Does Your Animal Companion Love You or Pavlov?

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  • Earl will fly to my shoulder and beak my ear gently , he gets scritches in return which causes him to make cute puppy mewling noises whilst bobbing his head and down to chuck up some pre-chewed seed as a present <X


    Seems like reasonably affectionate behaviour to me ?

  • Pavlov was a nasty bastard. That's all the words i'll waste on him.


    Anyone with sense and compassion, and who has/had a 4 legged companion, knows that they are capable of the same feelings as a 2 legged animal; they just show it in a more natural way.

    All animals are different, with different personalities; but most are better than those who walk on 2 legs!

    Thank you for the quote. I'm aware of Ivan Pavlov. I'm also aware of the fact that Pavlov didn't win the Nobel prize for Physiology or Medicine in 1904 for classical conditioning, which he discovered by accident.


    But why would any dog 'love' Pavlov - what I mean't was the thread title was a bit weird to start with? Or are we simply a comparison, such as Harlow's woolly 'mothers' versus the wire 'mothers'.....


    In response to your comment about him being a 'nasty bastard'; through the ages from 1904, this would mean that quite a few scientists will have been relegated to the 'nasty bastard' category...including Harlow.


    I suspect Pavlov is so often 'got wrong' - psychology books with cute pics of dogs, bells and food bowls. It can come as a shock when you realise it wasn't ...er.. like that.


    I actually agree with Prof. Noel Fitzgerald that if you are going to test a drug on an animal test on a sick animal rather than generate disease in a healthy animal. The pharmaceutical industry needs to liaise with the veterinary industry, hell they already make their drugs!

    He made a comment that if you had a pet that was sick and you were offered a trial drug as a chance, what would you do?

    When Bill had cancer both my husband and I agree we would have tried the drug, he was only ten, he might still be here.


    This is worth a watch - I appreciate the man tends to be like Marmite. I love the stuff...and could make dubious suggestions.




    also...


    boring scientific paper....


    https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/50/10/861/233998


    or ...

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Dogs-Love-Neuroscientist-Hardcover/dp/B00M0KUU80


    Enjoy...

  • Have said it before and will say it again


    " There is no such thing as a bad dog - there is only a bad owner"


    A good owner is more likely to receive more love from their four legged friend than an arsehole who does not respect them. And rightfully so.

    Whereas a bad owner may get obedience,but not with the same amount of love and friendship.


    Be a good owner or dont be one xx

  • But why would any dog 'love' Pavlov - what I mean't was the thread title was a bit weird to start with?

    The thread title was meant as....is your dogs love or affection simply a conditioned response re Pavlov, or is that love or affection towards you stand alone adoration.

    To quantify love in any species including humans tends to be down to personal perception in any case.I know full well, having shared life over very many years with many non humans that giving love and or deep affection is not exclusive to humans,but does seem to be influenced by awareness and intelligence.Of all the ones I have shared life with the depth of interaction and intelligence has varied as individuals do.The human arrogance that awareness,love and intelligence is exclusive to humans. I find judgemental,egocentric and shallow.

    Noel is enthusiastic and innovative.He does try his best to turn around desperate situations.I wonder at what cost owners cling to their animal companions though.It would be interesting to see follow ups a year or two later. The cost is not mentioned either.The experimental skeletal inserts and adaptations inserted to assist with life after catastrophic injury or disease will end up in humans soon no doubt.What is going on medically nowadays is incredible.

    I also would have welcomed a trial drug as a last resort with my old girl.Age needs be factored in though,along with prolonging suffering .

  • A similar question to one that was put to Paul by ..I think it was AW....


    If the crunch came to it and you were in need of medical intervention from drugs, operative procedures - none of which we have without animal testing; would you point blank refuse?



    If you think Prof. Fitzpatrick's 'heart is in the right place', but 'all i could think about was how many of those people who love their dog, would go home and eat the flesh of another animal!' - a statistic that you do not know in truth.


    I apologise for raking out a scientific paper that was 'quite old'X/

    ... to be honest - come up with a more recent one on the same subject rather that be critical.

    Or possibly point out where the data had been surpassed by more recent work...

    ......or do you just assume that anything that isn't bang up to date has been surpassed.


    Wow.......:D


    I hope this is more recent it is a piece written about a book by a bioethicist regarding our pet keeping habits. Maybe we should think a bit more about whether they are happy it seems.

    https://www.thecut.com/2016/07/ethics-of-pet-keeping.html

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E18OR2S[]c2[p]ciqv5b2lx000e1ay6x85fwfnu[i]SlYUoq[z]m[d]D[r]google.co.uk&tag=thecutonsite-20#nav-subnav


    And yeah, I like Noel Fitzpatrick's ethos. Making the comment regarding the video about lifestyle choices that people make is petty when holistically the trust is working towards something that is of mutual benefit.


    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1477750917738110


    Rock on! You Prof. Fitzpatrick you did write a scientific paper about love.

