Is Islam A Religion Of Peace

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  • In much the same light as the debate - is the catholic church a force for good in the world ? that I posted a while ago , here's a couple more debates , the motion- Is Islam a religion of peace ?
    Two debates, the first , Christopher Hitchens vs. master of taqiyya and son of a prominent figure in the muslim brothehood Tariq Ramadan .


    The second an intelligence squared debate with Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the excellent Douglas Murray arguing against the motion and arguing for Maajid Nawaz and Zeba Khan.


    Douglas , Ayaan and Maajid have appeared on various debates and discussions arguing onthe same side,since this .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMraxhd9Z9Q



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh34Xsq7D_A

  • Just look up the history of any religion to find out whether or not it was ever a religion of peace.

    Not many have been; almost all western organised religions have had their - often long - periods of expansionist wars. Often tied in with religious nationalism and greed for land and power and wealth, of course.


    Many religions seem to go through an evil warlike phase before they are tamed by their powers being gradually dismantled, either by cultural enlightenment or by superior secular force. They then hang on to as much of their ill-gotten gains, like land and wealth, as they possibly can, and seek other less physical means of subjugating people.


    Once we find the wrong people in charge of organising a religion, for the wrong reasons, we find a religion that will make excuses to go to war, regardless of what it's originators may have done or said. And what the originators may have done or said can so easily be changed, if necessary, and called holy history.

  • The main problem I have with the religion of Islam is largely it hasn't moved on from the middle ages, when it was invented.
    Yes there are individuals who consider themselves Muslim who have joined modern society.
    For every one of them there are many more who don't want to participate in modern life.
    In both groups, there are those who say they are religious, yet gamble, drink alcohol, have affairs and are gay. All things forbidden in the Koran.

  • As far as religion (and other topics) is concerned, this sums up my general feelings on the subject...


    Man can be the most affectionate and altruistic of creatures, yet he's potentially more vicious than any other. He is the only one who can be persuaded to hate millions of his own kind whom he has never seen and to kill as many as he can lay his hands on in the name of his tribe or his God. - Benjamin Spock, paediatrician and author (2 May 1903-1998)


    I'm not too inclined to believe that Islam is a religion of peace because, if it is, why don't all the Mulsims who say "we are peaceful" turn in to the authorities all of their fellows that they know to have been radicalised or are in the process of being radicalised??? I just do not believe in the excuse - we don't know anyone radical or being radicalised. The majority appear to live in Muslim communities and go to community Mosques so why don't they know?


    Having said that, I probably appear to be anti-Muslim but I have to say that I also have many problems with Israelis/Jews and the Buddhists of South East Asia. In fact I am challenged, in general, by the way people treat people, as per my quote from Benjamin Spock. :(

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

  • What about you likahamadoolihan,what are your thoughts and your take on islam?


    I have to ask this as it would appear that you have some kind of obsession-fixation with regards to islam,ranging from your avatar through to many of your other posts.


    Please do not shoot me down for asking,as I may of even missed the relevance of your connection to this subject in previous posts,but I have meant to ask for some time and now is really that opportune moment.


    What is islam to you?


    I base my views on islam on my personal experiences of people of the islamic faith and to be honest they have all been positive. I have met many lovely people who want a better world for all and want to be left alone to believe in what makes them feel good.


    I have noticed that on many posts on religion and faith on this forum that people are quick to judge entire belief systems based on extreme fundamentalists and wars of yesteryear.


    To ask a lot of people who have never read the quran is islam a religion of peace to me is similar to asking a vegatarian which sausage making recipé is the best.
    The answers you will get in the western world are often not first hand experiences but are based on what one is told via the media or third hand from a bloke named dave down the pub!!


    Are travellers honest people would be a similar type of question !!


    It depends who and where you ask this question to what your responses may be,and in this situation I would call anyone who is in the unsure catorgory,not to base their own opinions on what they read in the responses,but to study the whole scene so that they can get a less tainted viewpoint.


  • This is the problem..if just 1% of let's face it, ANY religion or organisation that large are willing to be a fanatic and die for a so called "holy war" the sheer numbers make it pretty overwhelming

  • The only religion for me is Pastafari, cos I get to wear a colander on my head .


    That has tickled me Ma,I can picture you and bungo sat outside listening to reggae and smoking a 72skin spliff with your colanders on your heads. yeah man -pastafari xx


  • This is the problem..if just 1% of let's face it, ANY religion or organisation that large are willing to be a fanatic and die for a so called "holy war" the sheer numbers make it pretty overwhelming


    Do not forget that 76 percent of statistics are made up on the spot :whistle:

  • Do not forget that 76 percent of statistics are made up on the spot :whistle:


    I was in quoting is a statistic I was just saying that is just 1% of any organisation that are as large...say 1% of Catholics 1% of Jehovah's Witnesses at 1% of busdrivers it doesn't matter if 1% of that and willing to die for a cause and that's a hell of a lot more people that we need to deal with

  • I was in quoting is a statistic I was just saying that is just 1% of any organisation that are as large...say 1% of Catholics 1% of Jehovah's Witnesses at 1% of busdrivers it doesn't matter if 1% of that and willing to die for a cause and that's a hell of a lot more people that we need to deal with


    So thank god-oops goodness that one percent is without a doubt a grose exageration

  • Take religion out of that comment,and just anyone who would kill should suffice.


