How to criticise Islam without being Islamophobic?

  • Seems like a bad case of islamophila

    I guess that every other report , story or docmentary on this Rochdale muslim

    grooming gang horror story must have been reported wrong , even when they reported the facts and conversations that they had held with health, workers , councillors and police offices involved in this whole disgraceful affair.

    I suppose that every other report must have been put out with the express purpose to disseminate this pure ' racist ' propoganda - that the story didn't come to light sooner because people didn't want to be called racist .How fortunate we are then that the SWP is here with absolutely no agenda at all to put us right on this story. They did get it right , as almost every story has pointed out , that these were white working class girls from not the best of backgrounds and were seen as not worth the effort of bothering with by some involved. But they seem to have overlooked some facts and aspects for some 'strange' reason.

    I suppose that the Labour mp for Keighley,Ann Cryer must have been lying when she recalled in a BBC documentary filmed in 2012 that she had worked with the families of the victims involved, and had been "round at the police station virtually every week" and was "begging" both the police and social services to do something. Cryer said, "Neither the police nor social services would touch those cases. I think it was they were afraid of being called racist." 'Cryer had attempted to reach the Muslim community and persuade it to take action: "I went to a friend of mine, who was a local councillor and happened to be a Muslim and therefore able to represent me to the elders, because I thought it was a good move to try to get those elders involved. I hoped that I would be able to persuade the elders to go knocking on doors and say 'this behaviour is un-Islamic and I want it to stop because I'm going to tell the whole community about you and what you’re doing if you don’t'. Now they weren’t prepared to do that.

    The councillors who said that they had clear direction from managers not to identify the perpetrators as coming from an ethnic background must also be lying to promote this racist agenda

    British police were still scarred from the Macpherson report of 1999 which was set up following the death of Stephen Lawrence and quite rightly charged them of institutional racism. Following this the police were reluctant to take action that would see such charges directed at them again. Honour crimes etc, were generally not investigated as it was seen as been to culturally sensitive.

    When Mohamed Shafiq from the Ramadhan Foundation in northern England spoke out against the gang rape of white girls by members of his own community he received death threats.

    A story here , from the Independent that reports on the findings of this years research into grooming gangs carried out by the Quilliam Foundation. An anti extremist think tank made up of British - Pakistani activist and researchers , that states that 84% of grooming gang members are Asian -…e-newcastle-a8101941.html

    I deleted my post that I made first thing this morning , I had just woke up with a terrible hangover, dry, grapey tasting mouth and bleary eyed so I couldn't properly read the SWP articles and thought that I should before posting . What I had said was that SWP article was a crock of shit and I still think it is whereas the article that Duckman posted by philosopher and professor Rogerr Scruton is excellent .

    Here's what the lovely Labour mp for Bradford had to say on this issue. She deleted it but someone got a screenshot.


  • Nothing to do with Islam at all. I find it frustrating that people are so uncritical of the media,and the story that they push. It is all distraction.

    First, the grooming gang were British, from Yorkshire. Having brown skin and scary facial hair does not make you Pakistani, even if your grandparents did immigrate from there. Secondly, these predators are unlikely to identify with any religion, but their stated beliefs would have nothing to do with their behaviour anyway, any more than our allegedly Christian government could be said to be doing what they do because they are told to by their stated religion. Thirdly, the children were brown skinned, as well as white skinned, they were easy to groom as they targeted victims, children who were already vulnerable for a variety of reasons. Many of the children had been removed from their homes, and they were seen as criminals and prostitutes by the police. The children complained that the police themselves abused them, before handing them back to the gangs.

    If you think this only happened in Rotherham, and that the police were particularly hopeless/incompetent/whatever, you would be wrong. It is happening all over the country, and as the article I linked pointed out, the police are uninterested in abuse of women and children. They see us as asking for it, and few are willing to look into such crimes.

    Saying that they were afraid of repercussions due to political correctness, was an out and out lie, to cover up their lack of action. The Social Services tried over ten years to get them to do something, but were constantly fobbed off.

    If men bore wings and had black feathers, few would be intelligent enough to be crows.

  • One of my observations, and something that I've had to address myself, is that matters like this are too important to be dealt with from an ideological perspective.

    What I mean is that I agree with diversity and inclusion, I absolutely abhor racism, but egalitarian thinking shouldn't get in the way of dealing with pertinent issues - and one of these issues is that the cultures these people grow up in are often entrenched in misogyny and a way of thinking that doesn't align with the values we have over here -- and as such there is a problem with the values that get imported.

    That doesn't make our values perfect - there is plenty wrong with western culture - but the one thing Europeans are good at is reflecting about what needs to change and where we've got it wrong -- even if progress is slow, at least its progress.

  • Another thing I think worth pondering is that Asian immigrants have experienced a harder time being accepted than other immigrants - they seemed to suffer from way more racist attitudes than (for example) Caribbean immigrants, and as such it's no wonder integration has been so slow.

    If, as a result of racism, you only mix with people from your own background -- with nobody to challenge any previously held values -- then is it any wonder that those values don't change?

  • I think thats a large part of the issue,its not so much Islam is at fault its just a clash of cultures and what each see as acceptable.

    Eastern and Middle Eastern culture sees nothing amiss with arranged marriage,the complete unimportance of womens rights,the 'acceptable' nature (to the culture) of child brides and thus child sex.

    We abore all that but only because our own culture has grown away from those same practices quite some time ago.

