How we are percieved by others

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  • :clap::clap::clap:


    Amazing this is pretty much what I wanted to say.


    If it is all hippy bollocks of "its whats inside that count" then yeah it doesnt fucking matter what I look like. I'd hate to think that all I was was a tie dye jumper and knotted hair and somehow removing that makes me a boring non-person, I'm still the same nutter inside.




    What is fucking pissing me off is idle hippy bastards sat stoned off their tits on the dole ranting about "the maaan" and selling out. If anything is making me want to get the fuck away even faster.


    I am on a bit on an anti hippy rage, but its dying down :whistle: I did cut my dreads off a few days after I started this thread and I don't regret it. It's insane how differently people are treating me. I'm being treated like I'm more intelligent, apparently I'm way more attractive :o and I haven't had anyone shout abuse at me yet! woohoo! ?(it will happen though... "BULLDYKE!"


    Yeah there is negative stereotyping attached to everything, but hippy is a weird one in that its mostly negative, and acceptable. It's socially fine for someone to suggest my pockets are full of weed, but for example mentioning every day to a muslim she may have a bomb under her burqa isn't socially acceptable, neither would asking a blonde female college to get her tits out etc etc These are all negative stereotypes worth fighting against.


    hippy is a FASHION. Therefore cannot be taken seriously. You could say the same for any subculture... its all fashion. therefore it's not a real issue, yeah you're expressing yourself great but theres a million ways you can do that, but there really are more important things in the world to rally against.


    Not looking like a woodstock dropout doesn't necessarily = grey high street clone.


    I thought about it... but seriously I do not "get" normal clothes and I'd feel like a dick in them, it really isn't me.


    I just mean smartening myself up, I've started to but I don't have enough money for clothes at the minute, might do some charity shopping later though. I can still be a bit different and have my own thing going on, but just in a .. smarter way.. I cant think of another way to put it...


    yeah

    All the folk that she forgot sing and dance and watch her rot! Homeless, hopeless, poor and ill, come and drink your fill. "No such thing as society?’ No such thing as Maggie....!

  • When I was pre-twenties I did dress a bit, different, maybe to shock, maybe to put up a barrier.
    Over the years having children and various jobs which involve dress code I have mellowed, and smart for me means *clean* jeans with no holes, *clean* walking boots, t-shirt/shirt/top/hoodie without a band name on and *clean* hair and body.

  • That's it groove st, I mean the same, clothes that arent holey or got paint on or chopped up :D

    All the folk that she forgot sing and dance and watch her rot! Homeless, hopeless, poor and ill, come and drink your fill. "No such thing as society?’ No such thing as Maggie....!

  • I often get looked at as a nasty bastard of a biker more so if i've not got my glasses on as i squint a bit and it makes me look angry , and yer i tend to dress biker as i am a biker ,but when people get to know me the find i don't bite the heads of chickens and juggle chain saw's . If i'm going out smart i tend to do the country side sort of look hike boots, clean jeans , clean checked shirt ect ect . It don't matter what you look like its about the person in side thats counts i think .

  • I often get looked at as a nasty bastard of a biker more so if i've not got my glasses on as i squint a bit and it makes me look angry , and yer i tend to dress biker as i am a biker ,but when people get to know me the find i don't bite the heads of chickens and juggle chain saw's . If i'm going out smart i tend to do the country side sort of look hike boots, clean jeans , clean checked shirt ect ect . It don't matter what you look like its about the person in side thats counts i think .

    The people who know you remember the sparkly flip flop, naked in a bucket moments too :-)


  • Yes a subculture, such as "hippie" is a "club" if you like. True originality is virtually impossible as we are influenced constantly, consciously and unconsciously, by advertising, social pressure etc. However, to chose to express yourself by adopting a set of clothing, for example, associated with a particular subculture is not conforming. Conforming is defined as: "Conformity is the act of matching attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors to what individuals perceive is normal to their society or social group." By dressing "hippie", you are not conforming, because you are not striving to live up to the mainstream social norms.


    Naked? PJs? Cushion Cover? Well, I'd defend the rights of anyone that chose to express themselves that way. There are in fact large communities of nudists that do express themselves by being nude whenever possible! And, I don't know where you're from, but round here (Merseyside) it is not at all uncommon for people to go to the supermarket in their pjs!


    Of course what is inside is all there is. That is obvious. However, what is the problem with someone choosing to express how they see themselves, as they are 'inside', by dressing or wearing their hair in a particular way? It's not about convincing anybody of anything, that completely misses the point. Whilst I don't doubt that there are some who dress alternatively for this reason, that is not the position I am defending. I am defending utilising your appearance creatively as a valid form of self-expression.


