How many police?

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  • Its a pretty effective "fear the police, never give them ANY reason to so much as suspect you" message....if you were so inclined to think authoritarianism is on the rise once more.... Nicely priming the populace with a blend of "there are real terrorists out there so you cant complain too much" and "bow your head serf".


    Something nasty this way comes.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from sensamelia

    yes it does dok but i think its a case of wit the terrorist attacks of late they have to be seen to be doing something and who they do it too ....well lets pick a random

    See, I support pro-active policing in there situations, and I even accept the possibility that honest mistakes will be made, but by all accounts these guys were pretty upstanding citizens, and yet somehow one of them end up getting shot. How hard can it be to wait for someone to exit a house where they can be arrested easily with minimal force and no perceived danger of them activating a bomb or chemical device?

  • Quote from Atomik

    I don't think it's that sinister. I think the met are out of bloody control though.


    CCTV
    ID Cards
    DNA Database
    Detention without trial
    Trial without jury
    Destruction of Parliament Act
    Shooting innocent folks (2nd one now)


    I'm not so sure its as "innocuous" as simple incompetance......

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Atomik

    See, I support pro-active policing in there situations, and I even accept the possibility that honest mistakes will be made, but by all accounts these guys were pretty upstanding citizens, and yet somehow one of them end up getting shot. How hard can it be to wait for someone to exit a house where they can be arrested easily with minimal force and no perceived danger of them activating a bomb or chemical device?


    well yeah i am in full support of pro active policing and i think in the case of terroristsyou have to be but you have to admit it is getting pretty random
    i live quite close to blackburn ...can you not remember the rumour that there was a small garage in audley range making bombs
    police swooped and i mean mega police prescence early morning armed ,
    asians all lined up on the floor ......only to find false info
    this was on the news etc
    the garage was spray painted ....bloody terrorists out and a few other choice words ........these guys have familys .......it seems to me if yer black asian /muslim yer guilty till proven otherwise not not guilty till proven

  • I agree the above are all causes for concern, but I really don't perceive a masterplan/ Governments, by their nature, seek control. As technology becomes available, it's to be expected (and resisted!) that they should seek to utilise it to gather information and increase control of their citizens. I don't think this is any sinister plot.... simply governments behaving as governments naturally do.

  • Quote from sensamelia

    well yeah i am in full support of pro active policing and i think in the case of terroristsyou have to be but you have to admit it is getting pretty random

    Totally agree. On the other hand, I guess the police are in a difficult situation. If they don't act, and it turns out they should have acted, imagine the shit they'd get. In fact you don't need to imagine it.... they're already getting shit for not having been on the case of the tube bombers. If you're told that there's a bomb-making factory, what you gona do? If you ignore it because there's not enough evidence, and people die as a result.... I dunno. It's difficult.

  • Quote from Atomik

    I agree the above are all causes for concern, but I really don't perceive a masterplan/ Governments, by their nature, seek control. As technology becomes available, it's to be expected (and resisted!) that they should seek to utilise it to gather information and increase control of their citizens. I don't think this is any sinister plot.... simply governments behaving as governments naturally do.


    They dont have to "march on parliament with jackboots on" in a day of subtle media manipulation though Dok. I agree that government is about having control, and the exponential curve on tech means a comparable curve on control measures.....but I wonder also if people are waiting for the crunch of jackboots or sandals before they thing "uh-oh!" when in todays age it can be far more subtle.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Coyote

    They dont have to "march on parliament with jackboots on" in a day of subtle media manipulation though Dok. I agree that government is about having control, and the exponential curve on tech means a comparable curve on control measures.....but I wonder also if people are waiting for the crunch of jackboots or sandals before they thing "uh-oh!" when in todays age it can be far more subtle.

    But the problem with the "new world order" sort of idea is that it assumes that governments need to control us more. In reality, we're sheep anyway. We're about as compliant as compliant can be.


    We're certainly too complacent though. While I don't believe there's any sinister plan afoot, it's dangerous for governments to have the potential to extend their control over us in so many ways. If we ever take a lurch to the right, our leaders will have all the tools they need to make 1984 look like a day out at the seaside.

  • Quote from Atomik

    Totally agree. On the other hand, I guess the police are in a difficult situation. If they don't act, and it turns out they should have acted, imagine the shit they'd get. In fact you don't need to imagine it.... they're already getting shit for not having been on the case of the tube bombers. If you're told that there's a bomb-making factory, what you gona do? If you ignore it because there's not enough evidence, and people die as a result.... I dunno. It's difficult.


    yeah i can dig that angle
    you know i watched a documentary on tv over the weekend about asian/muslim families living in this country and how difficult it is
    these families just so happened to be deaf as well
    and whilst from a racist point of view it could be said they dident need to come here (im not racist)
    if you knew you could go to a country for a better quality of life ,better education for your children etc away from persecution in a lot of cases wouldent you jump at it
    well this deaf asian woman and her hubby were having their first child
    so a third generation asian in britain
    she was saying how difficult it was bieng deaf never mind deaf and asian living in britain and was terrified for her child
    now with all the terrorist activity and fear it had gotten much worse they had been spat on in the street
    as she said she was actually born here

  • Quote from sensamelia

    and whilst from a racist point of view it could be said they dident need to come here (im not racist)
    if you knew you could go to a country for a better quality of life ,better education for your children etc away from persecution in a lot of cases wouldent you jump at it

    Exactly. It pissses me off the amount of resentment that these people face. Of course they're gonna look for a better way of life if they can! We'd all do exactly the same. I mean I moved from Liverpool down South looking for a better life. What's the difference? A national border? Big deal.