  • Sorry Daisysmum I havent be able to read the links or watch the video .Your [point about saving a hound then eating a steak is spot on.Emotional interaction and attachment being the only difference I can fathom.Though if someone fancied eating several humans I can think of, I would not stop them.I also notice how many vegetarians wear leather shoes and lipstick.:)

  • Apologies for not replying sooner, but i only saw this now.


    When you talk about the crunch, what do you mean? If you're talking about cancer, then no, i definately would not take any drugs. I haven't taken any antibiotics or paracetamol or whatever for many years either.

    I went through 7yrs of the menopause without help.


    You're right, i don't have any 'statistics' on the comment i made, but i'm probably more right than wrong!


    I have no reason or want, to come up with any scientific paper. You linked yours, i read it, and commented. That's what happens.

  • Sorry Daisysmum I havent be able to read the links or watch the video .Your [point about saving a hound then eating a steak is spot on.Emotional interaction and attachment being the only difference I can fathom.Though if someone fancied eating several humans I can think of, I would not stop them.I also notice how many vegetarians wear leather shoes and lipstick.:)

    Vegetarians just don't eat meat. They still wear leather and lipstick. I'm Vegan and i wear lipstick. What's wrong with lipstick?

  • Vegetarians just don't eat meat. They still wear leather and lipstick. I'm Vegan and i wear lipstick. What's wrong with lipstick?

    look at the ingredients.cows feet were used.I dont know if they still are.You made me think about that .I will check that out......yes just checked.Look at PAINT IT BLACK....A GUIDE TO VEGAN BEAUTY...and tallow also used in the new UK paper money.

  • You went through the menopause unmediated - Brava!


    Cancer?! what a limited imagination you have.


    Say for example you woke with idiopathic primary generalised epilepsy.

    The seizures that you take aren't frequent enough, they are generalised and idiopathic therefore surgery isn't an option.

    However, if they are uncontrolled the seizures and the sub-clinical discharges will affect your memory, attention, and cognition.

    Oh yeah and there is SUDEP.

    Would you like meds.....?

    And before you try and vegan keto your way out of this....


    Most people who are on diets or who have had surgery are still on meds to a degree but to far less a degree.


    Happy to find another medical condition if you don't want mine. I know lots.


    You commented on the paper in a critical fashion but gave no basis for your criticism e.g. another scientific paper, therefore your criticism of the age of my paper is unfounded.

    That's what happens.


    You have no stats you say, but you are ready to condemn other animal lovers in that video who have no doubt made some sort of personal sacrifice for their pets welfare as Fitzgerald's aren't a first stops for medical care but somewhere you are referred to.


    I'm with Professor Fitzpatrick. I don't care what those people eat, I don't care what you eat. You can't back up half of what you say.


    These developments are benefiting animals and will one day benefit us.


    You seem so sure of so much, but what you present as a basis for your certainty seems quite flimsy.


    Incidently, I know someone who refused treatment for cancer. I'm selfish enough to wish they had taken the drugs because I don't think anything could have been worse than what the fucking cancer did to Dad.

  • It's interesting that the question about love created such strong emotions, even in a small discussion group - it demonstrates well how complex and powerful the emotion of love is. Some people spend their lifetime trying to encapture the emotion in poetry and art.


    However you describe or innately feel love it seems grossly arrogant and naïve to assume that other animals don't feel or exhibit a similar emotion. I have a great respect for science but at present it doesn't have the ability to explain everything there is to know. A few hundred years ago it was scientific fact that black swans didn't exist...


    From an evolutionary perspective it might be the reason certain species survived - the ability to have a deep bond to your family unit that ensures safety and survival.


    I know that sometimes my two cats will sit on me because they're cold and other times it's because they want love and affection. I love my cats and I'm pretty sure they love me in return. No one else might believe me but it doesn't really matter as for me that is enough.

  • There was a interesting discussion on radio 4 today. Do insects feel pain? Is it cruel to kill insects for research purposes? Apparently if you open up the stomach of a cockroach, the cockroach will eat it’s own stomach contents while dying. A grass hopper will continue to feed while being eaten alive by a praying mantis.

  • There was a interesting discussion on radio 4 today. Do insects feel pain? Is it cruel to kill insects for research purposes? Apparently if you open up the stomach of a cockroach, the cockroach will eat it’s own stomach contents while dying. A grass hopper will continue to feed while being eaten alive by a praying mantis.