    I disagree profoundly that hippie is a "FASHION". The fact that anyone believes that saddens me. Hippie is a set of values that are far beyond how you chose to adorn your body or wear your hair. Nor is the same true for "any other subgroup". Goth, Punk or whatever else are attached to a set of values, a way of perceiving and being in the world. And if you feel that saying that undermines my defence of external self expression, then you haven't understood what I am trying to say.


    The clothes and hairstyles are a way of expressing outwardly what you feel inside, your values, beliefs etc. They are not the be all and end all of being "alternative". I dress fairly normally myself, as I've said earlier in this thread.


    This article sums up what "hippie" is, and its way more than a "FASHION": http://www.hippy.com/modules.p…e=News&file=article&sid=9

  • Hippie is a fashion. Goth is a fashion. Punk is a fashion.


    People just don't like the word fashion.


    So I am not allowed to wear black clothes without listening to The Mission?


    Do I have to be vegetarian to wear hemp?


    Yeah there could be a set of things that define "hippy attitudes" whatever but they aren't intrinsically linked with clothing.


    You can wear hand knitted yogurt woven burlap and still be a cock.


    You can wear "norm" clothing and be a strong advocate of animal rights, human rights, a festival organiser.. whatever million things people squeeze under hippy label.


    In my personal experience the people who bang on 24/7 about being a hippy and hippy identity or the man or whatever are the ones who act the least "hippy" when it comes to actually following words with actions.


    Everybody judges by appearence, even hippies. "eurgh look at so and so what a sheeeeeeep" when having no idea about who the person is. Whilst sat around with peers all wearing the same hippy branded clothing...


    All the folk that she forgot sing and dance and watch her rot! Homeless, hopeless, poor and ill, come and drink your fill. "No such thing as society?’ No such thing as Maggie....!

  • Conforming is defined as: "Conformity is the act of matching attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors to what individuals perceive is normal to their society or social group." By dressing "hippie", you are not conforming, because you are not striving to live up to the mainstream social norms.


    you may not be striving to live up to mainstream societal norms butif conformity is, as you say, 'matching attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors to what individuals perceive is normal to their society or social group' then it appears you just shot yourself in the foot with your own argument...


    However, what is the problem with someone choosing to express how they see themselves, as they are 'inside', by dressing or wearing their hair in a particular way? It's not about convincing anybody of anything, that completely misses the point. Whilst I don't doubt that there are some who dress alternatively for this reason, that is not the position I am defending. I am defending utilising your appearance creatively as a valid form of self-expression.


    I disagree profoundly that hippie is a "FASHION". The fact that anyone believes that saddens me. Hippie is a set of values that are far beyond how you chose to adorn your body or wear your hair. Nor is the same true for "any other subgroup". Goth, Punk or whatever else are attached to a set of values, a way of perceiving and being in the world. And if you feel that saying that undermines my defence of external self expression, then you haven't understood what I am trying to say.


    And I'm saying is that if you judge the people that you see as 'conforming' because they choose not to self-express with fashion then you're as narrow-minded as the people that you appear to be looking down on. Which smacks of hypocrisy, tbh. Some of the most *alternative* people I've ever met really don't look very alternative at all. Why would you look at a man in a suit and assume you know anything about his beliefs? Why should my 'hippy' values be more *viable* just because I attune my dress-sense to give other people a visual clue about what I might believe? What's so frigging 'genuine' about always wearing the same fucking counterculture uniform?

  • And I'm saying is that if you judge the people that you see as 'conforming' because they choose not to self-express with fashion then you're as narrow-minded as the people that you appear to be looking down on. Which smacks of hypocrisy, tbh. Some of the most *alternative* people I've ever met really don't look very alternative at all. Why would you look at a man in a suit and assume you know anything about his beliefs? Why should my 'hippy' values be more *viable* just because I attune my dress-sense to give other people a visual clue about what I might believe? What's so frigging 'genuine' about always wearing the same fucking counterculture uniform?


    :wall:


    First thing's first, I'm not judging anybody, or looking down on anybody, I'm expressing an opinion. This is a discussion / debate. Expressing divergent opinions and weighing up their respective merit is what you do. You have just made a massive, and pretty offensive judgement about me without knowing anything about me. Would you like to point to anything I have posted which indicates that I am "looking down on" anybody?


    You also obviously haven't read my responses properly and/or have misunderstood what I am saying, because I agree whole heartedly that being "alternative" is about your values, not how you dress. I said in my last post, that appearance is not the "be all and end all" of being alternative, and stated that I dress pretty normally (whatever that is) myself. I have not argued once that being hippie is anything to do with clothing or appearance.


