Everything is in God, and God is in everything

  • Post by marcco ().

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  • hmmmm to allay and make a set of stories about the unknown or death ?? i ask you do you believe in life after death ? because i dont ,and are such stories of reincarnation healthy ? after all death is part of life ,and something we all have to experience at some point with relatives ect ,wether religious believers or not

    No I dont believe in life after death as in the stories about there being a heaven that the bible spews forth, the church used those stories to allay peoples fear about death and still do, because people who believe in it, whole heartedly believe there is a heaven and are convinced they are going. Back in early christian times and before, peoples must have either had their own notions about death and what may happen afterwards, the Egyptians were big on burials for sending their kings and queens off into an afterlife, notions of it have been around for a long before the bible came along, the bible offered a story about if you come to God and follow the ways of the church then they would be absolved of what the church deemed as sins and go to heaven or if they didnt adhere then they threatened hell and given they way heaven was put out there, it was a story that probably did allay folks fears as they then had something they felt and believed to be certain. Kind of a mass blackmail upon church goers really. Its a pity you cant ask a believer if they would be seriously pissed off if they found out there was no heaven after believing in it all their life and invested much time and effort into it, but they wont know anything about it to be disappointed. I presume by going to heaven, they mean a form of the conscienceness they had in their body while on earth will go somewhere and they will be conscious of it. The nuts and bolts of it probably gives people something to hold onto to get them through this life more than anything, I find it's a case of seriously clutching at straws to think they believe they will consciencely be aware of going to an afterlife.


    I cant be bothered to invest time and thoughts into wondering what comes after, just accept the end will come and thats it, will deal with the rest later if something does happen after death, which I doubt it.


  • I cannot attribute the word god to being a name or term for how life came about on earth. As cricket sais, the connotations of that word just do not belong in anything concerning how life on earth came about. The only logocal conclusion I can have thats a notion of belief and that being down to the modern science we have these days is evolution and a series of chemical connections being made from the very simple to the extremely complex. a primordial soup if you will. Very simple proteins, cellular structures and minerals etc coming into contact and forming something else.

  • Religion can be viewed as a form of psychological compensation for a shitty life. Often a shitty life at the hands of the religion that is in power at any particular time, or, more recently at the hands of politicians. Life here is tough but, never mind, if we all do as we are told we will go to a place where it will be warm enough to be pleasant, and we will be in the company of those we have been taught to admire all our lives.

    So, really a promise. Just like any political promise before an election.


    The somewhat curious idea that 'God is in everything' raises interesting questions.

    Is God then present in the mind and intentions of the huge snake waiting for its human victim in the jungle? Is God then present in the mind and intentions of the serial murderer as he awaits his next victim, the girl taking the short-cut back from school? Is God present in the mind and intentions of the torturer, as well as the tortured?

    You cannot really use the term 'God' without making a 'God' appear responsible for his actions, which then appear to be reprehensible, to say the very least.

    It might be better in this context to use the term 'life-force', instead, as we can accept that an unknowing and unconscious force cannot be held responsible.

  • I cannot attribute the word god to being a name or term for how life came about on earth. As cricket sais, the connotations of that word just do not belong in anything concerning how life on earth came about. The only logocal conclusion I can have thats a notion of belief and that being down to the modern science we have these days is evolution and a series of chemical connections being made from the very simple to the extremely complex. a primordial soup if you will. Very simple proteins, cellular structures and minerals etc coming into contact and 2forming something else.

    "protoplasmic crud"have a listen.x

  • Indeed oldkeith, psychological compensation ( superb term, love it) or bribery/blackmail. Although life may not have been shitty before someone took religion up, the way religion went about with it's fire and brimstone and threatening hell, it made out their life was shitty if they didnt take on religion or would make it shiity if they didnt. I think if someone started a religion these days in the same way they'd get done for intimidation and blackmail, like crims selling time shares for a holiday apartment that doesnt exist, ha, love that analogy, it is isnt it, religion promising heaven is no different to selling time shares and those that buy the shares upon arrival find there's nothing there. you'd get banged up for that. Imagine that as a court case, "bring in the defendant", moses, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


    Funnily enough, I have been reading some historical novels by Bernard Cornwell, the warrior chronicle series with Uhtred a sthe mnain character, have just gone past a bit where he's writing about King Alfred, he was writing about how he gave the church men of the time much greater powers to oversee the population and act ike a local government on his behalf when the land was not far off being over ruled by the Danes. I can easily imagine the church gaining powers like that over people by those powers being bestowed upon them by the kings of the time rather than being a force in its own right. After all, various kings have swapped the land from being Catholic dominant or Christian dominant depending on the beliefs of the time and the background of any incumbent to the throne.


