Entitlement to care from one's fellow human being.

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  • The NHS pot is not big enough to cover all needs and every day more and more come to it to help their plight or the plight of loved ones. Without bringing politics into it, please keep it on a pure thought and from the heart, just what do you think should be done for.......


    People who abuse their bodies from alcohol


    People who abuse their bodies from eating badly, i.e.- the grossly overweight who want gastric bands or are so fat they have made themselves incapable of work


    People who've abused themselves from taking drugs


    People who've abused themselves from smoking


    People from abroad doing NHS tourism and looking to get free care at the UKs expense


    There's an ever decreasing number of peeps who put money into the NHS pot and it doesn't cover all needs of UK citizens.


    Please, without bringing politics into it, what are your views on the cases stated. Should they be catered for at the expense of the working man and his family and to what extent or should they be left to rot as after all, it's self inflicted or just stealing from those who've helped make the NHS carry on...............or is it.

  • For the first four categories the Chinese Work Cure would no doubt be eminently suitable, except that it isn't politically correct at the moment:whistle:.
    For the fifth, tourism should be bringing money into the country, not taking it out, so we'd have to put a stop to all that sort of thing, of course:reddevil:. Roll on Brexit, What?


    There, managed to do it without politics, Eh?

  • IMO If youre going to have an NHS then it should be there to cater for all UK citizens and those EU citizens with a reciprocal.healthcare arrsmgement with the UK...And regardless of the cause of illness..'self inflicted' or otherwise...I dont include NHS tourists in that.(those not ligitimate UKor EU citizens unless its emergency care that cannot be avoided.
    Where do you draw the line of 'self inflicted' ?people who smoke and drink and eat too much you say...what then of mentallly ill people who attempt suicide or precription drug addicts..or people who get sexually transmitted diseases or people who routinely take parti n high risk sports ?



    You cant raise these questions without making it political as its the politics that force the raising of these ugly choice scenarios. Theres no reason for the health service to be a lottery and only accord treatment to those deemed worthy of treatment.The NHS is deliberately starved of funds for political reasons and were it funded properly there should be no need to single groups out for non treatment or scapegoating of them.
    The problem doesnt exist in other EU countries (except possibly Greece because theyre bankrupt ) because they properly fund their health provision .We could have the best care system.in the world but the government chooses not to allow that to be free at point of use so systematically starves it to failure.

  • First of all,if unemployment is at its lowest for many years, them there's many paying national insurance contributions. The price of new and continued (high cost) drugs needs to be addressed. I think that those pharma companies although they invest heavily and it can take ten years for a drug to get to market. Get far to long on a sole licence to sell these new drugs. The cost of some prescription drugs is frightening. sometimes costing many £thousands per month to prescribe to even one individual patient. Hence the Lottery. If a drug is too expensive for patients in say Blackpool, then it's too expensive for any other location in the UK.
    Regarding those who self abuse, there is a system in place based on safety of patient and likelihood of success of treatment, plus risk. Being too fat or likelihood of continuing to drink alcohol does determine the availability outcome. However, anyone can make a poor lifestyle choice and one mans poison may not be the next mans. Since our government and big business is behind tobacco and alcohol manufacture and supply including collecting Tax revenue. I think the government is partially responsible and is trying hard to change public behaviour, it's too late and together all are responsible.
    So all cases should be treated with respect. The sugar tax is only the start of the fight to reduce obesity. Over consumption is a real problem and if the fashion industry standard model image and the media portrayal of healthy bodies can't get the message over, food prices may need to be increased and this will unfairly effect everyone. So education, further support considered to help achieve control and penalties may need to be introduced for those unwilling to comply. If a gastric bypass can reduce the overhaul weight of a person and then help prevent further health related issues, this should be offered accross the care system. If a patient is faced with paying for the cost of treatment inc any operations should they continue to over eat or consume large amounts if alcohol, this could deter the patient from even having the treatment.


    Regarding health tourism, this is just so wrong. It's just theft. No different from any person booking in to see the top consultalts or health specialists anywhere in the world privately, having the treatment and walking away without paying the bill. If it's not garenteed payment recovery from Country of the patients Origen. Then basic emergency cover, minimal diagnostics and immediate deportation to Country of Origen should be the policy. The only exception is for all children and those injured (not at fault) by a third party in the UK.
    Discourage A & E visits for trivial none emergency treatments. I read some NHS bumf that it costs approximately £138 for every person who walks through the doors at A & E.


    scraap the trident and many other silly nuclear weapon investments, use that money to provide care.