    I'm not talking about people who choose not to self-express with fashion. I haven't made a single statement in this thread to comes close to saying that. Throughout this whole thread, I'm talking about people who do self-express through fashion choosing no longer to do so for reasons of conformity. It's all about motive, as I have said more than once. It's one thing somebody choosing to change their appearance because they no longer feel like dressing that way or wish to express in a different way. It's another thing entirely somebody changing something (anything) about themselves in order to feel accepted. The only point I've tried to make throughout is that you shouldn't change who you are for other people or for the 'wrong' reasons.

  • Perhaps I have misunderstood what you're saying because although you don't mean to you still sound like a judgemental fashion victim to me. What are 'the wrong reasons'? To feel accepted? We all want to be accepted by someone. Including you with your desire for dreads because otherwise, why feel the need to declare it?


    To get a better-paid job so that you can afford to live the way you want? Is that 'the wrong reason'? If we want to change for other people, is that still the wrong reason - after all it would still be our choice to do that. If our lover hates brown shoes or likes us with a fringe should we say "fuck you, I'm keeping my brogues?" or are we selling out if we say, "Fine, those brown shoes really aren't important to me." If someone wants to 'conform', who are you to judge their motive? Especially since you're doing the exact same thing, only choosing to conform to a different *industry standard*, as it were.


    Your choice of quote initially: 'You laugh at me for being different. I pity you for being the same' spoke volumes and I think is pretty patronising. 'You laugh at me for being different. I pity you for being a thick twat' - now that would make a lot more sense imo.

  • The world would be a very dark place if everybody looked the same,I think.......if you are a good person,regardless of what demographic you may,or may not be happy with....if you are a sound enough dude....well??....I guess,you wouldn't really care what anybody is wearing.(More to the point,you can expand on that and include race,faith,hair colour,bla bla bla)...I am a hairy,tattoo'd pierced up,scruffy biker-boaty bloke,a little too beligerent to be a true hippy,and too conditioned to say "fuk it" and live a "true" nomadic lifestyle...I wear what I feel happy to be in,what doesn't fall apart,and what I can buy for fk all,and if that means combats n t shirts,or a "borrowed" donkey jacket or high viz? ......well so be it!

    I live on a sound lil Narrowboat with me dog.pagan and happy in my skin,single and chilled

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mungo ().

  • Sorry if I came on a bit strong in my last post, I just felt really frustrated and misunderstood, by both yourself (spiralite) and Neyni.
    Maybe it's my fault for not expressing what I'm trying to say very well... It is not my intention to judge anybody. I am human and I do judge, we can't help it. However, you wouldn't believe how hard I try to be non-judgmental and accepting in my everyday life, as both a Buddhist and trainee Person Centred Counsellor, therefore you touched a raw nerve by calling me judgemental or suggesting that I have looked down on anybody. I don't think I have been judgemental in this thread though - stating an opinion isn't the same as judging somebody. I take every person I meet on face value and get to know them as an individual. This is a hypothetical discussion / debate for me, I wouldn't form any judgements about somebody in a suit / tracksuit or in any other form of attire. Or if, being human, some kind of judgement did arise, I would put it aside and try to find out who that person really is.


    Nor would any one who knows me consider me a fashion victim. From being at school I always refused to follow the dominant fashion. On non-uniform day, everybody came in wearing tracksuits and I wore black cords and black polar neck (I thought I was John Lennon!) and the teacher remarked that I was the only one that had not still come in uniform. I just dress how I dress, mostly just jeans and t-shirt these days.


    My personal view is that whilst we need to moderate our behaviour out of consideration to other people in order to live in a society (i.e. refrain from aggression, violence, theft, discrimination etc), beyond these obviously harmful attitudes and actions we should be congruent with or true to our authentic self (our genuine, spontaneous, intuitive inner voice / internal valuing system). So I'm basically saying that I don't believe you should change something about yourself (your choice of dress, hair style, your political or spiritual views, your choice of leisure activity etc etc), for somebody else unless that behaviour / attitude is harmful or oppressive to others.