    As you say, using the word God automatically pertains to a supreme being rather than a force, life force is much more encompassing to describe this.

  • Apart from learning about the "witch trials" as a youngster,hearing that a child who died before christening supposedly had their soul cast between heaven and hell in eternal limbo,seeing the churches esp catholic buried in gold while people starve,the local vicar in a huge free rectory while people were homeless.All the blood spilled in name of religion,etc etc.I understood the farce from an early age.The whole mess stinks.The total laugh though is that no one can return from death and demand a refund cos they found out that heaven and hell is a lie.:D

  • Strange that most of the worlds population are born into the 'correct' religious society (if they aint then you do get the odd war/conflict) ,the word 'indoctrination' springs to mind. I have no religious leanings and find the rituals slightly amusing, if you dont do them/it enough times then its no 50 virgins or no pearly gates, indeed an innocent child whos parents cannnot afford the baptism bribe goes to limbo..... Penance is another goodun , proper cash cow for some religions.

    Places around the globe far from the middle east worshiped different gods , South America I believe it was common to appease their god/gods by cutting peeps hearts out,sometimes hundreds at a time in the hope to it make it rain etc,limited success but hey they tried!! , nowadays we see that as ludicrous and some go off to read the best selling book of all time, the good book, as fairy tales go its a good one, right up there with the brothers Grimm.

  • Apart from learning about the "witch trials" as a youngster,hearing that a child who died before christening supposedly had their soul cast between heaven and hell in eternal limbo,seeing the churches esp catholic buried in gold while people starve,the local vicar in a huge free rectory while people were homeless.All the blood spilled in name of religion,etc etc.I understood the farce from an early age.The whole mess stinks.The total laugh though is that no one can return from death and demand a refund cos they found out that heaven and hell is a lie.:D

    Thats it totally, a refund, for what, wasting their life in false hope. the church would go bankrupt over night if that became fact. I so want to know if a life time believer would be proper pissed on there being nothing after death, next time if I perchance to get involved in a discussion about such things with someone of faith I'm going to ask them. What is infuriating is the thought that many would probably say they have that much faith and belief that there is no question of there not being a heaven waiting for them.

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  • Yes wizard, we do meet some 'interesting' religious people sometimes. We have a local vicar's wife who is into 'saving' souls. At every opportunity. Quite from what, I'm not sure. Some imagined damnation, presumably.

    As most of our council estate must consist of the damned, she is kept pretty busy, especially as most of them think she's a nice lady, but off her rocker. I'll have to ask her your question if I get to talking with her sometime.


    Of course your question does raise other metaphysical issues: Supposing one found after death one had not gone to the expected heavenly place, where would one be? One would have to be somewhere, and have some form of consciousness, in order to appreciate the disappointment of there being no heaven.:reddevil:

  • Yes wizard, we do meet some 'interesting' religious people sometimes. We have a local vicar's wife who is into 'saving' souls. At every opportunity. Quite from what, I'm not sure. Some imagined damnation, presumably.

    As most of our council estate must consist of the damned, she is kept pretty busy, especially as most of them think she's a nice lady, but off her rocker. I'll have to ask her your question if I get to talking with her sometime.


    Of course your question does raise other metaphysical issues: Supposing one found after death one had not gone to the expected heavenly place, where would one be? One would have to be somewhere, and have some form of consciousness, in order to appreciate the disappointment of there being no heaven.:reddevil:

    I have been googling,researching etc for ages but cannot find any info whatsoever from persons who feel unhappy with their post death situation,so I guess it must be ok.:)

  • Yes wizard, we do meet some 'interesting' religious people sometimes. We have a local vicar's wife who is into 'saving' souls. At every opportunity. Quite from what, I'm not sure. Some imagined damnation, presumably.

