The Pope's Visit

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    I was commenting on your point concerning representation; the Bishops sit in the house of lords because that is english tradition.


    Some traditions are good but others aren't of value and should be discarded.


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    Church of England, the clue is in the name. It has been the carrier of ritual of the nation for a very long time. Prior to that it was the Roman Catholic Church, prior to that it was Celtic Christianity, and witches and atheists have had bugger all role or influence.


    And prior to that we had Roman paganism and Celtic paganism and whatever the tradition is not the CoE or Catholicism it's some form of belief and spirituality. That's not changing. It suits people to make the false argument that all people who oppose the power of the Church are secular atheists but we all know that's not the case. Most people just don't have a strong faith or belief one way or another. However some of religions teachings aren't compatible with how we live today. Only because people have fought to highlight and expose the falseness of the teachings and stand up to the power of the Christian Church, only because of this can we actually have witches and atheists who are free from persecution. Atheist may not have had much influence in the past but the teachings of the Church were shown to be not only false but in many cases fairytale and now people who aren't Christian most certainly will have influence.




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    The house of lords has been systematically sidelined since the Parliament Act was introduced.


    Not nearly sidelined enough.


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    The drive in society is to marginalise religion into the private realm; how often have we heard that religion belongs behind closed doors.


    I haven't heard this before. Religion belongs in the heart of it's follow. It doesn't have any right to force it's beliefs on me or anyone else. If you call this marginalisation then thats up to you but we have to accept it's a very positive thing.


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    That is a non-answer.
    Secularism has no place for conscience; the only thing allowed input is empirical evidence. That is what secularism is about.


    I don't think secularism is about anything very much at all. Most folk wouldn't even describe them self as secularists. They usually just don't know if there's a god or not. Strict atheism and science obsession like Dawkins isn't representative of the majority of people in the country who have rejected the teachings of the Church. There are certain beliefs that connect a society and some of the teachings of the church no longer with who we are and what our traditions have become.

  • Some traditions are good but others aren't of value and should be discarded.


    None should be discarded lightly, but there is certainly a movement in society which proposes a de facto stance of tradition=bad.


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    And prior to that we had Roman paganism and Celtic paganism and whatever the tradition is not the CoE or Catholicism it's some form of belief and spirituality. That's not changing. It suits people to make the false argument that all people who oppose the power of the Church are secular atheists but we all know that's not the case. Most people just don't have a strong faith or belief one way or another.


    Secularism is not a lack of the presence of faith in society, rather it is the lack of influence of religion in society.


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    However some of religions teachings aren't compatible with how we live today. Only because people have fought to highlight and expose the falseness of the teachings and stand up to the power of the Christian Church, only because of this can we actually have witches and atheists who are free from persecution. Atheist may not have had much influence in the past but the teachings of the Church were shown to be not only false but in many cases fairytale and now people who aren't Christian most certainly will have influence.


    It is not so much that other religions will have influence, but rather that Christianity is being reduced to their general level of lack of influence whilst any 'persecution' of others is removed. An equal level of impotence, essentially.


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    Not nearly sidelined enough.


    I'd rather a hereditary House of Lords than an elected House of Commons that has to whore themselves out to the lowest common denominator educated by the murdoch press.


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    I don't think secularism is about anything very much at all. Most folk wouldn't even describe them self as secularists. They usually just don't know if there's a god or not. Strict atheism and science obsession like Dawkins isn't representative of the majority of people in the country who have rejected the teachings of the Church. There are certain beliefs that connect a society and some of the teachings of the church no longer with who we are and what our traditions have become.


    Secularism is not simply another word for atheism. Rather, secularism is the practice of modernising/rationalising society, stripping the influence of custom, morality and tradition and instead requiring that society be directed by the empirical.


    If you would like an idea of what Secularism looks like, consider the way public service was represented and replaced by Thatcher, Blair and indeed apparently Cameron :( How we went (via a great deal of spin and propaganda) from a belief in the public sector being motivated by genuine public service, to an idea that they are only in it for self-interest; resulting in a secularisation of the civil service as custom, tradition and morality were replaced by targets. That is the process of secularisation; chasing the measurable rather than trusting to intangibles.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Yet both Thatcher and Blair queue up to see the pope. No sense of irony there then. Anyway, thank fuck he's gone and not all over our "secular" tv anymore. It was bad enough when he visited Ireland but yesterday was just fucking dreadful.