    If in the course of a relationship your partner asks you to change something, then I would personally weigh up the request. I would personally find it quite controlling and oppressive if my partner could veto my "brown brogues" or whatever other item of clothing or hair style. What impact does my choice of footware have on her? I am my own person and I prize my independence and individuality (in so much as that term means anything, because there isn't really any such thing as individuality!). Early in our relationship we would do that to each other, but now we have an agreement were we are each our full authentic selves whilst accepting the other as their full authentic self without trying to change them in any way. So in a way, though I'd be more polite about it, yes I would say "Fuck it I'm keeping my brogues!". Not because they are important to me, but on the principle that someone who loves me should accept me as I am, for my whole self, even if my shoes are naff! They're free to give me fashion advice or suggest I'd suit XYZ, but if I like the Brogues, and they aren't in any way harming or oppressing anybody, they are staying! And I would extend the same acceptance to her - she regular buys and wears things that I would not have chosen, but that's her right and I just keep my mouth shut (unless she asks me) and accept her for how she is.


    Getting a better paid job? Well, I guess that depends on how much you value your career. Personally (and see this as a hippie cliche if you like, but it is genuinely my world view and long precedes any connection I feel with being "hippie" in any way) I just see that as part of the hamster wheel of work-consume-work-consume, which in an ideal world I would not be a part of. Unfortunately, I don't really feel I have a choice about that! Yes we need to work, yes we need to earn enough to support ourselves and our families. It is important to me to work in a role that meets my personal values so I would prefer, if I have the choice, to work in a field in which I don't have to change anything about who I feel I am. If I had no choice, I would have course take any job I could, in the current climate especially. Everybody needs to eat.


    The 'wrong' reasons to 'conform'? Well, that comes down entirely to a person's individual values and priorities. That's why I made a point of putting wrong in inverted commas. There is no such thing as universal right and wrong, in my view. What is right for me is not what is right for you. I'm just expressing my opinion that difference and diversity are beautiful, whether or not people are truly eccentric / unique (perhaps impossible) or cluster in to like minded sub-groups that they feel match their values or way of expressing themselves.


    I guess I'm arguing three things:


    1) Dress / hairstyle is a valid form of self-expression, if you choose to use it. You do not have to.
    2) That 'conforming' to a sub-group may still be conforming (depending on how you define the word), but it is a pro-active choice, with values attached to it (you are expressing outwardly your inner values) whereas conforming to the mainstream (looking like a Burton's window mannequin for example) isn't a true choice in the same way (you are passively accepting the status quo or mainstream fashion)
    3) That any change you make in relation to this, or anything else, should be for you, not for somebody else. (the motive argument)


    Importantly. I am not saying that anybody "should" dress "hippie" or any other way. I'm merely defending the validity of those that do (of which I don't even really see myself as one!)

    What industry standard am I conforming to wearing jeans a t-shirt? I'm just wearing what is comfortable. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about me wanting to be accepted with my desire for dreads (started them four days ago :) ). Who by? I don't know anybody with dreads in "real life". If anything it will alienate me from people I know! (though I hope not) I am the only person in my social circle who identifies with 'hippie' values so it isn't going to win me any street cred with any body! For me, choosing to start my dreadlocks is a form of self-expression, a journey and yes, a statement about how I see myself and the world. I don't think that makes me a fashion victim, but each to their own!


    Yes, you're right, we do all feel a need to feel accepted or to belong to something (hence why I don't think there is anything wrong particularly with being part of a sub-group). However, I think it is healthier to be accepted for who you are, your whole self, rather than changing yourself in order to be accepted. The original poster stated "I'm comfortable in my appearance physically, but other people not so much" and that she was contemplating changing her appearance "in order to be taken more seriously".Therefore, from her own statement, she is making a change not for her but because of the perceptions other people have of her. In my humble opinion, that is the 'wrong' reason to make a change, but that is just my opinion and I'm not judging anybody. The original poster put this out here on the forum and asked for people's views, I've simply given mine.

  • I spent over twenty years wearing a naval uniform,nowadays my hair is down my back,have no sense of fashion or style,dress in what i feel comfortable in,dont give a damn what people think of my dress sense or my life style. It suits ME.
    I never judge anyone by their clothes or appearance,far too many plastic people about in all walks of life.

  • I spent over twenty years wearing a naval uniform,nowadays my hair is down my back,have no sense of fashion or style,dress in what i feel comfortable in,dont give a damn what people think of my dress sense or my life style. It suits ME.I never judge anyone by their clothes or appearance,far too many plastic people about in all walks of life.

    You have a very unique style, its called 'Grandpa Biker Pirate' and it suits you perfectly :D

  • I blame my education for teaching me to express only what i'm taught to express, and evolution for making people evolve faster than is naturally healthy..too many people in small places...outcast animals etc.. I am an outcast animal, trying to survive in a world of competition, control, and fear...I blame me...