    As most of our council estate must consist of the damned, she is kept pretty busy, especially as most of them think she's a nice lady, but off her rocker. I'll have to ask her your question if I get to talking with her sometime.


    Of course your question does raise other metaphysical issues: Supposing one found after death one had not gone to the expected heavenly place, where would one be? One would have to be somewhere, and have some form of consciousness, in order to appreciate the disappointment of there being no heaven.:reddevil:

    Please do Keith, next time you bump gums with your local fervent soul saver, ask what she thinks, I would be interested, but as I imagine, someone that staunch will probably say it is not a question of if, their belief being that strong, there is without question a heaven waiting for them as described how it is in the bible. It is worth throwing random questions at these people to keep them on their toes because I am sure they are faced with such a connundrum, they wont let it lie when the conversation ends and company parted, I bet they go and mull on it for weeks.





    And exactly that, your on my wavelength, if it isnt heaven, it is somewere, it has to be because you would be conscious of it, you cant be nowhere, you wouldnt exist. Personally I dont care either way, I dont even have a glimmer of hope that there is something after death, given how for centuries, humans have been fed with the notion that there is something akin to an afterlife after death. It will be a case of if there is nothing I am dead, ta ta, end of, or if there is something and am conscious of it, I will give it my best shot to hell raise it up and party.


    Hey here's a hyperthetical thought that just pinged into my head, what if all the accrued energy of dissappointment created by those who may have discovered the afterlife is nothing like they envisioned after a life long belief of how it is, all thaty dissappointment is leaking back into earth thus creating what we know as negative energy. :insane::insane::insane:

  • I have been googling,researching etc for ages but cannot find any info whatsoever from persons who feel unhappy with their post death situation,so I guess it must be ok.:)

    Well well, they as you say must either be alright with it or really do believe that they will go to that place they believe exists, you know, going by the bibles description of heaven, it does allude to the soul is going there after death and is conscious of the fact, theoretically that is, so as the bible is the be all and end all and is the whole truth and nothing but the truth according to believers, they really do believe wholeheartedly they are going to the biblical description of heaven. I struggle with how certain they can be when one of the very few certain things in life is that one is going to die when one does. Tomorrow is an uncertainty, as is the next day and so on. as anything could potentially happen or not, let alone being certain there is place in heaven waiting for the faithful. To my way of thinking, they cant be certain there is a heaven as they would have tell you, it must really be hope that they have more than saying they know. I still am so curious as to what they feel about nothing being there after death while alive and believing there is.

  • I once told a fervent Christian, who asked me what I thought would be there after death, if not the biblical version, that if there was something, that would be a new adventure; and if there was nowt, I'd be able to get my head down....:D

  • I have been googling,researching etc for ages but cannot find any info whatsoever from persons who feel unhappy with their post death situation,so I guess it must be ok.:)

    Yes, it's a very bad line from there to here.:)


    However, there have been numerous near-death experiences that are interesting, if only for their variety. Some have been in semi-religious settings, but only for religious people. Which suggests they have happened inside the head of the believer, rather than part of them going somewhere else.


    Unless of course one's ideas here colour at least the beginnings of the afterlife, if there is one?

    I don't dismiss such things out of hand, as I have heard accounts from nurses and others who have to sometimes watch people die. Last words are sometimes descriptive of some form of transition.


    And something like this happened to me once, (after a near-fatal accident while trying to help somebody!) and I went to a lovely peaceful place, with beings that in almost every way seemed to be 'spiritually' (for want of a better word) more advanced than I, and I found them slightly awesome. These beings were human in form, but they shone in some way, like they wore their energy on the outside of themselves. They seemed protective and kindly, and I felt like a dog that had found its way home. I didn't want to leave.


    All this happened inside my head, quite likely. Yet there was little in the experience that I could connect to anything in my upbringing or past experiences in my life up to that point.


    Perhaps we have some kind of inner recording that plays these pleasant illusions at critical moments? But this begs the question: To what purpose? It does not serve any evolutionary purpose to do this; it doesn't matter to evolution how we feel when we die. Always more questions that answers.