    This is my point that because this forum attracts its own type of belief system which mostly revolves around the pagan ways,very few people have anything good to say about religion as bad news and negativity are more newsworthy,and everyone is quick to attack anything religious based.
    There is soooooo much love and comfort going on in the world and sooooo much peace and harmony that comes from religion and faith,yet people do not talk about that anywhere near as much yet it is surely more a greater majority than the bad.


    I remember a drunken friend coming to stonehenge with me one winter solstice and he was so happy and full of love and sharing,that he kept saying ( because it was his belief) merry xmas everyone. He wanted to share his good feelings with people and spread the love,very honorable I thoughty. You would not believe how many people told him,its not christmas its solstice. There are closed minded people everywhere,but thank goodness for the good ones.
    Lets not forget to concentrate on what is good too eh !!

  • I will add,that I am not affiliated with any religion myself but more of a spiritually minded person who is open to other spiritual beliefs.so I am not defending religion based on my belief in any particular one x

  • ah yes, church of the flying spaghetti monster.


    The question that is this threads title was the motion of the two very good debates with some very knowledgable people arguing for and against the motion.
    I was not asking people who have never read the Quran to answer the question based on the media or what they've heard from a bloke called Dave down the pub , I was hoping that perhaps people would take the time to watch and listen to the debates , take note of the points raised and maybe come to some answers based on consideration of what they had seen and heard.


    I have had mainly good interactions with muslims and also some horrid ones , same as with most types of people . That doesn't excuse the fact that in my opinion, Islam at its core is a repressive , misogynistic ,facistic supremacist death cult masquerading as a religion , that seeks to impose itself on the rest of humanity one way or another. These are it's stated aims ,perpetual jihad until the leaders of Dar al -harb submit to Islam and then become Dar al- Islam.
    It's all there in black and white in the Quran the hadiths and the suras. Or indeed in the stated aims of the muslim brotherhood , who's founder was the grandad of one of the debaters - Tariq Ramadan.


    It would be very good if people did just want to peacefully practice what makes them feel good , but this isn't the case whether its about how animals are slaughtered for meat or the imposition of Islamic blasphemy laws on non muslim majority countries through worldwide violent protest, intimidation or outright slaughter.Or maybe western governments turning a blind eye to the behavour of some migrants , for example - in some cases saying that their is nothing wrong with a migrant continuing his marriage to his 14 year old cousin whom he married in his home muslim majority country before coming to live in Europe .
    Sharia is not compatable with western values and if people want to live in countries that give them a better life because they aren't governed by medieval laws supposedly relayed from god to some man in a cave by the arch angel Gabriel then they should live by the laws of their new country and not try to impose and enforce sharia in the countrys that have become their new homes


    Viewing and basing the way your societys and people must live (otherwise eternal tortue and hellfire in the afterlife )on the actions and life of someone that is held up to supposedly be the most perfect human ever but in fact was a violent medieval warlord who waged violent islamic jihadi conquest, who beheaded jews , took sex slaves , tortured enemies , married a child and consumated the marriage a couple of years later when she was still a small child, might possibly be a little bit problematic in this day and age.


    That been said I have nothing against individual muslims who from personal experience are just like most other people and
    thank the good lord Allahn that the great majority of them don't live like their prophet and indeed instead take comfort from the more benovelant aspects and passages and verses in their faith generally written in Mecca before the violent Medina ones .


    I think that Islamism is perhaps the most important issue of our times and perhaps that is why I might come across as a little obsessive about it .


    As for my avator , as a cross dressing supposed to be parody brave jihadi , I'm hardly going to have a picture of a bunch of flowers or a grateful dead symbol.


  • This is the problem..if just 1% of let's face it, ANY religion or organisation that large are willing to be a fanatic and die for a so called "holy war" the sheer numbers make it pretty overwhelming


    I've posted this elsewhere before but it seems relevant on this point


    I think this short film by Raheel Rhaza a sunni muslim Pakistani-Canadian author deals with a lot of the issues mentioned here , she explains clearly with facts and figures the demographics and some of the realitys on the ground. Of course for pointing out these things , brave jihadis issue fatwa on her


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk

  • Thank you for taking the time to explain that :thumbup:


    As I said,it was just a question that I wanted to ask you as it was pretty blatant that for whatever reason it was of some great importance to you.
    I respect your views and agree wholheartedly with you on some of the negative sides of their ways.


    I hope that I have not offended you in any way by asking as honestly I would never intend to do that.