  • It's virtually impossible not to judge people by their appearance because we all have built in prejudices. If you dressed the same person in two differant outfits. One in branded hoodie, tracky bottoms and branded trainers with very short hair and then again in colourful shirt, heavy cottom trousers and long hair. Most people, if not all (if you are truely honest) would pursieve the same person in two differant ways. Depending on who you are, you will find one outfit more appealing than the other or you could be repelled by both, preferring a suit, shirt & tie, leathers or whatever. The thing is to feel comfortable in yourself and dress in what makes you comfortable. If you are concerned with "fitting in" then dress to "fit in". Clothes are only there to keep us warm. I don't dress either fashionably or alternative. It's what is inside a person that matters not what they wear or how they wear their hair. To dress in a "style" you have to be comfortable in it. Neyni you've made a discission to cut your hair to feel more accepted it sounds like it's worked for you, I'm glad. We're all different, embrace it.

  • I've sort of been following this discussion and want to post a proper reply but I need to read over it again! which I dont have time for at the moment. But I wanted to post this video (which you may have seen before) because it seems relevent to things and I wander about peoples thoughts on it.

  • It's one thing somebody choosing to change their appearance because they no longer feel like dressing that way or wish to express in a different way. It's another thing entirely somebody changing something (anything) about themselves in order to feel accepted. The only point I've tried to make throughout is that you shouldn't change who you are for other people or for the 'wrong' reasons.


    What happens if the way other people react to you and treat you is making you genuinely miserable though? If in the area you live in, or the people you unluckily continue to meet, you find yourself getting regular abuse/name-calling/unacceptable approaches (e.g. sexual). When I was younger I used to dress 'emo' (though marginally before it became mainstream so it was more 'goth' then) e.g. new rocks, mini skirts, fishnet tops/tights etc. I noticed a huge difference in sexual attention when I dressed this way, and when I was say, out in my school uniform, or in jeans/t-shirt.
    Would it be a 'wrong' reason to stop dressing in this manner, which I felt at the time expressed me, because I no longer wished to have such attention?


    I also remember at school, when I was about 12, deciding to be a bit 'punk' (not that I really knew what it meant). I went into school with one French plait on my right side, and the left side of my hair down. I felt like I was being very wild/exciting :P Being laughed at all day put an end to that one and I ended up plaiting the other side before school was finished.
    I also recall preferring long skirts at a similar age (perhaps 11) and I wore one in on a mufti (non uniform day) and got teased something horrible (inc. older boys saying things like 'I wouldn't do her, she's in a *skirt*' - the disturbingness of the fact he might 'do' an 11 yr old at all was lost on me at the time). I was wearing what I thought was a nice cardi, but was so humiliated I kept my coat on all day. Future mufti days I made sure I wore jeans and t-shirts from New Look like everyone else.


    Was that wrong? What did that conformity cost me? What would continuing to dress in ways I thought looked nice/was comfortable have cost me? If I had had a higher level of confidence or self-esteem, I could have thrown it back in their faces, laughed along with them, made it not a big deal. But I didn't, and it was so important at that age to fit in and be accepted.
    Did I sell out? Did I lose some aspect of myself? I'll never know. But I had friends and I didn't get laughed at, and at the time that felt more important.


    In an ideal world people would not have to change for other people. In this world, other people's behaviour has on occasion made it impossible to do otherwise.
    Sometimes it is safer to blend in a little more. Depending on your life experiences, how weary you are grown of abuse/attention you do not want, your preference for peace will overcome your desire to express yourself.
    That is a sad state of affairs. But there is truth in it.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

    The post was edited 1 time, last by elfqueenofrohan ().

  • this is a really interesting thread. In the just the same way views and opinions vary on how someone looks, so does the opinion on why people want to look different.
    I have spent years trying to be taken seriously, as a woman, as a long haired, blondish/reddish, pale skinned sun dodger.
    Now, this is not to be confused with trying to conform. Theres conforming to fit in, but theres finding a way to be accepted without conforming too much. Im a photographer, a designer, and a motorbiker, a sailor, a cyclist. All of these are male majority occupations and interests. Men, generally speaking, not all, definitely NOT all men, but the good average of men does not find it easy to take a youthful looking, long blonde haired woman seriously. It's not their fault. their prejudice comes from deep society roots.
    SO how to get around this small irksom problem of wanting to be succesful and taken seriously in my chosen fields of interest, without having to be someone im not?
    Ive tried dressing like a boy. doesnt work. Im too female looking.
    Ive tried getting people to call me by my initials to de-sex me. thats worked a bit.
    Ive tried being forceful/slightly aggressive, just makes people think im a bitch
    Ive tried showing no emotion, just makes people think i have no heart.
    Ive dressed flirty, it just makes people focus on my tits or a location not far from them... rather than any words i might have to say
    ive dressed conservatively. I cover my arms, my neckline, my knees, I wear sensible shoes. This has worked, people are not distracted by my clothes or my body because they cant see it. They listen to what I have to say. unless I wear to much make up or wear my hair down... there goes that distraction again.
    the biggest thing that caused an overnight change, was one day I had all my hair cut off.
    INSTANT change in the way people spoke to me. I went from being a girl to a woman. (not in age, I was in my 30's)