  • Can I just add the lazy use of the term Christian in relation to the pope....Christianity is a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of "Jesus", which holds the primacy of Him, and believes that salvation is found in Him alone....Catholicism is actually not a montheistic religion as it deifies Mary, as well as successive men: These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." As well as the traditional trinity, furthermore saints are venerated as being helpful to salvation!! So Catholicism is pantheistic in its leanings and views many as being co-redemptors.... The protestant/catholic dialectic is a further misnomer, any protestant who celebrates easter, christmas and sunday worship is following non biblical traditions of man. Yahshua HaMashiach was a torah observant yahudim, who kept all biblical sabbaths, fri-sat and the feasts, tied tefillim, kept kosher etc...This was neatly swept under the carpet by Constantinian adoption of christianity as the unifying colonial roman faith. many have held to the Natsarim faith, upholding the ways in which Yahshua walked, and face persecution from the catholic and protestant church to this day...
    Definitely a case of define your terms more clearly...

    http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/
    http://www.onlinetruth.org/index.htm

  • [QUOTE=Coyote;1002659
    Are you refering to me or Benedict now? I do hope you do not mean me as I have said several times that I consider Mrs Thatcher to be a liberal and not a conservative....[/QUOTE]
    Up until this point, I was prepared to read your posts, and just smirk at what I view to be a misguided view, but this comment really gets my goat.
    I know you've said it before, but I hoped that you were saying it just to be contraversial, but no. In this view you are wrong, i think most people would view Thatcher as a bit right wing, but as I read your posts, I'm coming to realise this is a trait you admire.
    I could list all the acts that evil woman did but it's all there in the history books, I was there, and I can't see any point in reitterating stuff that you will dispute.
    Do you inhabit the realm of what is patently a left of centre site just so you can play devils advocate? There are many who would view your admiration of thatcher as fairly inflamatory, and mistaken.
    Any way, I digress, I resent the Pope coming here for similar reasons to you, he's not part of our tradition.
    We, the english, kicked the church of rome into touch a long time ago, we rebelled against the norm, and I liked that, I like being the oddity, the outcast, the one that doesn't just follow like sheep.
    Also they could've picked a pope that hadn't been in a nazi army eh? Talk about a wind up,do you think they did it on purpose?
    Oh I know he was 'forced' into it and he did run away, but not until 1944,when he could see which way the war was going, so no great act of bravery there, just self preservation.
    And let's not forget the catholic churches' part in the second world war, Germany's closest allies,Spain,Italy Vichy France all Catholic countries, and after the war, where did all the Nazis run to, mostly catholic South America.
    And as for the child abuse scandal.... disgust doesn't even come near.
    Some traditions are best left behind as we become a more 'grown up' and civilised society, and not believing in an imaginary force and it's infallible mouthpiece would be a good start in both growing up and becoming more civilised.

  • Up until this point, I was prepared to read your posts, and just smirk at what I view to be a misguided view, but this comment really gets my goat.
    I know you've said it before, but I hoped that you were saying it just to be contraversial, but no. In this view you are wrong, i think most people would view Thatcher as a bit right wing, but as I read your posts, I'm coming to realise this is a trait you admire.
    I could list all the acts that evil woman did but it's all there in the history books, I was there, and I can't see any point in reitterating stuff that you will dispute.
    Do you inhabit the realm of what is patently a left of centre site just so you can play devils advocate? There are many who would view your admiration of thatcher as fairly inflamatory, and mistaken.


    What are you on about? :S I have said more than once on here that I do *not* admire Mrs T because she was *not* a conservative; she was instead an individualism-promoting classical liberal. It would have been nice if she WAS right of centre; that way she would have had respect for the long standing institutions that make this nation up....instead of being, as she was, in a hurry to sell everything off that she could. Mrs Thatcher was a reformer who promoted the cause of the individual, of freedom and of the tearing down of the establishment....because she sought to replace it with a new secular (rather than traditional) "establishment" whose main purpose was the promotion of liberty of the individual. That was precisely the goal of the left in the french revolution (which is where we get the terms "left" and "right" from).


