Is Islam A Religion Of Peace

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  • perhaps a negative view of the muslim world is been brought about by the actions of a few in the muslim world and indeed elsewhere and not by a debate where both sides are able to argue for or against the motion. Did you watch the debates IC or check out Raheels video about attitudes and demographics ?

  • Just look up the history of any religion to find out whether or not it was ever a religion of peace.


    Agreed BUT, to the best of my knowledge, Islam is the only religion attached to a book that espouses an absence of Peace for those who do not convert to Islam and follow the book. The Old Testament certainly has some very "odd" behavioural suggestions and I believe the New Testament is without those "odd" suggestions but neither book suggests disposing of those who will not believe/convert?


    Sure there have been wars and the like associated with religion but I don't think the founders of those religions have proposed removal of the unbeliever or genocide or wars, it has been men who have later decided it would be a good idea.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • Sooty,I have always picked up an anti islamic vibe from you, and here you say you agree One hundred percent,may I ask with what exactly and why?
    Its very easy to say things like that,but when it come down to putting it ionto your own wors you have to think about it a bit more,why are you a hundred percent in agreement?


    Don hurry to respond as have got to head off now,but to be continued tomorrow:D


    I'm not Anti Islamic at all I'm anti-anybody who is a fanatic of religion who is bound to do something over and above or in extreme of the accepted norm, usually killing, in the name of the said cause

  • Agreed BUT, to the best of my knowledge, Islam is the only religion attached to a book that espouses an absence of Peace for those who do not convert to Islam and follow the book. The Old Testament certainly has some very "odd" behavioural suggestions and I believe the New Testament is without those "odd" suggestions but neither book suggests disposing of those who will not believe/convert?


    Sure there have been wars and the like associated with religion but I don't think the founders of those religions have proposed removal of the unbeliever or genocide or wars, it has been men who have later decided it would be a good idea.


    From what I recall, there are many references in the Old Testament about 'The Lord' going before the tribes of Israel and blasting their enemies, and inciting them to put to death the unbelievers. This - the Old Testament - is often of much the same mood as the books of Islam; picturing a people favoured of the High God, who will help them overcome their enemies, and give them a special place. Both are strongly based on a tribal, paranoid, male-dominant type of religion. Followers of both are known as 'Peoples of the Book', and share a common history if you go back far enough.


    What Jesus taught - if he was real, of course - was something quite different, something far more spiritually-advanced for its time. But whatever he said was no doubt twisted and changed and made to suit the ideas of men who came later, who sought only power and greed and religious dominance, and made wars in his name in order to achieve their vile ambitions.

  • oldkeith - we really must stop meeting like this. :) Thanks for your last post, to my eye, it is a very good example of "what we believe, see, understand" - I'm guilty of the same thing, that's the trouble with not being almost 5,800 years old - the date of the end of creation (another man-made calculation).

    Here I go again... :D

    Neither the Old nor the New Testament were entirely dictated by any form of supreme being to either the Jews or the Christians. OK, parts of the Old were claimed to have been given directly to Moses, like the 10 commandments, but the Muslims claim that the Quran was dictated in its entirety by the angel Gabriel to Mohammed (they say it took 23 years to do it). In the case of the New, Jesus, whether he existed or not, did not start a new religion. The religion was started by his "disciples" and it appears the writings commenced some 40 years after Jesus' (supposed) death.

    The real trouble with all this is that too many people of the book think their version is the only correct version. People being hornery likely explains why there are some 31,000 recognised versions of Christianity, 40 to 150 versions of Islam and 3 to 12 versions of Judaism; all numbers subject to revision over time and according to which "reference" one takes the figures from.

    I suppose it might be said that all religion is in the eye of the believer and biased according to the axe they want to grind. The one thing that the people of the book appear to share is the wish to control those that follow their particular tenets. In this, women seem to suffer most.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • What you say is very true, but we have to consider that anyone can start a religion by claiming that it was dictated by a god, or the agent of a god. Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni form a relatively modern example, and I am sure there are probably even more recent ones. I guess one has to have a helluva lot of neck to carry out this sort of thing until they get established as a going concern, with plenty money behind them; but con-men have always had plenty of neck.


    As you state, Jesus, if he existed (because his legend, including his 'resurrection' is a more recent incarnation of a very similar Babylonian one), was just a wandering preacher, one of many at the time, and certainly would not have thought he was starting a new religion. That as you rightly say, came afterwards, when some religious groups began to grow impatient with the idea of the Jewish messiah, who had apparently not yet arrived, and started to look around for one. It was then easier to say that he had been and gone already, and start a new off-shoot of the old Jewish religion, which evolved into Christianity, building up for itself a glorious and mostly non-existent past as it did so.