    how could something as simple as a hair style change my ability to be taken seriously? It made me look at my own prejudices. I too was guilty of judging people by their hair. Dreadlocked people, i thought were dirty, WRONG. shaved headed people, I thought were rascists. WRONG. Long blonde haired women, air headed Bimbos. WRONG.
    I genuinely dont think I judge people by their clothes, the habit, doesnt make the nun. neither does wearing hippyish clothes make you a hippy or a suit make you a business person.


    when someone has facial piercings all over the place, I often wonder why they did that. I dont judge them as anything really, I just wonder if they are looking for a bit of attention? because I dont think its very practical or comfortable to have pieces of metal going through your flesh huundreds of times. but maybe it is for some people.
    But in the same way I enjoy dressing up in rubber and pvc, there is a time and a place. the clothes can be changed. quickly. I go to work in clothes that are acceptable (but still intrinsicly "me) I wear what I like in private. our hair is a slower process and public.
    If I had dreadlocks I would have them at work and at play. true, they can be tied up or let down, but they are still there.
    just as I have long hair (again, I grew it back after 3 years) I enjoy having long hair, but now I realise, tucking it away, hide it under a hat, plait it and whatnot, helps me be taken more seriously than letting it fly freely all the time.


    our clothes say so much about us. What we choose to wear and when, says a lot about us. It doesnt make us who we are though.
    Our jobs if we work for another company other than ourselves, is also not who we are. so, if we consider what we wear to work as a uniform, to conform to the company we work for then put a uniform on. a shirt and trousers, a tie maybe. a smart suit. If you object to dressing according to the company, work for a company that doesnt require this.
    My company is great. Im allowed to wear what I like. more or less. I can wear jeans, I can dress smartly. Whatever mood takes me in the morning I dress like that.
    most fridays I have my dressing up day. I put a dress on or something nice. I make an effort with my hair and makeup. I enjoy it because its different. I dont have bags of money, so I quite often make my dress or buy something from a charity shop and alter it to my own quirky style.
    If I go to an interview, I dress as me, a smart version of me. so its quirky but smart. I remove distractions, not too much flesh, not too much hair, not too much makeup, no massive earings or jewellery. in an interview I want them to judge me on what I say and not what I look like.


    the trick is fooling people into not being distracted by the wrappings. When Im ifinally in there with my foot in the door... I can slowly reveal my inner self through visual expression, because only once someone has formed their opinion of me as a person, can I actually start to really be myself.
    Its a crazy social game we all have to play to some extent or other.

  • neonpixie - I'm typing this in work and am not able to see your video here. Will watch it later and reply again.


    elfqueenofrohan - I understand what you are saying... and it's difficult in a situation like school when you don't have much choice about who you associate with. Obviously, as an adult you have no reason to maintain contact with anybody that treats you that way and can simply minimise or eliminate your contact with the people involved (as you would with anybody who is extremely negative or abusive in any way). If it is in a work situation (where you also have a limited degree of choice about who you spend time with, though ultimately you could find another job if that is feasible) I'd consider going down the formal route of taking out a grievance / complaint. Bullying is unacceptable for any reason and should be challenged whereever it arises.


    We are all different and react differently to different kinds of behaviour - I'ts not my place to say what you or anyone in that position should have done / should do because I'm not you and not seeing the world through your eyes, with your experiences.


    I think part of the reason I feel so strongly about anti-conformity (to the mainstream), is the type of experience that you describe. I, and probably many people on this forum, have had similar experiences at school.


    Look at the Campaign for Sophie about the girl who was beaten to death because she looked different (goth). Look at the gay teenagers that commit suicide because of bullying in school and online... it's so sad, and makes me so angry :curse:


    The mentality that you aren't "OK" because you didn't buy your clothes from New Look / Top Shop / Burtons (*insert generic high street shop that happens to be fashionable and probably uses child labour abroad with poverty wages and exploitative employment and environmental practices!*) or wear your hair in whatever particularly style is currently "acceptable"... it really infuriates me. It's the same small minded mentality that causes racism and homophobia.