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    Any way, I digress, I resent the Pope coming here for similar reasons to you, he's not part of our tradition.
    We, the english, kicked the church of rome into touch a long time ago, we rebelled against the norm, and I liked that, I like being the oddity, the outcast, the one that doesn't just follow like sheep.
    Also they could've picked a pope that hadn't been in a nazi army eh? Talk about a wind up,do you think they did it on purpose?

    Was he? Or was he part of that when he was very young and it was pretty much a requirement to join in. If that was the case, then I see his involvement as no more damning than that of all the voters who voted in Blair in 2005 when we all knew he had lied to take us to war.


    I can happily criticise the pope for what he has done that I disagree with, but there are a great many unsubstantiated cheap shots thrown as well, all of which covers up very real and important questions it takes his visit to get into the news media.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

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    Was he? Or was he part of that when he was very young and it was pretty much a requirement to join in. If that was the case, then I see his involvement as no more damning than that of all the voters who voted in Blair in 2005 when we all knew he had lied to take us to war.



    and that excuses him does it? that makes it all ok?.. and there was no one else who could take up his post? a lot of people left germany in order to avoid joining the army.. this twonk wasnt one of them..
    but then i suppose if god says he's a good boy now.. then it must be ok?

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    What are you on about? :S I have said more than once on here that I do *not* admire Mrs T because she was *not* a conservative; she was instead an individualism-promoting classical liberal. It would have been nice if she WAS right of centre; that way she would have had respect for the long standing institutions that make this nation up....instead of being, as she was, in a hurry to sell everything off that she could. Mrs Thatcher was a reformer who promoted the cause of the individual, of freedom and of the tearing down of the establishment....because she sought to replace it with a new secular (rather than traditional) "establishment" whose main purpose was the promotion of liberty of the individual. That was precisely the goal of the left in the french revolution (which is where we get the terms "left" and "right" from).


    Thanks for the education,but you are first in a queue of one of people I know who do not consider thatcher to have been right wing, but hey what do we know, we were only there. you crack on and interprerate her actions as you see fit.There's probably no chance either of us will get the chance to ask her personally.


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    Was he? Or was he part of that when he was very young and it was pretty much a requirement to join in. If that was the case, then I see his involvement as no more damning than that of all the voters who voted in Blair in 2005 when we all knew he had lied to take us to war.


    Yes he was, don't forget, at the same time there were people in fascist countries who were laying down ther lives to prevent the rise of fascism, wouldn't you have prefered (if you were a catholic) to have had a pope who had fought against rather than joined in with the rise of germany. I don't accept the statement that 'it was pretty much a requirement to join in', there were some exceptional people who didn't.I would have hoped that the head of the catholic church would be an exceptional person, or at lest not someone who followed the herd because he was afraid.
    I think that comparing someone who voted Blair in to someone who fought in an army guilty of that degree of slaughter to be grasping at straws. And what about the part played by the catholic countries i mentioned earlier.

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    I can happily criticise the pope for what he has done that I disagree with, but there are a great many unsubstantiated cheap shots thrown as well, all of which covers up very real and important questions it takes his visit to get into the news media.


    I think that the fact that he served in the army is pretty well documented, and one of the real and important questions I think that we should all be asking is why this man,(not representative of god as some would have us believe) is given so much credability.Do you not think that its time we moved on from imaginary friends?

  • and that excuses him does it? that makes it all ok?.. and there was no one else who could take up his post? a lot of people left germany in order to avoid joining the army.. this twonk wasnt one of them..
    but then i suppose if god says he's a good boy now.. then it must be ok?


    People do foolish things when young; Ratzinger was 16/17 at that time. Some continue to do similar foolish things well into adulthood. We can no more seriously criticise him for being a member of the hitler youth in a situation of genuine danger if you did not join, than we can criticise people for voting labour in 2005 (when we KNEW they had lied to take us to war) under much less personal risk.