  • costs £ 138 per person, so how much does it cost if no one walks through the door ? ie,cost of running the department wages electricity etc tis like the police, tis said it costs x amount of pounds to police a demo, but surely the police and nurses still have to be paid regardless

  • The only thing I would add to the above is a more 'joined up' service between GP's services and the hospital. People are having to go to A and E often, because they have a problem which hasn't been dealt with properly, or its just too long to wait for an appointment, or an outpatient appt at the hospital. My mum was under the pain clinic, which was something like a six month wait between appts, and her mobility was decreasing weekly. Her pain wasn't managed, and her mobility issues caused so many other health problems.

  • Oh, and also, older people are being discharged from hospital as they are 'bed blocking' but without proper thought for what will happen once they're home. Then that leads onto care being provided at home, which is also stretched to breaking point.. a more holistic approach is needed, I think.

  • At some point, if it's not already happening, I can see the powers that be turning away people who I've mentioned in favour of others. The cost of drugs, as said is horrendous and you read of cases where folk who are going to die anyway are fighting to be prescribed expensive drugs just for a possible few extra months of life. The transplant waiting list is long. Should a 40 a day person be allowed in the queue ahead of a child on the lung transplant list, should an alcoholic be the same for liver transplant?


    In the last few years on visiting my medical centre I've been asked, do you smoke, how much do you drink and the answers have always been recorded.
    At some point, doesn't matter who's in power, someone will be making the decision on peoples health in relation to their habits not just for what's available. People living longer and being more dependent on the system IMO will also impact that decision.


    Quote

    a more 'joined up' service between GP's services and the hospital.


    My practice has it to an extent with record sharing and from what I've seen, liaison.

  • The thing is,we're all paying(well most of us anyway)for the NHS.I try and look after myself as best as I can.I don't smoke,only drink very occasionally,I keep my weight in check,etc,but my money goes to everyone else who does'nt.
    Alot of people waste NHS resources.Drunks that end up in A&E on weekends,people with non threatening type ailments using A&E etc.Maybe those that self inflict should pay?

  • for a start it is the NATIONAL health service, its not supposed to heal anyone from abroad, also your national insurance payments were originally to entitle you to treatment in the future, I don't see why anyone-no matter where they are from- is entitled to treatment if they haven't made any contributions. we cannot heal the world for free.

  • Difficult subject, but I watched a programme with health professionals discussing the validity of keeping people alive when they have catastrophic illness or issues. The consensus was that just because we can, doesn't always mean we should..

  • costs £ 138 per person, so how much does it cost if no one walks through the door ? ie,cost of running the department wages electricity etc tis like the police, tis said it costs x amount of pounds to police a demo, but surely the police and nurses still have to be paid regardless


    I get what your saying and the intensity of staff needed on duty is reflected by the hight footfall through the door. The building and ancillaries would still be there, running. It would be a lot less for sure.

  • My mum was under the pain clinic, which was something like a six month wait between appts, and her mobility was decreasing weekly. Her pain wasn't managed, and her mobility issues caused so many other health problems.


    The government target is said to be 17 week. I've just waited 21 weeks for the pain clinic. But once your on there books and in the system. They are quite quick on a
    pointments. If a patient hasn't used the pain clinic for over 12 months they are automatically discharged and have to be revered all over again. I had my first appointment in November and have my 3rd on the 10th of this month.

  • From what I can see of it, the problems are all tackled from the wrong end. The symptoms are treated instead of the disease.


    The disease is that big business, money, and greed all run the country. If an uncorrupted State ran the schools, the food industry, the drug industry, and the alcohol industry, it could cut out most unhealthy living from the very start. The advertising industry, and some others, would cease to exist. The NHS would no longer be a lucrative outlet for the drug companies; it would be there to help people get well again.


    People would only be able to buy food that was healthy, relative to what can be bought today. Recreational drugs including tobacco and booze would be closely rationed, rather like in Sweden years ago.
    Within five years the health of the population would begin to improve significantly, and would continue to improve.


    All this would require perhaps, some form of benevolent dictatorship that would prevent the influence of business in public areas like health, food, drugs, etc. Multinationals would have to toe the line, or be banned from these shores. They would not go quietly, and there would be economic repercussions from abroad.

  • The grossly obese can go to secure fat camps. Reduced calories, improved food quality and excercise enforced. It works!
    If they don't wish to go they obviously are not that serious about helping themselves.
    Build a similar facility next door for the drug dependent.
    The smokers will have already informed the system of their weekly or daily quantity smoked so they can now pay that not inconsiderate sum to the system to contribute to or possibly even pay for their treatment.
    Health tourists, well there are laws against that so man up and enforce them!
    Stop squandering money on ivf increasing the population against natures wishes and chopping dicks off men who want to swan around in dresses calling themselves Arabella or somesuch and the like.

