Animal agriculture UK 2016

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  • ...or indeed, any sentient being).


    I ask these questions as a vegetarian of long-standing.


    Rats are sentient and there are more rats on this planet than humans, should we be eating them as a method of control and also in order to reduce the developed world's insatiable appetite for industrially produced meat and, at the same time, provide a valuable protein source for folk in the under-developed nations? What about locusts or anything destructive including deer and rabbits but not ;) humans ?!?!?!


    Guinea Pigs are a food staple in South America, particularly in the Andes where they originate, how come we in the West keep them as pets and think it's not OK to eat them?


    Is it OK to run drug tests/trials on animals? If not, how are they to be tested before releasing them for human use? Maybe we should run the tests only on the people on Death Rows around the world? If they complete 5 years of trials without it killing them, they get a pardon and are released back into society??? :eek:


    Where is the line in the sand that says this "thing" that breathes is sentient and this one is not?


    I wish this (ab)use of animals question had an equitable answer but, in my opinion, it never will have because even if the world eats laboratory grown meat what will we do with the few animals of all species that will be kept in zoos, private collections and in the wild. They will need to be husbanded to make sure they don't die out or outgrow their allotted space. What will we do with them when they are too old to be self-sustaining and what do we do with the animals that need to be culled because there are too many of them. Will they all be sold for consumption in specialist restaurants to the rich and the famous who will, arguably, be the only ones to afford such exotic fare?


    Whatever the "solution", sentient animals will have to be killed and we will certainly not just compost them, not when there is money to be made - even if the money goes back into a fund to maintain that status quo.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • most people that get on their high horse about farming and country life live in the big cities and don't have a clue what they are talking about, most have no idea about farming practises or land management or even that there are different types of land.

  • most people that get on their high horse about farming and country life live in the big cities and don't have a clue what they are talking about, most have no idea about farming practises or land management or even that there are different types of land.


    I hate it when I have to say I agree with you Haggers :thumbup:

  • It wasn't the sheep that created the desert , it was the human that put them there , sheep can play a very important part in managing wild life meadows . We are contractors to the local meadow organisation with our sheep !


    Deer and sheep are a useful tool to keep uplands deforested and in a constant state of unnatural un-climax community. Sheep should be brought down from the hills. Yes it's poor land for any other farming practice and useless for farmed arable crops. Sheep by the very nature of their eating/chewing method and preferred diet. This along with being light footed make sheep a excellent choice for cleaning up and fertilising grassland inc meadows, only if they are temporary grazing as in flying flock. Over grassing by sheep is also detrimental to species diversity within a area.

  • Deer and sheep are a useful tool to keep uplands deforested and in a constant state of unnatural un-climax community. Sheep should be brought down from the hills. Yes it's poor land for any other farming practice and useless for farmed arable crops. Sheep by the very nature of their eating/chewing method and preferred diet. This along with being light footed make sheep a excellent choice for cleaning up and fertilising grassland inc meadows, only if they are temporary grazing as in flying flock. Over grassing by sheep is also detrimental to species diversity within a area.


    Yes,our sheep do their duty october to march , which suits us very well as it rests our own fields over the winter , while the grass is slow growing.

  • but townies cant stand the idea of culling "Bambie" do they? they just have no concept of the overgrazing and damage they cause to the natural environment through overbreeding, most have TB but that is never mentioned either.

  • I thought they reintroduced wolves to the highlands several years ago, or didn't that come off??

  • It's always amazing how everyone hates the idea of animal suffering, until it comes to adjusting their own behaviour -- when that happens they'd rather find arguments to justify or excuse it.


    Would you please expand on this for me/us as I, for one, am not sure exactly which posts/aspects you are alluding to? TQVM

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • Would you please expand on this for me/us as I, for one, am not sure exactly which posts/aspects you are alluding to? TQVM


    no me neither, I was wondering where that one came from.

  • It's always amazing how everyone hates the idea of animal suffering, until it comes to adjusting their own behaviour -- when that happens they'd rather find arguments to justify or excuse it.


    I eat meat which I enjoy as part of my diet, I am fully aware of the implications . I make no excuses or arguments to justify eating meat.

  • Would you please expand on this for me/us as I, for one, am not sure exactly which posts/aspects you are alluding to? TQVM

    There is no need for any human living in the west to consume animal products - so the only reason people do it is for fun or for convenience - yes some people think there is a health reason, but that's usually because they haven't thoroughly investigated alternatives.


    When people use words like humane slaughter, or talk about how people outside the countryside don't understand, or say how their lives would be dull without meat, or bundle deliberate harm with unavoidable harm -- well they're all ways of justifying animal exploitation without considering the harm it is doing.


    Everyone claims to hate animal cruelty, but that often stops when it involves adjusting their own behaviour - and yet there is no ethical way to breed a creature for the sake of killing it for the way it tastes - I'm pretty sure they don't want to die - and considering that animal products are completely unnecessary for a healthy life, the only reason to partake in this is for palate pleasure.


    Animal agriculture causes suffering - animals can think, feel, sense and suffer. Animal agriculture is the biggest cause of climate change, species extinction, loss of biodiversity, ocean dead zones, deforestation, and is also a massive contributor to world hunger in humans -- there is no ethical way to consume animal products if you have the choice not to.


