Forgiveness

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  • Forgiveness can be used as a weapon, you will usually be aware of the difference though, my wife said she forgave me the other day for something and it felt real and completely in context with the proceeding situation.
    but if my ex tries to issue forgiveness for my behaviour in the last few days then it would be empty and a way of getting one over on me, as usual.
    We might forgive people eventually but not forget and certainly be keep them at arms length if they are vexatious and bring us down, maybe you can forgive things like infidelity or even violence but it should be with a look at the relationship and what caused the pain in the first place.

  • Forgiving is very good for the person doing the forgiving. It means that you can let go of anger and resentments. It takes up way to much energy to hate someone for what they have done. I like this video on forgiveness by Ajahn Brahm...I love all his videos [video=youtube_share;pMWLk4NR3RI]

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    OOOO that is a beautiful video.
    "Can't we learn from that and instead of visiting justice on others say 'I am never going to do that to anybody else' "


    "We acknowledge the pain, we forgive it, we don't want to punish back"



    I have thought specifically in the past 'I never let things go, I should work on that' and also 'Everyone deserves forgiveness, even those who do terrible unspeakable things'. I think I still believe the latter.


    It does a victim of a terrible action no good to dwell on it for the rest of their lives. It can help people to let go if they recognise the reasons behind the actions and the limitations of the person who hurt them and accept the limitations of that person. Feelings of anger, hate or resentment, self pitty and desire to punish can be replaced by feelings of acceptance, understanding and pitty for the person who is so damaged that they go around hurting instead of loving.


    Forgiveness doesn't mean that murdered pedophiles, theives, rapists, vandals, liars or anyone who does wrongs should be allowed to continue with no form of intervention. It is a risky business for us humans to go round intervening mind you. Right? Maybe that is why if you believe in a God of that wort it should be left up to him.


    In the case of a cheating partner, or a betrayal of friendship, it is posible to forgive but also to choose not have that person in your life for the sake of protecting yourself.


    In the case of a pedophile or rapist I would opt for locking them away, in the logical knowledge that it is not safe for the other people of the world (who we all want to protect) for him or her to continue to live as normal, but to forgive and not harbour emotional ill will for him or her as much as is possible. I have heard a lot of people saying that rapists and abusers of children should be castrated, tortured and mutilated. I think that is a pretty bad sign for the well being of the people who say such things.



    so what do people want when then ask for forgiveness? are they looking for someone to take away the pain of them feeling like a bit of a knob? cos to my mind that totally misses the point of making a mistake


    That's a really good point. I am still pondering the idea of what forgiveness is, so just take it that I have a working idea of the concept.


    One definition is 'Stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for an offense, flaw, or mistake.'


    If somebody begs for forgiveness perhaps they really need to learn to forgive themselves. The person they have 'wronged' (or whatever it may be) has their own choices about how they deal the situation, weather or not they want that person in their lives, weather or not they understand, empathise, sympathise, forget, move on, let go, distance themselves, hang on, resent, or whatever.


    By that logic it should not be for a person to beg forgiveness of another person. If they feel guilt or regret or pain how can another person saying 'i don't mind that you really hurt me' make that go away? I guess they must tackle those emotions themselves.



    It also saddens me to see people hold onto resentments, because it's the worst aspects of humanity made manifest.


    I agree with this very much. Resentments can cause so much damage. No one should hold onto resentments.





    I recently forgave somebody for a situation and told them very clearly that I wanted them to know that. I think it did a lot more for me than it did for them, though they didn't mind :). They told me that they had forgiven me also, but it didn't make my feelings about the situation go away, only the fear of them hating me, which they obviousely do not. I am now reminded that I thought a great deal about clearly forgiving myself and about weather I could let go of the judegements I made about myself. Perhaps it is not a simple one step proccess.

  • I try to forgive, and I think I do pretty well on most things. However, I have tried to forgive a few things that I just find I can't - lying and deception are things I have a big problem with. I sometimes wish I could forgive and forget, but I find forgiveness very tough when its to do with someone breaking my trust.

    Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass; its about learning to dance in the rain.

  • Hi Stu, I knew you would ask a question...... I have never found an advantage to me or my kin by forgiving, only disadvantages or problems. Selfish in your eyes maybe but a sustaining and survival enhancing behaviour from mine.
    Have a real happy new year and keep pondering and questioning. you are a voice of logic and sanity in a crazy world.


    :waves:

  • Hi Stu, I knew you would ask a question......