    Also, the West screws many of these countries over and has exploited their wealth for hundreds of years. It's OK for Asian wealth to line the coffers of the empire, but god help their peasants if they want a slice of the cake.

  • Quote from Atomik

    But the problem with the "new world order" sort of idea is that it assumes that governments need to control us more. In reality, we're sheep anyway. We're about as compliant as compliant can be.


    That works if you look at it rationally, but those in power have ALWAYS been paranoid about the "peasants revolting" and their loss of a tenuous foothold on rulership (there are a great many "princes in waiting" all too willing to take their place).


    Quote

    If we ever take a lurch to the right, our leaders will have all the tools they need to make 1984 look like a day out at the seaside.


    The only change I would make to that sentence is replacing "if" with "when"....

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Coyote

    That works if you look at it rationally, but those in power have ALWAYS been paranoid about the "peasants revolting" and their loss of a tenuous foothold on rulership (there are a great many "princes in waiting" all too willing to take their place).

    But that assumes that governments aren't smart enough that to work out that the easiest way to control people is subtly. I think they're aware of that, which is why we have all our precious civil liberties. :rolleyes:


    Quote

    The only change I would make to that sentence is replacing "if" with "when"....

    Optimist. :harhar:

  • Quote from atomik

    Also, the West screws many of these countries over and has exploited their wealth for hundreds of years. It's OK for Asian wealth to line the coffers of the empire, but god help their peasants if they want a slice of the cake.

    its so true and this makes me sick and for this reason i buy fair trade clothing always
    peeps are quite happy to use eat wear god jknows wot imported from these countries but sit and share bread with a native from one and there like wtf
    this is not a generalization on all peeps before i get bombarded but true of a lot of peeps
    we are now a multi cultural society lets get on with it

  • Quote from Atomik

    But that assumes that governments aren't smart enough that to work out that the easiest way to control people is subtly. I think they're aware of that, which is why we have all our precious civil liberties. :rolleyes:


    But they also know things are getting tighter..space, mineral resources, water, unstable weather (i'm not tinfoil enough to believe they are making it happen with HAARP lol :D )....so they know tensions and riots are more likely.


    There's already a lurch to the right in the country, against immigrants etc, so there's a big groundwell of support for the tactics now being used.....it doesnt take much to nudge that over into a Krystalnacht and the rest....


    Quote

    Optimist. :harhar:


    Lol


    Most people are retarded sheep willingly following a shepherd regardless of how fleeced they will end up - I reserve my optimism for the spaces in between :)

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Coyote

    But they also know things are getting tighter..space, mineral resources, water, unstable weather

    I just don't believe governments have this much foresight. But really, we simply don't have enough information. It's all guesswork, but it comes down to how paranoid/complacent/on the fence you are.


    Quote

    Most people are retarded sheep willingly following a shepherd regardless of how fleeced they will end up - I reserve my optimism for the spaces in between :)

    I'm a realist. I reserve judgement until the evidence is clear one way or the other. ;)

  • Quote from Atomik

    I just don't believe governments have this much foresight. But really, we simply don't have enough information. It's all guesswork, but it comes down to how paranoid/complacent/on the fence you are.


    Which is why I still agree with Claire Wolfe ;) :D


    Quote

    I'm a realist. I reserve judgement until the evidence is clear one way or the other. ;)


    Thats often when its too late......sometimes a judgement call is required :D

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • I'm not saying that these are my views but to look at it from another way regarding resentment of imigrants. what about people who have seen the area that they and their families live in deteriate greatly and now they see a worse a life for their children and, whilst not the only problem by any means, the large influx of immigrants has had an impact on this. It seems that any time they speak out they're seen as racist BNP members to the point where they keep their views quiet. There's people i have known for decades who i know to be decent people who have a problem with the large immigrant population. It probably depends largly on the area of britain you live in as to your viewpoint.

  • Quote from TheSoupdragon

    So the two suspects have been released without change. What a surprise!

    Still, I'm not sure we've heard the whole story yet. There are a lot of people out there who would love to be terrorist if only their mum would let them stay out late. I suppose one of the problems the police have is separating the fantacists from the real thing.



    With hindsight you can say ''what a suprise''. I was a bit cheesed off at their press confrence...but i did feel sorry for them. Now they are going to be hounded by speculation, till the IPCC report is out.

    The media has shaped peoples views about the polices actions and supposed ''lies'' etc etc like they did with jean charles.. and they will do the same here.. It's really sad when people are happy to spout the nonsense of the newspaprs and then call the police liars .. ironic in many ways.