    Was 'conforming' wrong? I can't possibly say for the reasons I gave above. In an ideal world, I wouldn't advocate conforming because it gives the bullies what they want rather than standing up for your right to self-express and dress how they hell you like. But in the real world? You were a young (at that age probably insecure, weren't we all?) child trying to get through school in one piece. I completely understand anyone in that position doing what they can to make that time a little easier and feel a little safer.


    What did conformity cost you? Perhaps the strength of your convictions? Perhaps that little spark of individuality and creativity that wanted to be "wild/exciting" was sqaushed, discouraged and/or took until much later to flower, if at all? (a lot of people squashed in that way will never take the risk again and might even become the ones that laugh and skit at others that are 'different' in some way).
    What would continuing to dress in that way cost you? I don't know, perhaps a lot (loss of confidence, making fewer friends etc, perhaps even depression and/or anxiety) perhaps not, everybody is different.


    For me, bullying about being different at school (and beyond) made me more determined not to "conform", but then I was in the position of having parents that encouraged that way of thinking. I went through so many "phases" growing up trying to find out who I was, who I wanted to be, how I wanted to express and present myself, my mum in particular was great and just accepted each stage as who I felt I was at that time. Your self-concept (how you view yourself) is always changing, so how you express that self-concept is going to change. Because my dad is black (my mum is white) I was also brought up with a strong anti-racism (and anti prejudice / discrimination in general) world view and I made the connection that it tended to be the same small minded, ignorant people throwing stones at the door and shouting racist abuse about my dad that would laugh, skit and bully people who didn't look the same as everybody else because of their clothing / hair style. I suppose from there I saw it a bit like by refusing to give in to the pressure to conform I was taking a stand against that mentality. Some people might think that's silly, but that's how I've always felt.


    I enjoy expressing myself in my appearance in a way that is not mainstream (in my case these days that means wearing piercings, long hair -and now dreadlocks- and refusing to follow mainstream fashions or wear brand name clothing, shopping where possible from ethical, vegan, eco brands online) as a way of demonstrating my inner values outwardly as well as demonstrating that I don't agree with or accept many of the values and practices of mainstream culture. A kind of "not in my name" response to capitalism, materialism, the work-consume-work-consume hamster wheel, poverty, racism, war, conformity, disconnection from nature, destruction of the environment, petty hatred and division, the unneccessary suffering and death of animals for food etc. etc.


    Again people might say that's silly, or ask, how does having piercings / dreadlocks and wearing non-branded clothing give that message to joe bloggs on the street? Well it doesn't, it's more for me really, just an outward expression of how I try live my life (Be the Change you wish to see in the world). I know some people might dress "alternative" for very different reasons (because it looks cool! :rolleyes: ) but I think, below the surface, there is always a sense of alienation or difference from the mainstream that motivates that kind of decision.

  • Like Varekai I have worked in industries which are male-dominated. While I've been lucky with my choice of workmates on the whole, being quite slight and having long blonde hair meant that working as road crew for a PA company I came in for a lot of sexist flak from some of the people I was doing jobs for, even though my boss proudly proclaimed thatI did the work of eleven men and was one of the best people he'd ever employed.


    But that was in my twenties. My shape and style have shifted over time.


    I remember as a 17 yr old goth being spat at through the window of my friend's car as we were on our way home from the pub. As we sped away a beer bottle shattered on the boot, narrowly missing the rear window.


    This was only a few miles from where Sophie Lancaster was murdered, but about twenty years earlier. Plus ca change, eh?


    Later on I moved to Bristol and by then I had deliberately, and for my own reasons, toned down my 'public image'. Anonymity was beneficial to me at that point. I hadn't changed in myself, but the way self-styled *alternatives* treated me did. According to one oh-so-fucking-alternative narrow-minded pierced gobshite twat, I looked like 'a social worker'. It wasn't said in a complimentary way. And he said it without having a fucking clue what I was about. Judgemental? Hell, yes.


    So therein lies my point - we are all judged by *somebody* and it pisses me off. So I try not to judge, except on words and attitudes. Now I have a wardrobe that I pick and choose from and I can be exactly what I choose, when I fucking want to.


    It's no coincidence that I don't have a profile pic.

  • I get judged and condemned all the time, ppl like that seem to be the majority, committed employees, the type that are slaves forced into a job to pay all their bills. That prisoned mentality seems to develop nasty unhelpful people who seek to release their anger and frustrations on someone who looks like a potential target.
    Interestingly, if you travel to other countries, you soon realise we are different but the same.


    The positive side, was in a pub midday, saw a girl - goth, all black clothes etc. the full monty, I moved over and started a conversation about her goth stuff. I sort of knew from previous experience she'd be chatty, she was. I've learnt "freeky looking" ppl are usually quite bright and chatty, whilst married stuck in an office are, usually horrible, desperate to conform with only blandness and only nasty things to say about you personally.