  • The brain remains active several minutes after death.It must feel rapturous to be unshackled from the body.Thats why it is so important to be quiet,mindful,gentle and kind after death a while.Perhaps the time we enter spirit.I always allow the dying I have been priviliged to mind,to remain resting a day or so after death.I have no belief in afterlife ,it just seems fitting a person is given time to leave properly,with dignity ,peace and love.

  • I once told a fervent Christian, who asked me what I thought would be there after death, if not the biblical version, that if there was something, that would be a new adventure; and if there was nowt, I'd be able to get my head down....:D

    Either its head down or burnt depending on the method of disposal someone chooses before

    they die.

  • I too had a very near death experience after a bad car accident. I went into that space beyond sitting down and going unconscious, at the point of blacking out, I was aware of it and was convinced that was my lot and had breathed my last. In my head, it was the most serene

    peaceful moment imagineable. I put that down the release of DMT that the brain lets out form the pineal gland on point of death.As we know DMT is a powerful substance, it is said it is released naturally twice in a life, once when you are born, and again when you die and I can only presume it's to lessen the impact of a major change, and as the brain stays alive after the body has shut down, the DMT probaly wipes out any earth bound thoughts and emotions carrying on in the brain that were there when a body was still alive and conscious, makes total sense to me. I didnt recall any ethereal beings, just a massive sense of peacefulness, didnt last long, then nothing, next thing I know, I'm brought around in a hospital bed, although the moment I opened my eyes in the white room, for a few seconds I was wondering if I was some where else after life, but then the bleeping machines and the fittest nurse imagineable soon confirmed I was still on the earthly plane. And that was mainly because the nurses presence in all her glory stirred things under the bed sheets :whistle::whistle::whistle:

  • An interesting account, wizard.

    But to what evolutionary purpose? No evolutionary purpose is served by giving us a comfortable death, or for that matter an unpleasant one. It does nothing at all to further the evolution and survival of our species.

    Or is there something more involved here?


    Incidentally, the nearest I have come to an (artificially-induced) DMT sort of experience was the pre-med I had before going in for the anesthetic for an operation, one time. It was totally releasing; I had no worries about anything, just floating along, enjoying the scene. Still conscious, but watching everything with a kind of detached amusement, even the countdown until the anesthetic knocked me out. (I got to 7, I recall).

    It was far more peaceful and deep an experience than anything I have taken or smoked before or since.

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  • I cant imagine as to what evolutionary purpose there would be to it, only as something that the brain can do to switch off the earth bound thoughts and emotions and pump DMT in the system to rest the head, like a pleasant off switch if you will, how do we know if birds and animals have it too so they can just lay down and go to sleep. I actually feel the conscieneness we know of being alive goes out at the point of death as well although the brain is said to be active for minutes after, I am sure we are not conscious of it in the way we are when we are alive. but who's to say perhaps we are fully conscious in the brain when the organs inc. the heart have totally shut down. It is a truly fascinating subject. I do feel from what I've read that the changes the body and brain goes through at the point of death including the DMT aspect, blanks us off, also I feel it has evolved with us and all living animals and mammals have a shut down mechanism at the point of death.

  • It would be nice to know that all sentient creatures here have this automatic facility for taking the worst out of an extreme and usually final situation.

    If it can have no evolutionary purpose that we can figure out, yet it happens, then we have to look elsewhere than evolution, as we understand it, for a solution as to why it happens.


    Livingstone the missionary later said about the famous incident when he was grabbed by a lion, and felt no pain, being in a dreamlike state, that no doubt a bountiful God had deliberately provided for this mechanism to happen in extremis. He was very religious of course, so he would say that.


    But it is one explanation - a God who in His wisdom has seen fit to create a dreadful world where most creatures have to either eat or kill and eat everything else, relenting sufficiently to put a mechanism in place to spare them their final terrible discomfort.

    Hmmm.

    What other explanations can we come up with?

  • Keith, I've copied and pasted the paragraph below that I posted way above that you missed, I'm still mulling it over as a possibilty.