    Are you perhaps suggesting that all soldiers drafted into the german army were nazis or nazi sympathisers?

    Like I said, by all means criticise his behaviour...but do so fairly and with realism.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

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    People do foolish things when young; Ratzinger was 16/17 at that time. Some continue to do similar foolish things well into adulthood. We can no more seriously criticise him for being a member of the hitler youth in a situation of genuine danger if you did not join, than we can criticise people for voting labour in 2005 (when we KNEW they had lied to take us to war) under much less personal risk.


    But not many of them go on to become pope, do you not think a better choice could've been made?
    As for the rest see above.

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    Are you perhaps suggesting that all soldiers drafted into the german army were nazis or nazi sympathisers?


    I'm suggesting that a man who had been in the german army doesn't make a very good pope.

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    Like I said, by all means criticise his behaviour...but do so fairly and with realism.


    I believe that we are.

  • Thanks for the education,but you are first in a queue of one of people I know who do not consider thatcher to have been right wing, but hey what do we know, we were only there. you crack on and interprerate her actions as you see fit.There's probably no chance either of us will get the chance to ask her personally.


    1, You were no more or less there than I was.


    2, In "Politics 101", Thatcher is considered to be "Right wing". Dig a little deeper and you will see a different picture.


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    Yes he was, don't forget, at the same time there were people in fascist countries who were laying down ther lives to prevent the rise of fascism, wouldn't you have prefered (if you were a catholic) to have had a pope who had fought against rather than joined in with the rise of germany. I don't accept the statement that 'it was pretty much a requirement to join in', there were some exceptional people who didn't.


    Way to make my point, Matty; those who did not join in were the EXCEPTION. :rolleyes:


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    I would have hoped that the head of the catholic church would be an exceptional person, or at lest not someone who followed the herd because he was afraid.


    Why. If Christianity is about anything it is about redemption and the principle that we are weak but God is strong. :shrug: I expect there are things you did in your youth that would suggest you should not be trusted running a business.


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    I think that comparing someone who voted Blair in to someone who fought in an army guilty of that degree of slaughter to be grasping at straws. And what about the part played by the catholic countries i mentioned earlier.


    Vote for a party you KNOW took a country to war on a lie, in a situation of no personal danger....or get drafted into an organisation in a condition of great personal danger. Pfft, its easy to be brave when separated by decades.


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    I think that the fact that he served in the army is pretty well documented, and one of the real and important questions I think that we should all be asking is why this man,(not representative of god as some would have us believe) is given so much credability.


    Many germans served in the army without being nazis.


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    Do you not think that its time we moved on from imaginary friends?



    Why? Would you rather that the "opiate of the masses" was one you could sell?

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • and that excuses him does it? that makes it all ok?.. and there was no one else who could take up his post? a lot of people left germany in order to avoid joining the army.. this twonk wasnt one of them..
    but then i suppose if god says he's a good boy now.. then it must be ok?


    It was join or die....many Germans joined in...it's not an excuse it's just the way it was.Those who were lucky or could afford it (or were helped) left Germany......I have family members who died in camps,it didn't stop my family befriending an inviting into our home a lovely elderly lady whose husband got shot down in WW2..He died whilst serving in the Luftwaffe and was shot down over London after a bombing run...But as for the pope,the wonderful thing about Catholicism is repentance.He repented.


    Hating someone because of the sins of their youth is rather nasty...Should we hold grudges against everyone who 'turns a blind eye' ?
    Take for example,the many who are suffering in Iraq/Afghanistan on a daily basis.Why aren't there mass demonstrations on the street ?..Why aren't you protesting now about all the women and children suffering ? Does it make you an uncaring evil person because you aren't ? The peoples of the middle east may regard you as a hateful westerner who doesn't give a feck about humanity because you aren't protesting...try explaining to them that you have a business to run,children to feed ,a life to live...and they will say IT'S NO EXCUSE..Quite simply,we collectively close our eyes to the reality of a situation and carry on......as did many Germans under the Nazis.