    Theres also still the seemingly unsermountable problem of taklingy how police deal with crimes against women,gays and crimes where other races or ethnic groups are involved.

    There still appears to be a strong belief within the police services that women and gays bring attacks on themselves and thus dont warrant taking seriously,no doubt much of that motivated by latent misogyny and homophobia, ive myself directly witnessed that amongst police officers.

    The same goes for institutional racism and the counter-productive counter arguement of not getting involved,sweeping things under carpets so as not to cause political problems and much of that emanates from political directives from local or national level,though theyll never ever admit it.Such policies have allowed these grooming incidents to go on for years and never tackled.

    Even discussing such issues brings the usual polarising of old views and accusations from both sides.

    Until we are as a society capable of discussing it all like adults,its not going to go away.

  • I understand what you are saying, Paul, but as a woman and mother of a daughter, I can tell you that this culture we are living in is entrenched in misogyny too.

    Folk often justify their racism by saying that "they" don't integrate. They don't ever stop to think that "they" are never going to be accepted. It doesn't matter how many generations your family has lived in the UK, you will never be English unless your skin is white.

    I was walking in town with a friend of mine, a Hungarian lady who dresses in saris and other such gorgeous clothes. As we were walking, some fairly small children attracted my attention by shouting, as I thought, my name; "Maggie, Maggie!". I turned to smile at them to see if I knew who they were with, my friend tucked her head down and hurried past. I then realised that these children were actually not calling to me, but shouting, "Paki, Paki". I still hurt inside remembering this. How will those children learn that we are all one? How can my friends who aren't white, bear the constant harassment?

    One of my friends is Sikh, a third generation Londoner. He is a big guy, has loads of facial hair and wears a turban. I have also heard "Paki!" "Rag (or towel) head" and the like shouted at him, too. People are more cautious though as he is big, and looks dangerous. My female friends hate leaving the house because of the casual hatred thrown their way.

    Big love, everyone.

    If men bore wings and had black feathers, few would be intelligent enough to be crows.

  • I understand what you are saying, Paul, but as a woman and mother of a daughter, I can tell you that this culture we are living in is entrenched in misogyny too.

    In some tribal parts of the middle east, gang rape can be dished out as a punishment by the village elders, and as such It's not even remotely comparable.

    I remember visiting Turkey and arguing with my then girlfriend. She stormed off with the hump, only to run back 20 minutes later because she was followed down the road by some guy on a moped. That attitude is not uncommon and almost every woman I know who's travelled to Turkey alone has had problems with guys.

    While I agree that some attitudes needing to catch up, in the UK women generally have equal opportunities under law, which is certainly not the case in the Middle East.

    Folk often justify their racism by saying that "they" don't integrate. They don't ever stop to think that "they" are never going to be accepted. It doesn't matter how many generations your family has lived in the UK, you will never be English unless your skin is white.

    In the case of Asian immigration, the man "the head of the house" will often move here with his entire family, but because of the traditional values there's no expectation for the women to integrate or learn English, and for them it can be quite an isolating experience.

    The values are so far removed to what we understand and accept that it's a no win situation for some people. It's taken a lot longer for Asians to throw off those cultural shackles and to learn to integrate, but I agree, racism certainly hasn't helped matters.

    This is why I think there's a difference to Caribbean immigrants who came here with "christian values" to start with (quotes intended) - and as such could already integrate quite well.

    Historically you could argue that this itself is a problem because western missionaries and slavers introduced them to Christianity -- but this goes some way to explain why working class blacks and whites usually got on much better.

  • Actually Paul, I am old enough to remember the Caribbean immigrants being treated as badly.

    However, I'm bowing out of this thread gracefully, as I find it too painful to keep reading.

    One Love x

    If men bore wings and had black feathers, few would be intelligent enough to be crows.

  • Of course ,yes all distraction.

    Nothing at all to do with Islam a religion that sees a woman's worth as less than that of a man, which in most muslim majority countries says that women should be covered up ( to varying degrees ) so that they do not inflame the lust of men .or in some cases must be accompanied by a male guardian in order to leave the house

    The fact that 84% of members of these grooming gangs are muslim along with the stories that have been coming out of Europe the past few years , relating to sex crimes on women perpetrated by men from muslim majority countries suggest that this just might have something, not everything but something to do with Islam and how it may have some influence on male attitudes to women.

    I believe that in the sixteen cities where these rape gang cases have been brought to light and people, prosecuted all but two of the victims were white girls.

    I do realise it's not just Rotherham , it's happening allover the uk , Newcastle, Sheffield ,Oxford etc .Stories are starting to emerge from Glasgow where the authorities seem unwilling to do anything.

    Of course brown muslim girls are been abused, the writer Shazia Hobbs who is mixed race - white mother , Pakistani father has been writing extensively on this subject .

    Here's a link to a clip of her talking on these issues

    Maajid -

  • people do insist on breeding and indoctrinating the innocents into becoming armies for ignorant and abrasive causes.

    Some causes are the opposite of spawning and indoctrination.

    We are all stupid and fucked up and ignorant. Breeding more people and insisting they can only be slightly less fucked up than the previous generation is the sad equilibrium that human evolution has arrived at.

    Culture shock!

  • Actually Paul, I am old enough to remember the Caribbean immigrants being treated as badly.

    Me too, but I still think integration has been a lot easier than it has been for Asian immigrants.

    Maajid -

    I listened to Maajid Nawaz on LBC for a long time before learning of his track record and history -- it's voices like his that are vitally important to stop these debates being engulfed in ideology and racism.