    People typically make it about themselves rather than the victims.


    Saying you don't care, well that's honest, but saying you do care, followed by "reasons", seems a bit off.

  • so speaks a typical vegetarian, funny how its always vegetarians arguing about meat eaters and not the other way around.
    I get fed up of people telling me how I should live, what I should eat and how I should behave.

  • so speaks a typical vegetarian, funny how its always vegetarians arguing about meat eaters and not the other way around.
    I get fed up of people telling me how I should live, what I should eat and how I should behave.


    Does that make me a non-typical vegetarian then? I asked quite a few questions back in post 91 and no-one, vegetarian or otherwise, has chosen to respond.


    I'll ask a similar, single question. Why should we introduce predators to deal with, for example, deer when they need culling rather than allowing people to kill and eat them?


    Sorry, have to ask another question. Is it really kinder for sentient animals to starve to death or be torn to pieces by a predator in order to keep nature in balance rather than have humans quickly cull/kill/murder and eat them?


    The fact that I choose to be a vegetarian doesn't mean that anyone else has to be.


    All I would ask is, if you are going to consume anything with a face, make sure that it is the best quality you can afford rather than working on the basis that even though the supermarket is selling it at 99p a kilo it must be good and safe or they wouldn't be allowed to sell it.


    Even as a vegetarian, I would rather pay twice as much for half the quantity and know I'm consuming quality than buy stuff just 'cause it's cheap.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • All I would ask is, if you are going to consume anything with a face, make sure that it is the best quality you can afford rather than working on the basis that even though the supermarket is selling it at 99p a kilo it must be good and safe or they wouldn't be allowed to sell it.


    I fully agree, search out organic free range. Red tractor is bullshit.

  • i have always been a meat eater, and I will be a meat eater until the day I die, I like meat and I like the taste of meat, SIL is a so called vegetarian and she eats so much veg i'm not surprised she had digestion and bowel problems, and she's not the only one we know.
    my problem is not with vegetarians as such, my problem is modern meal portions, they are huge and of American size portions and I think we all know how big some Americans are! I have always said we need " a taste not a feast".
    we try to access meat and other products from local suppliers rather than the big multi nationals. we occasionally get Venison when it is available and if the herds need culling I think the meat should be available to the general public and not simply got rid of.

  • i have always been a meat eater, and I will be a meat eater until the day I die, I like meat and I like the taste of meat, SIL is a so called vegetarian and she eats so much veg i'm not surprised she had digestion and bowel problems, and she's not the only one we know.


    Interesting because my experience is the other way around. Quantity of veg is generally unlikely to be a problem, although some veggies (baked beans for example) have a reputation for causing bloating and noisome gases for veggies and non-veggies alike. ;)


    Ignoring the signs that something doesn't agree with your digestive tract is certainly asking for digestion and bowel challenges, whatever type of diet you have.


    In our household we have no such challenges, everything functions extremely well and our gastrocolic reflex is very well tuned - thank you. :eek:

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • so speaks a typical vegetarian, funny how its always vegetarians arguing about meat eaters and not the other way around.
    I get fed up of people telling me how I should live, what I should eat and how I should behave.

    I'm not vegetarian, I'm vegan - vegetarians are also involved in exploiting animals, although arguably to a lesser extent.


    I'm also not telling you how to live - my concern isn't for me, it's for the animals - and the decision to take part in a debate, in the animal rights/welfare section of this website, was entirely your choice.


  • I hate factory farming, hence I am a freerangertarian. I have seen feral pigs and they are cantankerous, viscous animals. If i was a pig I would much rather be a free range domestic pig where I had a guaranteed supply of food and water. When I am dead, as part of the circle of life I want my corpse turned into blood & bones fertilizer. Bits of dead animals are used extensively in industry such brake fluid is made from dead cattle.The list goes on.

  • What about fertilizer used to grow vegan food? There is chemical fertilizer derived from crude oil or there is organic fertilizer derived from animals.

  • Brake fluid, you never stop learning. :beard:


    Well after all the fuss about animal fat in £5 notes, straight question why no complaints about the brake fluid.


    Interesting to see what animal products are in what and maybe worthy of a thread to list all the 'unthought of products' containing them. I somehow don't think vegans are going to stop driving and upon learning about the brake fluid I wonder just how many are actually checking what's in their car.
    https://books.google.co.uk/boo…n%20brake%20fluid&f=false

  • Can't edit the last post for some reason but if the link that I've posted is true, just how many vegans are going to give up their cars or bicycles, poly bags, musical instruments ect ect
    http://www.treehugger.com/gree…d-animal-ingredients.html
    I doff my hat to not to just anyone who does but those that endeavour to. It must be really hard.

  • I'm not vegetarian, I'm vegan - vegetarians are also involved in exploiting animals, although arguably to a lesser extent.


    I'm also not telling you how to live - my concern isn't for me, it's for the animals - and the decision to take part in a debate, in the animal rights/welfare section of this website, was entirely your choice.


    unlike those that live in the big cities I live in farming country and I see what goes on at first hand.