    I'd like to add,that I was brought up a Catholic and I'm no fan of many organised religions..But I find the hatred directed towards Catholics at the moment rather sinister..it reminds me of being a kid when the far right were blaming every Catholic for the IRA atrocities....Only now it's the self professed Liberal minded spouting hate..There's a lot of venom and hatred about lately.Funny old world...

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    You were no more or less there than I was.


    You 'know' this as fact do you?Apart from my age,I believe that some of my experiences would give me the right to comment on the thatcher years, whether with more or less 'weight' than you I can't possibly comment as I don't know your past, as you don't know mine.

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    2, In "Politics 101", Thatcher is considered to be "Right wing". Dig a little deeper and you will see a different picture.


    I'm obviously less well read than you so why don't you explain that one to me?



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    Way to make my point, Matty; those who did not join in were the EXCEPTION. :rolleyes:


    And I would like to think that a man with the amount of power that the pope has would be an EXCEPTIONAL.( I don't mind the rolly eyes,but a bit of a waste of time)


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    Why. If Christianity is about anything it is about redemption and the principle that we are weak but God is strong. :shrug: I expect there are things you did in your youth that would suggest you should not be trusted running a business.


    But I don't set myself up as the leader of a cult. If people want to come into my shop and talk to me that's fine, I wont 'condemn' them to eternal damnation if they don't.See I'll admit my mistakes as I am not infallible.I love christianity, such a tolerant religion.



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    Vote for a party you KNOW took a country to war on a lie, in a situation of no personal danger....or get drafted into an organisation in a condition of great personal danger. Pfft, its easy to be brave when separated by decades.


    In most peoples lives there comes a point where you have to say thus far and no further, I'm not saying I would be brave enough to not follow the masses,I'm lucky enough not to have been put in that position,but having made the wrong choice, i would hope that i would have the humility to admit it and act accordingly.






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    Why? Would you rather that the "opiate of the masses" was one you could sell?


    Yup, 'cos then I could take it back when it didn't work, and that was a cheap shot:D

  • It was join or die....many Germans joined in...it's not an excuse it's just the way it was.Those who were lucky or could afford it (or were helped) left Germany......I have family members who died in camps,it didn't stop my family befriending an inviting into our home a lovely elderly lady whose husband got shot down in WW2..He died whilst serving in the Luftwaffe and was shot down over London after a bombing run...But as for the pope,the wonderful thing about Catholicism is repentance.He repented.


    Hating someone because of the sins of their youth is rather nasty...Should we hold grudges against everyone who 'turns a blind eye' ?
    Take for example,the many who are suffering in Iraq/Afghanistan on a daily basis.Why aren't there mass demonstrations on the street ?..Why aren't you protesting now about all the women and children suffering ? Does it make you an uncaring evil person because you aren't ? The peoples of the middle east may regard you as a hateful westerner who doesn't give a feck about humanity because you aren't protesting...try explaining to them that you have a business to run,children to feed ,a life to live...and they will say IT'S NO EXCUSE..Quite simply,we collectively close our eyes to the reality of a situation and carry on......as did many Germans under the Nazis.


    I'd like to add,that I was brought up a Catholic and I'm no fan of many organised religions..But I find the hatred directed towards Catholics at the moment rather sinister..it reminds me of being a kid when the far right were blaming every Catholic for the IRA atrocities....Only now it's the self professed Liberal minded spouting hate..There's a lot of venom and hatred about lately.Funny old world...


    I can't believe that you would be defending the catholic faith, .'But as for the pope,the wonderful thing about Catholicism is repentance.He repented.'
    How many Hail Marys do you think that little indescretion cost him then, personally I'm surprised he's got any knees left.
    I don't hate the pope, or catholics, or any religion, but I do strongly resent the power that they have over my everyday life, from thought for the day on radio 4 to paying for the old sod to come over here, money that would have been much better spent on so many other things.
    As you have said in the past, what orwho you worship is up to you, and I don't mind as long as it doesn't hurt any body, unfortunately this cannot be said about the Catholic Church.It'd be quite nice if they would actually follow christ's teachings.
    For what it's worth I was married to an Irish catholic for a while, and if you want to hear venom and hatred against the Catholic church....