    Are you then saying that a being that is oblivious to pain and discomfort,or at least seemingly so is unlikely to form any sort of affectionate bond?I have never had an animal companion like that,but it reminds me of a couple of males i knew.:D

  • Are you then saying that a being that is oblivious to pain and discomfort,or at least seemingly so is unlikely to form any sort of affectionate bond?I have never had an animal companion like that,but it reminds me of a couple of males i knew.:D

    I’m saying there was an interesting programme on radio 4 today. It was really questioning our attitudes to animals and insects. Are insects sentient, if we believe they may be, then it’s strange how we treat them. Point In question was this Jungle TV personality game show “get me out of here” is it right to force celebrities to eat grubs on camera and for what purpose? To make the viewer squeal? The make the competitor sick? If the game involved biting the head off a red squirrel instead of a large maggot, would it be any different? One of guests on the radio were a British scientist who had been criticised for running the national wasp survey, where they asked members of the public to catch, kill and post in wasps from around the Country for research. The recommended method of execution was to place wasps in a deep freezer after attracting them with a sugary soft drink.


    At what point do we assume a life form is capable of the emotion love? Or feeling pain in this case.

  • Don't you worry about my limited imagination. I'm happy with it.

    No, i don't want your medical condition or to hear about anymore. Thanks for offering though.

    Pardon me for picking the chronic medical condition that springs to mind most readily.

    I note that when things got stickier you dodged the issue of whether you would take the drugs, which was the side issue we had been derailed onto, you simply made me out to be a bore regarding my own condition.

    No you don't want to have it or anything else where you were between a rock and well....pharmacology for options.


    I don't care about your imagination. There doesn't appear to be much of it to care about.

    You can't even come up with an answer to a question relevant to an issue which you appear to hold strong enough views on, respecting our fellow creatures.

    In fact you will readily condemn anyone based on supposition rather than making an effort to seek out evidence - I'm going by your own words.

    Quote

    You're right, i don't have any 'statistics' on the comment i made, but i'm probably more right than wrong!


    I have no reason or want, to come up with any scientific paper.

    So far from your ability to dodge questions and make suppositions based on no evidence I'd say you should probably go into politics.

  • :handbags:........:)

  • Listen, i'm finding this whole conversation very boring.

    I don't take pharmaceutical drugs and i have no intention of ever taking them.

    End of story. Toodlepip.

  • you don't ride motorbikes

    The biggest one I had was a CB750 so you can eat dirt pyro pyke.:snub: Not my favourite though.I gloried in being one with the metal beasties.I know the plate still of the one I was extremely attached to and regret forever letting it go. When a tosser wanted to get one up on the girlie on a bigger bike than him, by messing with the caps ,plugs and chain to get one up on me.I waited till he was too pissed to move and took his whole LP faves with me up North and gave them away.:wave:Ha ha ha.Still think of his face when he found that out.Bitch out of Hell;:DEvery spoke was polished.:love:But the only wink i ever got was from the chrome,no feedback or interaction so no I did not have a relationship based on mutual exchange etc.All I got back was what I put in that was all.

  • It is possible to love a motorcycle without it reciprocated, some of the bikes I've had were machines and some I have loved. Some have shown me there love by keeping me alive when I've been riding past my abilities and skills.

    I am a not point saying the bike sits in a shed all winter missing me, waiting on better weather so we can be reunited again.

  • you don't ride motorbikes

    That doesnt mean the love is reciprocated. I had a gixxer rat (one of many) flat black, drag bars, no plastics etc. Loved that bike but it was a bastard - kept trying to kill me.


    It would ride fine and quick all weathers, apart from every now and again in a corner it would drop to 3 pots then back to 4 and try to fling you off - only in a corner left or right so no pattern and very intermittant! New coils, new leads, carb rubbers, etc etc nothing ever cured it.


    Worst thing was it could go weeks, it was just as you were forgetting about it that the bastard would do it again!

  • I had a Guzzi 500 which I didn't like to start with. Interesting electrics and about 27 false neutral gears. Once I got the hang of it's quirks though, I loved it. It looked like a bag of spanners but was like shit off a stick, and the tyres appeared to be glued to the road.


    I was gutted when some twat stole it and burnt it out, just about a quarter mile from home.

  • It is possible to love a motorcycle without it reciprocated, some of the bikes I've had were machines and some I have loved. Some have shown me there love by keeping me alive when I've been riding past my abilities and skills.

    I am a not point saying the bike sits in a shed all winter missing me, waiting on better weather so we can be reunited again.

    The bike kept you alive BECAUSE OF your abilities and skills.if it had not been well maintained it would of let you down when maxed out.Seems like you actually hope it is pining for you all winter in the shed?Fair weather rider hey?:DIts inert,stopped,ceased,until you put the key in again and kick it over.Does it reach out to you in your dreams?:)

  • That doesnt mean the love is reciprocated. I had a gixxer rat (one of many) flat black, drag bars, no plastics etc. Loved that bike but it was a bastard - kept trying to kill me.


    It would ride fine and quick all weathers, apart from every now and again in a corner it would drop to 3 pots then back to 4 and try to fling you off - only in a corner left or right so no pattern and very intermittant! New coils, new leads, carb rubbers, etc etc nothing ever cured it.


    Worst thing was it could go weeks, it was just as you were forgetting about it that the bastard would do it again!

    typical female.:D