Animal agriculture UK 2016

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  • Dogs are carnivores. Their dentition and digestive systems are those of carnivores. I get fed up of arguing this, even with vets, who presumably learn about biological systems during their training, but will call dogs omnivores, presumably because pet industry companies and the like pay for training and holidays; sorry, I mean seminars in holiday locations and therefore expect the rubbish they sell to be pushed as healthful.


    Wild dogs will scavenge and eat what is available, but their primary diet is hunted and killed. They eat the stomach and contents first, which is the most veggie part of their diet, and will pick and eat some berries in season. This does not make them omnivorous, mostly vegetation is taken to make them vomit and clear their systems. Other scavenged food is taken if they cannot get by on what they have hunted.


    I am speaking as someone who has long studied anatomy and zoological systems, and am old enough to remember dogs being fed meat and table scraps, until the pet industry discovered that waste cereal products could be repackaged as dog and cat food. To hell with the damage it does to the animal, and again, I am speaking as someone who held my dog's stomach open with forceps when the vet had to do an emergency operation to remove the soya chunks designed to look like meat. There was no time to arrange for an anaesthesist so he had to operate on her using local anaesthetic, with me as assistant.


    I'm vegan, my dogs are not.

  • What about working dogs, Police dogs, bomb squad, rescue, guide dogs, helper dogs. Should vegetarianisum be all there is for them? or force them onto the more extreme vegan diet too? Or remove them from service, not breed them for purpose?


    If we need to base this on morals and ethics, avoiding exploitation or cruelty there really shouldn't be any exceptions.

    My own personal take is that there is no ethical use of animals, and that includes all service dogs, riding horses or buying pets from breeders. The only ethical ownership of animals is for rescue; when we treat them as "refugees" from human intervention and don't impose any expectations on them.


    We wouldn't enslave humans to do dangerous work or breed them to be slaves for the disabled -- so it's partly a matter of economics that prevents us from paying people handsomely (or developing robots) to do the same thing. Of course, if you're blind and presented with this option you'd be hard pressed to turn it down, but it's still a part of the same ethos that makes it OK to use animals because they're somehow less important than us.


    The majority of animal abuse happens in the food, clothing and ingredients industry, then it's vivisection and then sports and entertainment -- the issues of other exploitation still need addressing, but in the grand scheme of things this is a bit of a diversion away from the more urgent issues.

  • Impossing your beliefs on a animal is not really fair , dogs are omnivores though and do not need meat , though left to their own devices would like it , cats are carnivores and need meat for nutritional needs.

    We have been imposing our beliefs on animals for over ten thousand years - the domestication of animals is a result of this, so there's not really any nature left now -- we took away their agency over their own lives a long time ago, so all we can do now is try to clean up the mess through neutering, legislating against breeding and educating people on how much damage our companion animals can do.


    Dogs do not need to eat meat, and most of the time they adapt to a vegan diet pretty well -- bearing in mind that most people feed their dogs an appalling diet of processed junk anyway. I've seen plenty of happy, healthy vegan dogs who thrive without meat, after all, they are opportunistic scavengers and can eat pretty much anything.


    Cats can potentially thrive on a vegan diet, even as obligate carnivores, but only if special attention is given to ingredients such as taurine. Not all cats take to this, and of course they will hunt their own food, but if you're a vegan who keeps cats (or any animal), then it makes sense to at least investigate the available options rather than continuing to justify the trade you're otherwise opposed to.


    Obviously nobody would or should kill their pet, but on a purely logical, unemotional basis, keeping companion animals is a destructive pastime.

  • i don't think we should be forcing a human diet-vegan or otherwise- on animals, dogs especially were bred down from wolves and they are definitely carnivores, but dogs will eat anything they find from meat to other animals droppings.

  • i don't think we should be forcing a human diet-vegan or otherwise- on animals, dogs especially were bred down from wolves and they are definitely carnivores, but dogs will eat anything they find from meat to other animals droppings.

    We force everything onto pets anyway, they haven't had agency over their own lives for thousands of years. We've deforested the natural landscape, bred our own species and fetishised animals as our companions - they are already dependent on us for their food, shelter and medicine, and as such we're not talking about wild animals. Changing their diet or neutering is an ethical and healthy attempt at reversing several millennia of damage.

  • trouble is said diet is nowhere close to "healthy" nor is it cheap in some cases. I always fed my dogs on dog "sausage" 3 dogs had one third each plus some mixer and that at least came close to healthy but the modern "complete" dog food is full of chemicals and crap, I think this stuff is what makes modern puppies hyper.

