cannot escape. So far as we know, the universe is a closed system.

  • Black holes? I must confess I have never personally.... Ah, the astronomical variety?


    Have you already started celebrating the Solstice, Maxal?


    Nobody here could possibly know how 'deep' they are; in fact we know not a lot at all. Much of what is written about them is surmise, anyway.

    If they are moving a mass of planetary debris, stars, etc out of our continuum, under the laws of thermodynamics they must be moving it elsewhere. (Some postulate that this is where the missing 'dark matter/dark energy' 90-odd percentage of the known universe has gone).


    Bull's Arse? Sounds like the name for one of those new varieties of real ale one sees in the supermarkets; really only a slight variation on a regular brew, but give it a new name and a lot of swillers will give it a try.

  • oldkeith - I wish I were celebrating the Solstice properly. At the moment my life is a bit tied up. But I am enjoying the long nights. Even late at night, it is not fully dark, there is a grey cast, not the best for star gazing, but it's energizing in its own way.


    "For this to be true, we have to assume that whatever is out there is a closed system, from which energy cannot escape. So far as we know, the universe is a closed system." oldkeith

    What you say in (106) is why I raised the question of Black Holes' depths. Even Steven Hawking has conjectured a black hole could be a gateway to an alternative universe. [Hence the possibility the universe isn't a closed system. Certainly, the word "universe" implies closed system.] The word "hole" and some descriptions have lead me to believe in a literal "hole". The hole in space concept has always lead to questions / problems. A hole in what? How can you have a hole in space? A hole in 'air'? Come on . . . and then, how deep is that hole?


    Recently I have been wondering what if a star is not like a wormhole? Ie not infinite depth and not leading to another universe. I have been thinking of the black hole concept in terms which are maybe less fantastical, in terms of the process which created it. I thought about the question of depth and what a black hole is (a star's mass increasing to such a great extent it then eventually implodes on its own gravity - even its light and things external to it succumbs and gets sucked in). There, finally, we have a more graspable, finite, thing. Because of that I thought, well surely the depth then wouldn't surpass the radius of the star? The 'so-called infinite gravity' of the black star is sucking everything up into a particular space (?) which would be kind of equivalent to what space the star would have previously occupied. That would be a closed system.


    Unless, indeed the force of such an implosion does tear open the fabric of the universe: inceasingly, the Great Colander in the Sky people thought stars were the holes of, is more a colander of black holes . . . there is eactly 100 million black holes in our galaxy: a big colander.


    So I looked up the depth question. I got an answer that a black hole is half of the diameter of the event horizon. I will look up EH properly at some point, but I moved on. Generally a lot of views don't see it as a hole at all. The hole metaphor could have been messing with my conception of it. One person, put it very well, saying, it's an object (the previously imploded star as object with perhaps 'infinite' mass) which has immense gravity, so sucks everything to it. Some say it doesn't take any space, others that it distorts space and others that it rips space and space-time. The latter is where alternative universes come in.


    As you probably guess I am still processing this. I want to know how a star feeds and get's bigger, that would shed light on what the process means in terms of everything else. (The black star is a process towards something else, some kind of stage.)


    I better end it here. I'm probably looking incredibly naive to the astronomers . . .:eek:

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  • No, you're doing pretty well:).

    There are so many theories about black holes - and white holes - that it's mind-blowing to try to figure them out. And these theories change with time and new observations and data - and ideas, of course.


    One idea which I read about had the holes as some kind of balanced energy interchange between different universes, which themselves constituted a closed system. (I think they had to put that closed system in so certain scientific laws were seen to be observed).


    It is thought that under certain conditions some stars can implode as you say, and fall in upon themselves, initiating a gravity chain-reaction, with the matter being packed incredibly densely together. (A small cube of which would pass through the Earth as if the Earth was gas).

    Some of these can eventually reach such a pressure they explode into a type of supernova.


    Some massive stars may even turn into black 'holes', dragging everything within range into them under immense gravitational forces, a bit like a whirlpool. What happens to this matter - and the heat energy created by this process - is the big puzzle - where is it all going, and is it coming out somewhere else? Black holes can merge too, eventually becoming super-massive black holes[panic].


    I'm off to bed:sleeping:

  • If this fascinates you, if you havent already, I really suggest you get a copy of the book 'Proxima' by Stephen Baxter, it is a sci fi novel and explores the notion of different universes connected by what could be desceribes as worm holes but in the novel they are links between universes created by a much older race than the characters in the book, although it is sci fi, it isnt all monsters and aliens which suits me as I dont do sci fi when it comes to blood dripping gore like the film Alien. The second book is Ultima, seriously well worth the read and two of the best books in my all time reads.

  • "What happens to this matter - and the heat energy created by this process - is the big puzzle - where is it all going, and is it coming out somewhere else?" oldkeith


    Yes, that's the question, that's why I'm going to read up more on how a star feeds, it's some kind of furnace for the creation of something, and what feeds that and enables it to grow in such a way? If the result is then a black hole, maybe it's something conceptual which can be understood . . . it must be some major transubstatiation?

  • wizardluv - I have made a note about the two Bears you like. In a way, I prefer SF to hard science, it's fun and gives you time to think about the ideas. I have only read one book by Greg Bear, Songs of Earth and Power, and that was a while ago. Doris Lessing, who has written some of my favourite social science fiction, spoke highly of Greg Bear's Blood Music, which I have been meaning to read for years. Have you read that one? I wonder how it compares to the two you mention.


    One of my favourite SF writers for imaginative interpretation of science and the future of humanity is Olaf Stapledon, you should look him up. I have read First and Last Men and want to read its companion Starmaker. Olaf takes you from the present and step by step takes you through the possible evolution (and occasional devolutions) of humanity, millions of years into the future. It's incredible where we go. ;) The first ten pages for some reason reads a bit awkwardly, fussing about certain political eventualities, but as he distances himself from our present prison his imagination is given full reign and he starts to take in awesome possibilities. There's a funny bit in one section how at one point humans revert to a monkey-like being, I can't remember the details.


    Olaf Stapledon has also written some truly odd books (which I like the sound of - I like totally mad things):


    Sirius - this title must be a play on the word "serious" as the book sounds surreal, but given the author I suspect it does have its serious side. He tries to break down human preconceptions in order to make humans think anew. Quoted from elsewhere:


    "Sirius is Thomas Trelone's great experiment - a huge, handsome dog with the brain and intelligence of a human being. Raised and educated in Trelone's own family alongside Plaxy, his youngest daughter, Sirius is a truly remarkable and gifted creature."


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    . . . and Odd John -"John Wainwright is a freak, a human mutation with an extraordinary intelligence which is both awesome and frightening to behold. Ordinary humans are mere playthings to him."


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  • I have made a note on my list of books to get regarding the books you mentioned Maxal, will read a review or two forst before scooting to the on line second hand book sellers I use when I want somehting specific. I love browsing the shelfs in a second hand book shop or charity shops, but when I am looking for something specific, the chances of them having what I am after is very hit and miss.

  • Good stuff there, Maxal. Though written a long time back, Stapledon's books are well worth reading.

    First & Last Men was one of my early favourites, and mind-blowing in the depths of human evolutionary time it covered. In a way, more of an imagined catalogue of time, rather than the usual SF novel.