Kids who do not eat meat are not abused!

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  • I found this little gem in the 101 forum and was suficiently irritated to bring it here:


    Quote

    "Like I said. What you choose to do to your body is your own choice. I do not hate you because you choose to self harm. I might be a little more concerned if you forced a child to eat such a restrictive diet as I see that as child abuse.


    Please god tell me you don't have children.


    Do people really believe this guff? How is my child not eating dead animals remotely linked to child abuse?


    My daughter has never eaten animals, nor will she. To turn it on its head I would say that people that inflict meat on their kids are far more abusive than we are as a family for abstaining. My daughter knows why we do not eat animals and as a result at 5 now chooses to continue that. She is happy and healthy. The kind of logic in the quoted post is about as logical as saying that home education is abusive, or wearing red socks is abusive- it is nonsense.

  • Regardless of my opinions, I'm undecided how I feel about text being dragged from another thread in order to be analysed or criticised. I feel the subject could have been approached without the quote.


    So, if the original poster of this wants his comment removed from this thread, I will comply with his wishes. (I know who it is). If he's happy for it to continue then I'll let it remain.

  • I think as a parent, the best thing you can do is teach your children all the facts on a subject in an unbiased way and let them decide for themselves. If you are a meat eater and your child wants to become vegetarian, that's perfectly fine and vice versa. What I do have a problem with is parents who decide the way they live their life is the only way and pressurise their child to do the same, that's just wrong in my eyes. I don't mean when they are little as they can't make decisions so you do what you think is right but as they grow up, they should be allowed to decide what they want and how they want to live their life

  • I think the problem lies in the fact that many people assume we (veg*ns) are clueless about nutrition and therefore only eat the non healthy part of a meal ie chips and boiled potato. My experience has been that a veggy diet is varied and includes many (plant based) sources of nutrients.


    I and most veggies I have known don't need to eat fortified cereals for breakfast as I get all I need from my food. How many non-veggies can say that?


    I agree with hippyvik that we should teach our kids the facts, but I failed at being non-biased. When you see how kids disregard food and then parents bin it I can't help but point out that it used to be a sentient creature with feelings.

  • teaching kids the facts tho will result in them rejecting meat though surely? once people see how horrific it is they do not want to eat it unless they are desensitised or v selfish. parents inflict their views on kids all of the time, but when it comes to not eating animals, how can it be considered to be abusive? i truly believe that "making" my child eat tortured animals is way worse.


    am happy to remove the quote and rephrase if required- i used it because i was stunned (and removed the name)

  • teaching kids the facts tho will result in them rejecting meat though surely? once people see how horrific it is they do not want to eat it unless they are desensitised or v selfish. parents inflict their views on kids all of the time, but when it comes to not eating animals, how can it be considered to be abusive? i truly believe that "making" my child eat tortured animals is way worse.
    am happy to remove the quote and rephrase if required- i used it because i was stunned (and removed the name)


    If it teaches them to reject eating meat, that's a good thing :-) I was vegetarian when I was a teenager and if my daughter chooses that route, I will fully support her. She isn't a big meat eater anyway and I often cook something seperate for her x

  • If it teaches them to reject eating meat, that's a good thing :-) I was vegetarian when I was a teenager and if my daughter chooses that route, I will fully support her. She isn't a big meat eater anyway and I often cook something seperate for her x


    well i forced it on her from birth... but at 5 she has her own mind and chooses to be meat/fish free etc. i was more shocked at the concept of child abuse really. i think it says something when as a society it is deemed normal to eat animals than not and to define parenting by that. that last statement may not have made much sense .... but i know what i mean... :rolleyes::D


    - - - Updated - - -


    My views are so radical they're probably best kept out of this thread - I do a good enough job of alienating people at the best of times. :D



    well... i wanna hear it so spill :P

  • My brother is a meat eater his wife isn't, when they started a family they decided to feed their 3 boys a vegetarian diet, it was his wife's request as she was the one who would be preparing the majority of the meals for them.
    He continued to eat meat but they never made a fuss or spoke about eating different stuff at the table, the lads are now 12, 10 and 8 and have all recently (within the last 12 months) made their own decision to eat meat, not all at once one after the other.
    Some members of our family were horrified by the idea of having veggie diets for babies, and always pointed that out when the lads were regularly ill or under the weather, that may or may not have been connected to their food it also may have been genetic, who knows?
    Anyhow they are all healthy young lads these days and one may well be gracing the premier league with his football skills in the next few years.
    So was it the healthy diet at the start of their life or the fact that they now eat meat that sees them in such rude health???