    The Old Testament itself is a mish-mash of myths and legends from earlier civilisations, has several forms of god and gods (mostly male) parading through it, and has its time-sequence completely at variance with scientific archeology. Some of the wondrous kings and cities and even lands which appear within it never existed, or if they did, existed as tribal chieftains, small primitive villages, and little provinces. In short, much of the Old Testament is an invented myth of a glorious Jewish history. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed


    There is a hypothesis that male-dominated religions, with of course male gods and the subjugation of women, came into being in the middle east when populations began to outgrow their resources, when lands became wasted through over-grazing, and when men began to invade each others territories as a way of life. A fiercely competitive way of life rather than the more cooperative one which may have existed earlier.

  • oldkeith - we could continue to bat this topic backwards and forwards until we are old and gray and fit for nothing and, in the process, change nothing. :D Maybe we should just congratulate each other on being so perceptive and analytical and call it a day??? ;)


    If we don't, I suspect that we are going to stray into the time when time forgot and play bat and ball with the creation myths that are all so very similar; many of which pre-date the people of the book - by a very large period of time.


    Thank you for offering your points of view, I've enjoyed them all. :thumbup:

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • I would agree, we don't really need to discuss these topics, as we both seem to have an open intelligence that isn't afraid to look into the grisly history of these religions, and form our own opinions.


    However, we are both aware that these things might be quite new and novel and interesting to some people following this thread, and if we have in any way encouraged them to look deeper than the gloss which appears on the surface of any religion, we have served good purpose:thumbup:

  • I would agree, we don't really need to discuss these topics, as we both seem to have an open intelligence that isn't afraid to look into the grisly history of these religions, and form our own opinions.


    However, we are both aware that these things might be quite new and novel and interesting to some people following this thread, and if we have in any way encouraged them to look deeper than the gloss which appears on the surface of any religion, we have served good purpose:thumbup:


    I wonder how many of the good people who frequent UKH are active members of any of the "book" religions as I would really welcome their input. Our viewpoint appears to be from outside of their religion and belief systems and so, not being a part of their "circle", we don't get to see what they see. After all, it is only by sharing views, however different, that we get to test our own beliefs and learn.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • Very much so. To spend time amongst others with different beliefs is one of the greatest educations you will receive. An open mind is essential too,otherwise you are just backing up your own beliefs in dogma!!!


    I have tried to bring that point up on numerous occassions,a healthy debate does not happen when all the people involved in are sitting on one side,that is moreso how religions are created.


    Many of the people reading these posts will not have travelled through muslim countries or spent their time in muslim communities,so their views on the subject get tainted with what they read on threads like this or what they see on the tv.


    The underlying current that I pick up on posts like this is very much that a lot of people have made up their minds that Islam is bad because of a few rotten apples in the barrel.
    I have even read the derogotory term "raghead" on here a couple of times recently when someone has been referring to someone from muslim lands and think that it is bang out of order to use such phrases.


    How on earth will we ever achieve peace when even the hippies are using such foul terminology?


    Here at ukhippy we have got a very interesting site going where there is a lot of love,compassion,intelligence and good humour spread across the pages and you can see on a regular basis the positive comments of people who want to join this community because they have been inspired by what they have read.
    That being the case,it goes to show that our words can and do make a difference in this world and that is why I am always trying to spread the word of positivity and fairplay on these pages and try to encourage people to think about their posts and shoot a little less from the hip.
    Together we have built up a great forum that can help change the world,lets try and build on that.


    Lets hope that one day people are not on forums asking is ukhippy a religion of peace !!!!

  • "...Our viewpoint appears to be from outside of their religion and belief systems..."

    I take your point, RD, but some of us have seen one or more of these religions from the inside, already!
    That is one of the reasons some of us are here discussing them!
    We may have been subject to them, perhaps in youth, and we have over the passage of time more closely examined them, and we have found them wanting.

  • "...Our viewpoint appears to be from outside of their religion and belief systems..."

    I take your point, RD, but some of us have seen one or more of these religions from the inside, already!
    That is one of the reasons some of us are here discussing them!
    We may have been subject to them, perhaps in youth, and we have over the passage of time more closely examined them, and we have found them wanting.