    Despite the efforts from the taliban and isis to name a couple of the draconian practices ,I think that there is a lot of positive happenings going on throughout the muslim world and that vast amounts of progress is being made in making the islamic world far more socially acceptable on a global scale.
    There are many within the faith that have taken a stand against such oppression as what has carried on for too many years to count and with the news of whats going on going out to a far greater worldwide audience now than it ever has,the world is getting to know more about what is happening and more people are getting up the courage to stand up and try and clean up the faith and what it really means to the masses.


    I am currently reading " I am malala" which is one hell of a story about one person who dared stand up against the wrongs of islam,and no doubt her book alone will make a small difference to the cause.


    I dont see that islam is fundamentally wrong,its just been carried out badly by a bunch of dicks,though the majority are not like them and I think that the majority will make it change.


    I ( fortunately or unfortunately ) can only concentrate on the positives in life as that is what I have taught myself to do and it is how I think and operate,so any opinions from me will always look towards the betterment of the 'carte de jour' so to speak.
    Therefore if I ever challenge anything that you are saying about such important issues as the current and historic state of the islamic world,please understand that I am doing so with the hope of making you and other people see the bigger picture and not just get sucked up in all thats bad about it. There is always a positive side and it should not be forgotten.


    As I said before,and I was not being sarcastic,thanks again for taking the time to explain your thoughts.


    Peace be with you xx

  • I'm afraid that the core tenets of Islam and viewing Muhhamad as the most perfect human is wrong and has negative impacts on the humans that are born into and have to live by the laws of said faith.


    Last year an effort to get child marriage outlawed in Pakistan was rejected at the behest of the mullahs as been unislamic.
    Little girls are forceably married in muslim countrys because it was good enough for the prophet so it must be right


    Most people trying to bring about some sort of reformation are generally despised in their communitys and end up with a mullah issuing a fatwa against them. Islam says it is the last and unchangeable perfect word of god , which in all honesty makes any reformation pretty hard to bring about and historically any reform or people trying to bring it about have been violently stamped on.
    That been said ,good luck to people like Maajid Nawaz and Raheel Raza the lady who made the excellent film I posted above .


    I'm currently re reading - In Praise of Blasphemy , why Charlie Hebdo is not islamophobic by Caroline Fourest. A very good read


    Not offended at all by your questions , I believe we've discussed such issues in a cordial and amicable manner on previous occasions and hopefully will continue to do so.

  • I'm afraid that the core tenets of Islam and viewing Muhhamad as the most perfect human is wrong and has negative impacts on the humans that are born into and have to live by the laws of said faith.


    Last year an effort to get child marriage outlawed in Pakistan was rejected at the behest of the mullahs as been unislamic.
    Little girls are forceably married in muslim countrys because it was good enough for the prophet so it must be right


    Agree 100%

  • likahamadoolihan - yours is a fascinating post and having listen/watched the whole of the second suggested clip, I was prompted to ask myself the question - what has changed in the 6 years since that debate was aired that might convince me that Islam is now more of a religion of Peace?


    Regrettably, I can't think of one thing. I feel that there have been far more examples of violence since that debate than there were before and so the visible face of Islam is certainly not for Peace..


    Perhaps, if the current rate of destruction **is** a demonstration of Islam being a religion of Peace, we should be very thankful/grateful that the moderates are "in charge"?

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Red Dragon ().

  • Agree 100%


    Sooty,I have always picked up an anti islamic vibe from you, and here you say you agree One hundred percent,may I ask with what exactly and why?
    Its very easy to say things like that,but when it come down to putting it ionto your own wors you have to think about it a bit more,why are you a hundred percent in agreement?


    Don hurry to respond as have got to head off now,but to be continued tomorrow:D

  • This post appears to be set up in a way that is designed to push a negative viewpoint upon the muslim world and get people with already tainted views to agree more with that.
    I have other things in my life that I prefer to put my time into,the issue that I hold strong,but I hope that there are a few more people on this site that will look at how the negative side of islam is being picked upon here which at the same time is making lots of peace loving muslims look bad and making people harbour more hate towards them,and in my mind that is the perfect irony as it is fighting hate with hate.


    If we all do an eye for an eye the whole world would be blind said mr ghandi !!


    What is to be gained by picking out just the negative points and not pointing out the positive?


    what are you trying to achieve with this post when the answer to the question you ask is already set in your mind?


    Even what we say here can make a negative impact upon innocent people,so give a bit of thought to the possible consequences of your words people and try and spread a bit more love than hate.


    Bonne soiree a tous ( good evening all) xx

  • p; I know that my ramblings can appear like a bit of a personal attack,but they are not,they just try to explore a better and more positive viewpoint from us all.


    Positive is good


    negative is bad


    A demain ( until tomorrow) xx

  • Hi IC - I am just as anti football hooligans and the Far-Right and their violence. If a thread on that starts up, I would hope to respond accordingly.

    "The European Union is just like a jigsaw puzzle, except the pieces all come from different puzzles". - Red Dragon

    "The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us".
    - Calvin+Hobbes