  • well... i wanna hear it so spill :P


    Well firstly, this is the "vegetarian support forum", and set up for people who are trying to live meat free lives. So in many ways inviting a debate on the values of vegetarianism may not work so well in here - I'm considering moving it. (edit, now moved)


    As for my views, well (and this is the polite version) I believe teaching children to discriminate between species is a form of cultural abuse that's so ingrained most people don't even realise their doing it. People are taught that it's ok to abuse certain species, and because the behaviour is so normalised they go on to become abusers and to pass the same behaviour on to their kids.


    Being taught that eating animals is necessary is a form of abuse, having the process hidden away enables that abuse to continue - and abused people go on to become abusers by turning a blind eye to it, or repeating the lies. It's a socially acceptable cruelty that demonstrates how little we've grown as a species.


    It's very easy to appease your conscience by saying you only eat animals bred specifically for meat, have a good life, get treated ethically etc ... but how many people offering that perspective would be happy to eat a one year old kitten or tuck into the family labrador after a couple of years?


    In the meantime we have all these people saying how much they desire peace on earth - well in my opinion the real revolution needs to start in the kitchen.

  • To add to Paul's statement, there seems to be plenty of evidence linking violence in later life with abuse to animals in youth. I don't feel we can grow as a species until we put this wide scale culturally endorsed violence to animals behind us.

  • i think that it is the desensitization towards eating animals that is a huge issue. the lack of questioning. yes there are links between animal cruelty and sociopathy etc but surely, people who are eating animals are giving the nod of acceptance to abuse and torture. how then can we expect our kids to be compassionate about any living creature or the planet etc.


    a great example would be my parents- cooing over lambs in the fields but then eating one a few weeks later. how can that be anything other than sociopathic? they would balk at eating a horse, cat or dog so alongside that detachment comes speciesism. why we as a society consider that acceptable to teach children is beyond me...

  • I think most people abhor animal cruelty, and when faced with footage of an animal being killed, even for food, most people will wince at the very least. So, why does this all stop at dinner time?


    The only reason I can think of is that people are taught to disassociate at a very young age - and the more something is repeated, the less sensitive we become.


    Imagine sending a toddler out into a field to play with lambs - would you feed one of those lambs to the child and tell them it was the same creature they were playing with it an hour earlier? How would the child react, how should they react?



  • i think that is a real wake up call to the reality of cruelty and barbarism that they may have been completely innocent of before. and yet doing that is honest and given the choice most kids would be horrified and rightly so. i think society makes that many excuses for eating animals and perpetuating the abuse of them, that the masses just accept it.


    i did not need to show my daughter the realities of meat eating, but when she asked me about it i told her in a very scaled down form. she was disgusted and could not work out why people thought that this was acceptable. i cannot see her changing her mind- she is very animal focused and wants to be a hunt sab when she grows up :D

  • I have the same issues with my parents. They sort of understand but then tell me to stop talking about it; they're too old to change apparently...


    The whole horse meat thing was laughable, so much fuss over eating a horse instead of a cow. I might understand if they were keen horse lovers but it seemed to be the public in general.

  • My two littleys now almost 6 and 4 1/2 yrs old have been vegetarian since January 2013 when we all stopped eating meat.


    Occasionally when we're out at an event/family thing, they will choose something meaty or fishy but i always explain to them what it is that they are wanting to eat. Henry likes Tuna but he didn't realise it was meat so now he does know he probably won't choose it again. Cushla is sometimes partial to chicken, quite often she will insist on having a chicken leg or a chicken dipper thing off a buffet but i am always careful to explain that it's chicken like Cosmik, Paxo and Igor in the garden (our pet hens) and sometimes she then doesn't want it, or has a bite and won't eat the rest.