    Hi OK, but that's us, we've made our choices to be on the outside looking in but how can we understand the views of those who have either been brought up with the book or have found the book and decided it offers what they need if they cannot or choose not to join in?

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • Hi OK, but that's us, we've made our choices to be on the outside looking in but how can we understand the views of those who have either been brought up with the book or have found the book and decided it offers what they need if they cannot or choose not to join in?


    To understand this we first have to consider, as an hypothesis, that everyone is at different stages of spiritual/psychological evolution, and that everyone is different in the amount of intelligence they apply to different aspects of their world. We also have to consider that some people compartmentalise concepts and ideas more than others do, either as a habit or a natural trait, or through some form of training.


    As an example, I know several quite religious people, nice people I might add, who although very intelligent in their own sphere, which might be medical or scientific work, are nonetheless quite happy in their choice of religion, and do not question it. Or its history. At all.
    For them, their religion fills a spiritual niche in their life, they go to services and meet people of like mind, and some of them do voluntary work together for the public good. Their take on religion is in the here and now, not so much in the hereafter. I would not dream of pointing out the - to me - obvious shortfalls of their religion to them, because they are happy doing what they do, believing what they do, at this point in their spiritual or psychic evolution.
    Only they themselves can decide at what point they wish to look outside of their cave. Even then, it would be unseemly to hasten this process, as the light outside the cave, the light of logic and science and analysis, can be far too bright at first.


    If one mentally keeps religion in a compartment, even if one is a scientist or a surgeon, one does not apply one's knowledge of science, logic, or analysis to anything in that particular compartment, it is just not done.

  • oldkeith - it's impossible to have a dialogue when you are talking to yourself and, at the moment, we are only talking to ourselves! :D

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • I am suggesting that the reason most religious people do not join in discussions like this, is because they are quite happy with what they have, at this stage in their mental and spiritual evolution.
    We generally don't get any fire-breathing evangelists here either, because they would get (metaphorically) cut to pieces:reddevil:


    The original question raised by the OP was if Islam is a religion of Peace. The concensus seems to be that it is no more a religion of peace than Christianity, or indeed most others. When assessing anything, we have to look at its track record, not its promises.

  • I am suggesting that the reason most religious people do not join in discussions like this, is because they are quite happy with what they have, at this stage in their mental and spiritual evolution.
    We generally don't get any fire-breathing evangelists here either, because they would get (metaphorically) cut to pieces:reddevil:


    The original question raised by the OP was if Islam is a religion of Peace. The concensus seems to be that it is no more a religion of peace than Christianity, or indeed most others. When assessing anything, we have to look at its track record, not its promises.


    Must be that I've spent too much time speaking with JWs.


    As to your last paragraph:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • So called "Christians" committed genocide on the Native Americans, killing over 100 million. Hitler claimed to be Christian, and tried to become a Catholic priest. The Catholic church killed millions,beheading and burning them at the stake, for over a thousand years.


    What the radical Muslims do, they learned from the Catholic church during the Crusades.

  • that guy at Orly airport wasn't peaceful was he? he said he wanted to "die for Allah" and he did!!

  • So called "Christians" committed genocide on the Native Americans, killing over 100 million. Hitler claimed to be Christian, and tried to become a Catholic priest. The Catholic church killed millions,beheading and burning them at the stake, for over a thousand years.


    What the radical Muslims do, they learned from the Catholic church during the Crusades.


    So far as the crusades go -

    I think that it was after several centuries of Muslim conquest and invasion ,where land was taken from as far as the Levant,Palestine and Jerusalem,Egypt,Turkey ,Ghana, Afghanistan ,right upto Spain - areas that used to be called Anatolia and Andalus ,that the Christian crusades began.
    In 1094 the Byzantium emperor Alexius Comnenus I asked for help from western Christendom to help against muslim invasions of his territory.
    In 1095 pope Urbanus II preaches for the first crusade. Jerusalem was captured in 1099.
    During these Muslim conquest ,Churches and religious buildings were destroyed and cities ransacked , the conquered people had three choices -fight and die,convert and pay the zakat tax or keep their biblical faith and pay the jizya tax, be treated as second class citizens and be referred to as dhimmis.
    Dhimmi as a status was orignally just applied to Jews, Christians and Sabians.Later the status was also applied to Zoroastrians,Mandaeans,Hindus and Buddhist.
    It should also be noted that Islamic expansion continued well into the 17th century. For example Constantinople was conquered by muslim crusaders in 1453 and Vienna was unsuccessfully beseiged for the second time in 1683.