  • I get judged and condemned all the time, ppl like that seem to be the majority, committed employees, the type that are slaves forced into a job to pay all their bills. That prisoned mentality seems to develop nasty unhelpful people who seek to release their anger and frustrations on someone who looks like a potential target.
    Interestingly, if you travel to other countries, you soon realise we are different but the same.


    The positive side, was in a pub midday, saw a girl - goth, all black clothes etc. the full monty, I moved over and started a conversation about her goth stuff. I sort of knew from previous experience she'd be chatty, she was. I've learnt "freeky looking" ppl are usually quite bright and chatty, whilst married stuck in an office are, usually horrible, desperate to conform with only blandness and only nasty things to say about you personally.


    I am really glad the goth girl and you had a nice chat, she sounds lovely, but it really and truly does vary. If you start saying that people who are married or work in an office are horrible people, then you risk coming across as prejudiced yourself. Just be careful :) you don't want to go to far either way, stay open minded hippy retrofunk :flower:

  • I get judged and condemned all the time, ppl like that seem to be the majority, committed employees, the type that are slaves forced into a job to pay all their bills. That prisoned mentality seems to develop nasty unhelpful people who seek to release their anger and frustrations on someone who looks like a potential target.

    You say you are judged, but by saying everyone who works for a wage is a "slave" and "imprisoned" with a potential for nastiness is quite a condemning and judgemental statement in itself, and quite far from the truth in so many ways - and by making these negative judgements you're actually opening yourself up to not being accepted by them.


    I would comment on the rest of the thread but there's far to much writing to be bothered reading ... generally though, how other people perceive me, and the assumptions they make, is none of my business. Of course, that doesn't apply if I am deliberately trying to create an impression - but that's manipulating perception rather than being a victim to it.

  • I get judged and condemned all the time, ppl like that seem to be the majority, committed employees, the type that are slaves forced into a job to pay all their bills. That prisoned mentality seems to develop nasty unhelpful people who seek to release their anger and frustrations on someone who looks like a potential target.
    Interestingly, if you travel to other countries, you soon realise we are different but the same.


    The positive side, was in a pub midday, saw a girl - goth, all black clothes etc. the full monty, I moved over and started a conversation about her goth stuff. I sort of knew from previous experience she'd be chatty, she was. I've learnt "freeky looking" ppl are usually quite bright and chatty, whilst married stuck in an office are, usually horrible, desperate to conform with only blandness and only nasty things to say about you personally.


    Being married, and having worked in an office more often than not (to pay the bills :eek: ), there's a part of me reading that thinking "go fuck yourself, you judgemental twat", but y'know, I wouldn't want to say that as it would be impolite and I might come across as being nasty ;)


    I notice on your profile you've written your bad habit is being unintentionally offensive....... :whistle:

  • whoops!! I am not saying - everyone who works for a wage is a "slave"; ho hum.. usual misunderstanding; as a general example - I have worked in blue collar and white collar, the former are much easier, the latter usually difficult, petty arguments.
    Interesting comment about me being judgemental, yes it is true, but I get it all the time. It's not easy when ppl point the finger at you and say to your face/everyone in earshot - something nasty and untrue, it's one way to take control in the workplace. I've found if you don't respond, whatever has been said becomes the truth. I think it's probably one of those things where if you've not experienced it, difficult to comment. Anyway I'm not too bothered nowerdays.


    I have to admit, I'm wary of ppl on a message board who read and then quote things put in my profile. Interesting too you wanted to respond so negativly, that's my point, you read, took offence and dived in. Why not reflect for a moment, what does this guy mean, why do..? and so on. Yes open minded.


    Where's that flower smiley?..

  • Interesting too you wanted to respond so negativly, that's my point, you read, took offence and dived in. Why not reflect for a moment, what does this guy mean, why do..?

    This is called "transference". You say something offensive, then when someone takes offence, it's their fault for being offended. Bit arse-over-tit that, innit? ;)


  • I have to admit, I'm wary of ppl on a message board who read and then quote things put in my profile.


    It's funny how people put information into the public domain and then get concerned when other people take it into account :whistle:


    Quote

    Interesting too you wanted to respond so negativly, that's my point, you read, took offence and dived in. Why not reflect for a moment, what does this guy mean, why do..? and so on. Yes open minded..


    No, I didn't take offence - I was making a point. Why not reflect on that thought for a moment, did that girl truly take offence or was there a deeper meaning behind the reaction? And so on. Y'know, in an open minded way ;)