  • ,
    You 'know' this as fact do you?Apart from my age,I believe that some of my experiences would give me the right to comment on the thatcher years, whether with more or less 'weight' than you I can't possibly comment as I don't know your past, as you don't know mine.


    I have not doubted that you can comment on the Thatcher years; what I did was point out that you were not the only ones who "were...there".


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    I'm obviously less well read than you so why don't you explain that one to me?


    That would take a thread in itself :)


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    And I would like to think that a man with the amount of power that the pope has would be an EXCEPTIONAL.( I don't mind the rolly eyes,but a bit of a waste of time)


    If its an ordinary person their failings are counted against them. It it were an exceptional person the line would be "well we could never manage that". There is always some line to spin.


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    But I don't set myself up as the leader of a cult. If people want to come into my shop and talk to me that's fine, I wont 'condemn' them to eternal damnation if they don't.See I'll admit my mistakes as I am not infallible.I love christianity, such a tolerant religion.


    That is neither here nor there; the issue is whether the actions of our youth invalidate trust put in us now.


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    In most peoples lives there comes a point where you have to say thus far and no further, I'm not saying I would be brave enough to not follow the masses,I'm lucky enough not to have been put in that position,but having made the wrong choice, i would hope that i would have the humility to admit it and act accordingly.


    I'm glad to hear that nothing in your shop relies upon slave labour in the third world :)


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    Yup, 'cos then I could take it back when it didn't work, and that was a cheap shot:D



    I've recieved so many cheap shots it only seems right to recycle some of them :p

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

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    I have not doubted that you can comment on the Thatcher years; what I did was point out that you were not the only ones who "were...there".


    Again don't understand your answer, you seemed to be implying that Thatcher wasn't right wing, and I answered that because i 'was there' that I felt I had the right to disagree with you, this was not things that I had read in a book, but first hand experience.




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    That would take a thread in itself :)


    Off you go then, I'll read it, or you could just do the salient points.




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    If its an ordinary person their failings are counted against them. It it were an exceptional person the line would be "well we could never manage that". There is always some line to spin.


    and the line I'm spinning is that an ex member of germany's army has no place being pope, and certainly has no place telling 'lesser mortals how to live.



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    That is neither here nor there; the issue is whether the actions of our youth invalidate trust put in us now.


    Would you (I know this is an easy argument) put a thief in charge of the family silver, even tho' he's 'repented', especially when you have the choice of hundreds of non thieves.




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    I'm glad to hear that nothing in your shop relies upon slave labour in the third world :)


    To the best of my knowledge, no it doesn't, I do my best, amongst retailers, I'm probably not too bad, but again I'm not telling other people how to live.

  • Again don't understand your answer, you seemed to be implying that Thatcher wasn't right wing, and I answered that because i 'was there' that I felt I had the right to disagree with you, this was not things that I had read in a book, but first hand experience.


    My point is that such being there means little as we were both there and have a different perception. And those books can be quite informative ;)


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    Off you go then, I'll read it, or you could just do the salient points.


    I might do that :)


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    Would you (I know this is an easy argument) put a thief in charge of the family silver, even tho' he's 'repented', especially when you have the choice of hundreds of non thieves.


    If he gradually earned trust over years, yes. It must be wonderful to be sinless like yourself ;)


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    To the best of my knowledge, no it doesn't, I do my best, amongst retailers, I'm probably not too bad, but again I'm not telling other people how to live.


    Its not a matter of whether or not you are telling others anything, its a matter of whether or not you are participating in oppression.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

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    Hating someone because of the sins of their youth is rather nasty...Should we hold grudges against everyone who 'turns a blind eye' ?


    I didnt say that I hated him.. rather strong language there.. I just dont agree with him being pope.. I think there are others who would have been better for the job..

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    Take for example,the many who are suffering in Iraq/Afghanistan on a daily basis.Why aren't there mass demonstrations on the street ?..Why aren't you protesting now about all the women and children suffering ? Does it make you an uncaring evil person because you aren't ? The peoples of the middle east may regard you as a hateful westerner who doesn't give a feck about humanity because you aren't protesting...try explaining to them that you have a business to run,children to feed ,a life to live...and they will say IT'S NO EXCUSE..Quite simply,we collectively close our eyes to the reality of a situation and carry on......as did many Germans under the Nazis.

    why do you assume that I am not protesting against the illegal war in iraq?