  • The grossly obese can go to secure fat camps. Reduced calories, improved food quality and excercise enforced. It works!
    If they don't wish to go they obviously are not that serious about helping themselves.
    Build a similar facility next door for the drug dependent.
    The smokers will have already informed the system of their weekly or daily quantity smoked so they can now pay that not inconsiderate sum to the system to contribute to or possibly even pay for their treatment.
    Health tourists, well there are laws against that so man up and enforce them!
    Stop squandering money on ivf increasing the population against natures wishes and chopping dicks off men who want to swan around in dresses calling themselves Arabella or somesuch and the like.


    Wouldn't like to live in your world!


    -- Posted from the UKHippy mobile app --

  • Yes, a lot of hospital admissions are because of self-inflicted harm, but nobody lives a life of high self-esteem all the time.


    Most people at some point indulge in drugs, alcohol, junk food, sedentary lifestyles or suffer stress or take risks with their safety - it's rare to find anyone who has always been good to themselves.


    There needs to be more done to empower people and to show them that they don't need to live the way they do - but a system that penalises people for not being perfect isn't a system that I want to live in.

  • The grossly obese can go to secure fat camps. Reduced calories, improved food quality and excercise enforced. It works!
    If they don't wish to go they obviously are not that serious about helping themselves.
    Build a similar facility next door for the drug dependent.
    The smokers will have already informed the system of their weekly or daily quantity smoked so they can now pay that not inconsiderate sum to the system to contribute to or possibly even pay for their treatment.
    Health tourists, well there are laws against that so man up and enforce them!
    Stop squandering money on ivf increasing the population against natures wishes and chopping dicks off men who want to swan around in dresses calling themselves Arabella or somesuch and the like.


    Would you advocate this kind of treatment for your own family and loved ones?

  • How is offering a service that would actually solve certain problems penalising them. They ask for help, no body is forcing them. Problem is nowadays the masses with their entitlement mentality want or even demand quick fixes that involve little or no effort on their part. You do not have to look around much to see that rarely works. And yes for those I care about if I believe the toughest option is the best longterm solution for their ills I would drive them there myself.
    Self discipline is all that's needed and often plain blunt truth is what will encourage someone to excersize it.
    And if it's after the event assistance that is needed why shouldn't the patient put in equal effort to those helping them. That's real equality and with it can come self worth and dignity.

  • 'Learned Helplessness' is a defined phrase that could be applied to some of your outline....it can be very frustrating to witness but humans are exceptionally skilled at simplifying others problems without addressing their own problems......it's human nature and a reason why we need others.


    Those others can see aspects of the self to which the individual may be blind.


    Why individuals are blind to aspects of the self is complex, confusing and unsolved.

  • Post by HippieMcHipFace ().

    This post was deleted by the author themselves ().
  • The other day an old lady (89!) fell backwards down some steps at our local shopping square. A local builder's office was alerted, and a couple of ladies came out to give first-aid, trying to staunch the blood flow from a bad head gash caused by hitting the steps.


    Passers-by of all types, races, creeds and colours stopped to enquire if they might help. Two nurses ran down from the local surgery with bandages to make a more professional job of the first-aid.


    In the biting cold wind several people, including youngsters, took off their coats and jackets to help keep this old person warm. We all stayed with her, talking to keep her awake, until the ambulance arrived 50 minutes later.


    While we waited I reflected how much this showed the human decency of all people, of whatever sort or background, to help a fellow being in distress. It reinforced my belief that most people are inherently well-disposed to each other, and are in fact decent people. Sometimes it is easy to forget this.


    Whether we are all entitled to care is perhaps beside the point here; it is a basic human instinct to try to help another human, or animal for that matter, in distress.

  • The World Health Organisation (who) defines health as:-


    “a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.” (who;1948)


    The National "HEALTH" Service is historically aligned with the who definition of "health".


    The definition is challenged and maligned by various governments, corporations and individuals for various reasons..... the main objections are that it excludes pretty much every human from claiming to be 'healthy' and that it ?unconsciously? promotes the medicalisation of society....


    Personally I found the definition revalationary....a Eureka moment and a reality adjustment that I could accept as truth.


    "Health" (who) is elusive and probably unobtainable but the concept might open the mind to the unrealised potential of humankind.

  • Post by HippieMcHipFace ().

    This post was deleted by the author themselves ().