    Hey here's a hyperthetical thought that just pinged into my head, what if all the accrued energy of dissappointment created by those who may have discovered the afterlife is nothing like they envisioned after a life long belief of how it is, all that dissappointment is leaking back into earth thus creating what we know as negative energy. :insane::insane::insane:

  • Yeah, wizard, I saw that, the Earth like a kind of sink-hole of negativity. Things are bad enough man, without that prospect:). Every religious person making us feel worse when they peg out because Their God doesn't exist....


    But again, this does mean they have to be somewhere and in a conscious state to register their disappointment...


    You know, I was going to start a thread one time about atheists and agnostics, and the possible realm of an afterlife. There is nothing that says religious people have sole claim to an afterlife. They just think they do, because they believe in it, or profess to. There is nothing to stop anyone pondering a further stage of existence via logical or philosophical thought, rather than believing anything.

  • What a horrible thought wizardluv and you had to repeat it - that loads of angels are hurling back their dissapointment at us here on Earth. Would angels be so cruel?


    The Energy of Disappointment


    Ummmmm, it does have a ring to it. :angel:

  • I do feel like I am gate crashing a quiet party here. I wish I was in on this one from the beginning, I like the metaphysical ones.


    One thing I can't escape is the passage of light. Where would we be without it? Is there a world without light?


    Stars emit light. Eyeballs absorb light. The pupil is like a black hole. Stars can become black holes. To conclude the circularity - can pupils eventually, at some point emit light? Can they become stars? (Like many people say: we all have a star.)


    All the light from stars and the sun, travels vast distances and ends up in our eyeballs, reflecting off the world in between, giving us our perception. Our lives are spent weaving perception, light and our thoughts into our consciousness.


    Stars when they get huge, they implode and become black holes. I think black holes hold 'infinite gravity'. And at the 'bottom' is the event horizon / singularity. I have problems with infinity - I don't really believe in it. Wouldn't infinite gravity suck everything up instantly? But an immense gravity I can understand, so that is how I take it.


    I think stars are the opposite of eyeballs. There is something in this antithetical relation. Eyeballs are weird; they transfer the external light of the world, into our individual perceptions of the world.


    When we die, our souls are lighter than a feather, they instantly get sucked up into the nearest black hole (because of the infinite gravity) and enter the event horizon (or singularity). All the light we have absorbed in life, through our black hole pupils, enters the black hole of the star, and at event horizon . . . there is some kind of transubstantiation and we turn into light, become stars.


    There is a circularity to this.

  • What a horrible thought wizardluv and you had to repeat it - that loads of angels are hurling back their dissapointment at us here on Earth. Would angels be so cruel?


    The Energy of Disappointment


    Ummmmm, it does have a ring to it. :angel:

    Ah dear boy, it was just a thought, doesnt make it real, liken it to all the lottery ticket buyers, you can guarantee it that every week when the results of the draw are aired and they dont win, they give off an amount of dissapointment that they didnt win the millions, its the energy of dissapointment effect, it's real. Dont you ever open a fresh pack of colombian coffee and hoping it might be stuffed with high grade cocaine instead of coffee :insane: pppphhhhtttt. so imagine someone who has had a lifelong belief they are going through the pearly gates, but as Keith says. they then have to be somewhere for the dissapointment to be felt.

  • My small brain struggles to understand the concept of happy , sad or dissapointed with death , its just ...er .... being dead.

    The planet is billions of years old and the universe considerably older where were you prior to your birth? , because thats how I imagine being dead.

  • Yes, where indeed? We came here from somewhere, and nothing is wasted. What is not known is whether we are just a collection of minerals and water, or whether there is some innate energy that goes forth when we expire here.


    And as what? Pure energy of some kind, or energy wrapped up in a physical (or metaphysical?) form?


    Looking at it philosophically, without any trappings of religion, we could be some form of energy that for some reason has to go through a variety of experiences in what appears to be a material universe. Presumably to 'learn' things it could not do otherwise? But for what reason, what purpose?


    The important thing is that nothing is wasted. The universe can change its millions of forms millions of times. Whether we are just purely physical entities and no more than that, or whether we are bundles of energy going from one bodily experience to another, nothing can ever be wasted.

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