    Hang about. Haven't we already had this conversation a page back? :S


    As I already said, I don't think "never forgiving or forgetting" is an emotionally healthy attitude.


    Quote

    I have never found an advantage to me or my kin by forgiving, only disadvantages or problems. Selfish in your eyes maybe but a sustaining and survival enhancing behaviour from mine.

    I don't view it as "selfish". I view it as unhealthy. Forgiveness is just as important to the person doing the forgiving as it is to the person being forgiven. :shrug:


    "Disadvantages and problems" can only be caused if (a) you forgive and forget when the person hasn't learned from their mistakes, or (b) you're unable to let go of your own anger and resentment. If we assume it's not (b), then that only leaves (a). In which instance, the problems you've had aren't the result of "forgiving and forgetting" - they're the the result of "forgiving and forgetting" the wrong people at the wrong time.

  • Aside from issues to do with my parents and my childhood, I don't really feel I've had anything happen to me in life that I feel I need to forgive someone for. Nobody (to my knowledge) has done anything that warrents me feeling like they should or shouldn't be forgiven for their actions. Maybe I've had a fortunate life or maybe things don't upset me enough for me to have to think if I'm going to forgive someone.

  • As you wish, though I would say I choose.
    I do wonder why you feel the need to disect, analyse and generally choose to look at the negative side of comments and/ or, be extremely rude or dismissive of other peoples' feelings or points of view.
    I have now taken note of your comments and have ceased to read further or post not only on this thread but on this forum.
    A shame that you have such a problem. I am not upset just sorry for you.
    As I have said to you before, I am very happy in my space and guard it from people such as you by dismissing you from it.
    Bye.

  • I do wonder why you feel the need to disect, analyse and generally choose to look at the negative side of comments and/ or, be extremely rude or dismissive of other peoples' feelings or points of view.

    I feel the need to dissect and analyse, because as I've pointed out - it's a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss things, you are not obliged to. If you don't want to discuss things, then don't reply to comments - although the point of posting in the first place becomes a bit obscure. :S


    I find the notion of never forgiving or forgetting utterly negative. I'm not alone in that. The vast majority of psychologists, therapists, counsellors, priests, gurus and shaman would be in agreement with me on that point. So that's hardly "looking at the negative side", is it? No more than saying "killing people fucks you up" is "looking at the negative side".


    I'm not sure where you think I've been rude, other than pointing out that a lack of forgiveness is emotionally unhealthy. If you can't deal with that (fairly mainstream!) point of view in a thread like this, then maybe you're entirely correct not to participate any further. :shrug:


    Quote

    I have now taken note of your comments and have ceased to read further or post not only on this thread but on this forum.
    A shame that you have such a problem. I am not upset just sorry for you.
    As I have said to you before, I am very happy in my space and guard it from people such as you by dismissing you from it.
    Bye.

    Good luck with guarding your happy space from reality. You'll be glad to know that although I find your comments passive-aggressive and juvenile, I forgive you. ;) :waves:

  • For me, whether or not I forgive someone depends entirely on the scenario (what the person has done, how sorry they are, whether it was a typical act of their character or not, if I feel like I still trust them or not etc.) I can 'forgive' people in that I can move on, try to put the hurt behind me and start afresh with the person, but it takes a long time for me to rebuild trust after someone has hurt me, does that mean that I haven't totally forgiven them? I don't know :S. When it comes to major things like rape/abuse etc. I think it is totally different, although it is emotionally healthy to 'let go' of what has happened and try and move on in your own life, I think it is impossible to not feel any pain or disgust towards the other person ever again :S

  • I often wonder when I see a victim of a terrible crime,or the relatives of a victim,sat behind some desk,with a chief constable next to em,and a stack o media microphones in front of em.........and saying "I forgive the person for what they did". If it was my family or loved one(And without wanting to sound like a cockney thug) I would wanna either beat the living daylights out of them,and yeah lowering myself to their level,or secondly,want them locked up for a very very long time,not very hippy....but there you go.Forgiveness is subjective in my book..I can forgive people for fkn up,cos I do it all the time,its the human condition..I couldn't forgive a partner for lying with malice as the underlying reason,or a friend ripping me off,and let's face it,I could do a huge list of reasons...my children however,I love without any exception,and that kinda love transends reason,I could forgive them if the wrong-doing was against myself(I think that's what I am trying to say).....But don't quote me on any of this cos I am a bit mangled atm,and this thread looked as good as any.... :)

    I live on a sound lil Narrowboat with me dog.pagan and happy in my skin,single and chilled

  • Forgiveness is a difficult one for me. I've had consistent runs of being seriously fucked over, forgiving the person and having it happen again and again. In fact, this happened with two people. So, ultimately, I eventually cut them out of my life, but I don't think I've forgiven them this time.