  • The truth is that the human population is too much for earth, if we didn't eat meat then the planet would be stripped of all other food sources. And we don't have field space to replace this, along with the ever growing populations housing needs. I'm sure the government are aware of this and will probably blow up a country or two to use for farming but maybe I'm going too deep. Anyhow I found the video quite disturbing myself, i could never work in such places.


    First up, I agree that we have too many people on the planet but I am at a loss as to how they can be fairly controlled??


    If I understand you correctly that no meat would mean we couldn't grow enough food crops to feed folk, then I think that if you check your information you will find out you are some way from the truth.


    Whilst it is impossible to grow all crops on all sorts of land, it is worth noting that it takes 7 to 10kg of "vegetable animal feed" to produce just 1kg of edible meat!! [Whilst that can be called inefficient conversion, the animal output in the way of faeces and urine is far from inefficient and, in itself, a real and growing problem. Don't get me started on what happens to all the guts and 'useless' bits.]


    Don't know about you but eating 7 to 10kg of veggies would take me much longer than eating a kilo of meat and would sustain life for longer too.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • some of the land wont grow crops, its too low grade, the only thing it will grow is grass and that means animals.

  • Well I am sticking with my belief dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores , and this belief is endorsed by my partner who is a veterinary surgeon of over 25 years and works as a referral surgeon at a large veterinary hospital where they spend much of their time removing foreign body from creatures stomachs.:beard:

  • dogs are still carnivores, but they are also opportunists and will eat whatever crosses their path, I suppose that makes them scavengers.

  • some of the land wont grow crops, its too low grade, the only thing it will grow is grass and that means animals.


    Agree with all but the last 4 words! :whistle:Why do we have to do anything with it except grow grass?

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • Agree with all but the last 4 words! :whistle:Why do we have to do anything with it except grow grass?


    because that is the only thing it will grow, like around here, its solid clay and any plant dies as soon as its roots hit the clay, grass and hay is the only thing the land will grow.

  • whats that got to do with animal agriculture, pets aren't agricultural animals, unless its a working dog or similar and then it still isn't a pet.

  • As a general rule, if it sleeps on the bed its a pet. :whistle:


    The horse sleeps on bedding in its stable , so I guess that makes it a pet , but the ram doesnt , but I still consider him a pet as was hand reared and used to come in the house and watch telly when he was little , but now he stays in the field as a companion to our working ram :beard:

  • There is enough land on this planet suitable for arable farming - but most of the food grown is diverted to feeding animals. If we all stopped breeding and eating animals it would make a lot of land suitable for feeding humans.


    It's a total myth to think that farm animals are all grazing happily away on green pastures - the planet couldn't sustain that if it tried.


    I seriously recommend Cowspiracy for anyone interested in facts and figures about the scale of animal agriculture and the environmental destruction it causes. It's not just an animal rights issue.

  • There is enough land on this planet suitable for arable farming - but most of the food grown is diverted to feeding animals. If we all stopped breeding and eating animals it would make a lot of land suitable for feeding humans.


    It's a total myth to think that farm animals are all grazing happily away on green pastures - the planet couldn't sustain that if it tried.


    I seriously recommend Cowspiracy for anyone interested in facts and figures about the scale of animal agriculture and the environmental destruction it causes.



    Sheep are , but cannot be bothered to argue .

  • Mutton ain't babies and they get to live in places most humans would die for ;)

    Lamb, I believe, is slaughtered between 1 month and 1 year old. The natural lifespan of a sheep can be up to about 14 years -- I doubt very much "mutton" gets to live out its entire life undisturbed.


    If I had the choice between living where I am now, or being killed prematurely in return for a nice view of the countryside, well I know where I'd be happier.

  • Lamb, I believe, is slaughtered between 1 month and 1 year old. The natural lifespan of a sheep can be up to about 14 years -- I doubt very much "mutton" gets to live out its entire life undisturbed.


    If I had the choice between living where I am now, or being killed prematurely in return for a nice view of the countryside, well I know where I'd be happier.



    1o-12 years actually , 1 month slaughter ! no way in the uk or most countries ,weight is the dollar , Spain yes as a specialised dish . Lamb by definition is up to 1 year , then becomes Hoggart ,, 2 years become mutton, All definened by teeth developement. Boys will get taken out young unless for breeding , but not like boy chickens in the egg industry, who will be anialated at hatching :(
    Mutton usually comes from ewes that are getting old.
    I could nt live in a very biult up area because I never have , but thats just me , I need space and fresh air, I would get claustrophobia , maybe i am a sheep ?