    So i don't think we're abusing our children. Henry is very proud to tell people that we are vegetarians and we are trying to give them the information they need to make informed decisions and as they get older that information will become more full on and involve watching documentaries and the suchlike.


    They both eat a brilliant range of mostly home grown veg and fruit and most of what we cook at home is borderline vegan with only a small amount of moo juice products these days as i despise the dairy industry and want out of it.


    In my humble opinion, feeding children MacDonalds is abuse....as is feeding children anything containing aspartame and monosodium glutamate!!


    Our parents and families are all very respectful of us being vegetarian - lee has been veggie most of his life and i have been on and off for over 20 years... What made me go back to meat was piss poor nutrition but i have got a better handle on it all now and don't get anaemic like i used to.


    Children are born vegan and if breastfed remain vegan until food is introduced at the appropriate developmental stage... So the extension of the initial argument could be that it's abusive to breastfeed? Yeah...maybe not then :)


    As long as a child is loved and fed with good nutritional food that has been grown with love and not had to suffer at all, then I'm happy with that :)

  • I think this idea comes from people not understanding food. Growing children need lots of protein to grow their bodies. To many people meat is protein, and they aren't aware that you can get protein from other sources. Hence to their way of thinking by making children vegetarian you are depriving them of essential protein, hence abuse. It all comes down to lack of education about what we are eating and how to create a healthy diet.

  • there seems to be plenty of evidence linking violence in later life with abuse to animals in youth.


    Yes what you said is correct but i think you have slightly gotten he wrong end of the stick, its about ppl who torture animals not eat them who often tend to grow into serial killers.
    Also there has been plenty of serial killers who have also been veggie. I also understand that some veggies and vegans class eating meat as murder. But i assume you ment violence towards other humans

  • I think there is a huge problem labeling parents as commiting child abuse by making their children vegan/vegetiaian/meateaters


    It is a lifestyle choice and we on this forum should be very careful about labeling "likestyle choices" as abusive


    And is really different to what is really child abuse:
    neglect
    emotional
    physical
    sexual abuse

  • I think that if parents are feeding their kids an absolute shite excuse of a diet, then of course it's abuse - no, it's not in the same league as administering a beating, and its acceptability means parents rarely realise what they're doing - but it's still paving the way for an unhealthy adulthood filled with contradictory ethics.


    Ergo, neglecting your kid's diet potentially leads to both physical and emotional issues in later life.

  • I believe restricting a child's diet is abusive as it can have long term health issues. I also believe that this is not confined to vegetarian or vegan diets but any diet that could be lacking in essential nutrients. I would be equally concerned if a child was fed on a low fat diet or a meat only diet. It just so happens that the thread the original quote was taken from was discussion about veganism from the perspective of someone who's opening line was "I fucking hate people" or something similar.


    I have been a little bit nervous of posting in my defence in this thread because it is in a section that is virtually out of bounds to my beliefs


    Paul

  • I have been a little bit nervous of posting in my defence in this thread because it is in a section that is virtually out of bounds to my beliefs

    I moved the thread into the "parenting" section yesterday.


    Now there will always be people who say "you don't have kids, you can't comment", but everyone on here has been a child and should therefore be aware of the issues that affected them.

  • It is kids who get a crap diet that are being abused, whether it includes meat or not.


    In my experience most veggies will be better at giving a more nutritious balanced diet because they know they are deliberately excluding a food group and do not want to hurt their precious pooping, puking, screaming bundle of joy.


    As regards those who say they will be missing out on essential nutrients it is actually the other way round in terms of diet abuse. Vegetables contain more of the essential nutrients for development than meat. Meat is needed for a reasonable few but with modern supplements these can be more readily replaced than the multitude of essential trace stuff in vegetables.


    So the pizza and chicken nugget brigade are doing more harm than the broccoli and beans brigade.


    Ian
    (Omnivore)