    If we're talking about Atomik's dissection of the term, I can probably accept the person's remorse, but that's it. It makes it difficult with people that I love very much, because I can see that they're genuinely sorry and hurting, but lack of trust towards the human race in general renders me incapable of believing they won't hurt me again. I can let go of anger and resentment in some situations, but it takes a whole lot of good to partly erase the bad from the forefront of my mind.


    I need happy times to make the bad times easier to accept and move on. The two people I mentioned have never shown remorse and would still fuck me over given the chance now. That one I find very difficult to let go of. I can't stop feeling resentment towards them. Ironically, I still love one of them, the other I feel nothing for. Pity, maybe, but not hate I wouldn't say. It's more fear that she'll find herself in a position to hurt me again. That's really only the time I think about her.


    As for paedophiles, this I find tricky to answer. I don't think negatively of them to begin with :shrug: I loathe the acts they commit, and I truly feel an enormous sense of tragedy for the child/children in question. But I can't place blame on their shoulders. I could be wrong, I have been many times ;) But I believe that paedophiles don't target children out of malice. The term used by many paedophiles is 'love'; that they are simply 'loving' the child. So what, I'm supposed to send them to the chopping block because they have a very warped definition of the word love? No. I can't do that. I think, despite society telling us that paedophilia is wrong, they simply cannot understand that. I think they need help and they need to be kept away from children.
    But I absolutely do not hate them, so no forgiveness is required.

  • When you have a friend who's life was ruined by one of them Monsters,dragged thru the care system,on the game at 17,Bi Polar,and bounced around from one shitty relationship to another,sectioned,and pretty scar'd from her elbows down......all this because of the "twisted" notion of love from a child molester? Forgiveness? Sorry,I can't,and won't.....and I am not even the victim.....but there's the rub! Its a knock on effect,how many peoples lives are ruined by the victims of victims? Like I said before,I can forgive people for almost anything,for I too am weak,falable.....but some things??? Again,sorry :(

    I live on a sound lil Narrowboat with me dog.pagan and happy in my skin,single and chilled

  • Guys, can I ask you to start a new thread if you want to discuss issues surrounding paedophilia please? That's a bit of a tangent for this thread. Cheers.

    Nah,its cool....point...taken :)

    I live on a sound lil Narrowboat with me dog.pagan and happy in my skin,single and chilled

  • Guys, can I ask you to start a new thread if you want to discuss issues surrounding paedophilia please? That's a bit of a tangent for this thread. Cheers.


    Sorry, dude. Was mentioned earlier in the thread is all. I'll be quiet now :D

  • I used to be extremely sensitive and thin skinned. I used to get pissed off at the way people used to walk on the pavement. Till I got so sick of over thinking things that somehow my mind automatically and subconsciously decided to disconnect me from my emotions. Now nothing seems to phase me any more and forgiving people has become a whole lot easier. I don't even give things a second thought, that would have bugged the hell out of me previously.

  • Most things I can forgive quite easily, especially if it was something that was done because they were stressed or unhappy, and it was just circumstance and the person also seemed to regret it. What I find impossible to forgive is deliberate harm, towards me and especially towards my kids, then I am very different. I've had experience of this and it rocks my sense of humanity, I find this kind of behavior really destructive at a deep personal level. I like to belive that people are essentially good, nieve, probably, but I have to look for good in the world where I can, s**t gets thrown in life too often.

  • I want to be all noble and say I forgive easily but sadly I cant let go off a grudge.


    Having said that I think its good to forgive people who genuinely do not have the ability to realise what is wrong with them and why they are doing or saying things out of line, and then begging for forgiveness later. People suffer from disorders that are not in their control.... and they need friends to hold on to them and guide them so that they dont end up doing that for the rest of their lives.

  • to forgive you must first resent/hate...and finding this taxing we "forgive" so as not to carry that burden, so forgiveness is a selfish act that really has no concern of the other who is unfortunately baring first your resentment and then your so called noble forgiveness. i would be more interested in why i reacted in the first place? is it because i have an image of myself as noble or good or kind etc and this is threatened by someone and so i react...is this image real? why have an image? not that i don't..