    Of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that Byzantine and Western European leaders always behaved in an exemplary manner, but I think that some people seem to believe that Islam was an innocent victim in the whole history of the crusades and this simply is not true.


    As for Hitler-





  • So called "Christians" committed genocide on the Native Americans, killing over 100 million. Hitler claimed to be Christian, and tried to become a Catholic priest. The Catholic church killed millions,beheading and burning them at the stake, for over a thousand years.


    What the radical Muslims do, they learned from the Catholic church during the Crusades.


    Didn't dare mention it on another thread ;) but Hitler was a teetotaller and a vegetarian. :D


    Curious about your Native American comments and I agree as to the attempted genocide but would appreciate knowing where you discovered the 100 million statistic from please?

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • A lot of anti-Islamic websites are sharing “Adolf Hitler Quote” images. The images declare either that Adolf Hitler said “The only religion I respect is Islam, the only prophet I admire is Mohammed,” or that “By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of of Allah.” These quotes seem to indicate that Adolf Hitler was a Muslim and praised Islam.


    They’re fakes. In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the words "God", "the Creator", "Providence" and "the Lord". ..... with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord".


    These false quotes have been whipped up by someone who wants to tell a story that connects Islam to Nazism, that makes it easier for you to hate Muslims as Hitler’s supposed modern-day favored ones. Whoever whipped up the quotes wants to use falsehood to smear over the truth that Hitler was raised Christian, that Hitler went to schools with Christian instruction as an child, that Hitler identified as Christian as an adult, and that Hitler used Christian religious imagery in his language right up to and during the year he committed suicide and had his body burned.

  • Are you sure that they're false quotes ? If so , thank you for pointing it out. I haven't used the images before and wont use them again .
    That being said ,it's pretty well known that Hiter admired Islam and shared some common ground within their ideologies whilst at the same also considering Arabs to be racially inferior . Their were also SS units made up entirely of tens of thousands Muslims recruited by the grand mufti of Jerusalem and arab nationalist and former prime minister of the kingdom of Iraq ,Rashid Ali al-Gaylani .

  • right up to and during the year he committed suicide and had his body burned.


    Wrong, that's what they want you to think.......... he's alive and well and living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20500, USA and here's a recent undoctored photo to prove it really is him


  • So far as the crusades go -

    I think that it was after several centuries of Muslim conquest and invasion ,where land was taken from as far as the Levant,Palestine and Jerusalem,Egypt,Turkey ,Ghana, Afghanistan ,right upto Spain - areas that used to be called Anatolia and Andalus ,that the Christian crusades began.


    Where I've been living since the late eighties is called Andalucia (the land of the Andalus). The effects of Moorish culture are visible everywhere.
    The rulers before the Moors arrived were the Visigoths who'd conquered and held Spain in spite of only making up between 1-2% of the population.
    The Moorish army that came to Spain was mainly Berbers, only recently (and partly superficially) converted to Islam. It was a relatively tolerant regime.
    Spain at that time had been held by the Visigoths for a long time. One Visigoth King died in battle with the Berbers, then the next Visigoth King, Theudimer, signed a conditional capitulation by which his lands were made into an autonomous client state under Umayyad rule ("the rule of God"). His government and the Christian beliefs of his subjects were respected.
    Over the following centuries there were a number of Moorish rulers that struggled with each other for power, but the population was mostly free to continue being Christians. The Hispanic Church, based in Toledo, whose status remained largely undiminished under the new rulers, fell out with the Roman Church in the late 8th century.
    So there was a tolerance of Christianity, with some churches holding both Christian and Muslim services. The Muslims brought with them knowledge of irrigation and farming that was invaluable to the southern half of Spain. I've spent many days admiring miles on miles of irrigation that still exists to this day, bringing fertility to previously unproductive land.


  • Their was some tolerance to christians depending on which emir was ruling but it didn't always last . Theudimer took up the fight against the mainly berber forces ( but later reinforced with arab forces ) after the death of King Roderick the usurper at the battle of Guadette in 710 or 711. Theudimer was eventually defeated after a fierce battle .The lives of the citizens were spared on condition of submitting to muslim rule and paying a tribute/jizya and informing on opponents of the new regime . Theudimer was allowed to keep his title and lands.


    I think that the methods of irrigation that are mentioned were originally from Persian culture and then became incoporated into muslim culture after the arab muslim invasion of the levant


    Nice pictures btw.