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    I'd like to add,that I was brought up a Catholic and I'm no fan of many organised religions..But I find the hatred directed towards Catholics at the moment rather sinister..it reminds me of being a kid when the far right were blaming every Catholic for the IRA atrocities....Only now it's the self professed Liberal minded spouting hate..There's a lot of venom and hatred about lately.Funny old world


    you also seem to assume that I hate Catholics..when you have no idea what I do or dont believe, or what faith my family may or may not have..
    I have said nothing venomous, etc.. all I have said is that I dont think the current pope should have got the job.. sorry if that is in anyway offensive to you or anyone else.,but its how I feel..

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    My point is that such being there means little as we were both there and have a different perception. And those books can be quite informative ;)

    I'm afraid that my views that thatcher was a 'bit of a fascist' is going to take more than a few books to change, but what the hell I'd give it a go, thing is we may never agree on this one, out of interest, are you still 41?




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    I might do that :)

    Looking forward to it.


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    If he gradually earned trust over years, yes. It must be wonderful to be sinless like yourself ;)

    I've never professed to be sinless,and the pope certainly hasn't earned trust, bearing in mind his part in covering up the child abuse,BTW loving those recycled jibes.




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    Its not a matter of whether or not you are telling others anything, its a matter of whether or not you are participating in oppression.

    I'm doing my very best not to, I'm not joining in,and I'm certainly not joining in until it looks like I've joined the losing side and then running away.

  • I'm afraid that my views that thatcher was a 'bit of a fascist' is going to take more than a few books to change, but what the hell I'd give it a go, thing is we may never agree on this one, out of interest, are you still 41?


    Why would I not be 41?


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    I'm doing my very best not to, I'm not joining in,and I'm certainly not joining in until it looks like I've joined the losing side and then running away.


    Perhaps, like you, the 17 year old Joseph Ratzinger was doing the best he could in the circumstances.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • I didnt say that I hated him.. rather strong language there.. I just dont agree with him being pope.. I think there are others who would have been better for the job ... why do you assume that I am not protesting against the illegal war in iraq?
    you also seem to assume that I hate Catholics..when you have no idea what I do or dont believe, or what faith my family may or may not have..
    I have said nothing venomous, etc.. all I have said is that I dont think the current pope should have got the job.. sorry if that is in anyway offensive to you or anyone else.,but its how I feel..


    Claire, you got there ahead of me. I cannot believe that anyone who claims to be a peace loving, fair minded hippie and posts on a hippie website can be so ignorant and polemical in their views. I'm frankly stunned by the gross asumptions going on here. I'm still reeling from the vile insult of it being assumed I'm 'living in an intercity ghetto' on some other thread somewhere, based on absolutely no evidence whatever. Well, apart from the usual I'm all right Jackism blind predudice I've come to expect. Some of this stuff is hate crime and stiring up religious hatred. I will be pointing this out to my local friendly copper as he waves me across the road while he holds up the traffic.


    How can anyone possibly know who here at UKH demonstrates against what. Absolute tosh. How do you come by all this? Based on what? You don't know me. Well, apart from the free copy of my book you blagged off me several months ago. No, I prefer the you don't know me version of events. This is a an on-going, overwhelming two pronged attack, banging away with 18" guns at anyone who doesn't hold your cosy, small village England view of reality.


    Not all Germans were Nazis? Hilter declared total war, by doing so he made every single German responsible for what happened. I've seen the IWM archive film of the new nazi state oath of alliegenge to Hitler. It is undeniable. Some people fled the country, some started resistence movements including the guy who was banged up in a Berlin prison until 1945 and became post-war chancellor of West Germany.


    Everyone had a choice but some didn't make the right one. Actor Hardy Krueger was in the Hitler Youth and had to live with it - always playing nazis in movies. The people who lived near the death camps knew because that smell pervades. No one can say they didn't know or they weren't aware. Trudie Lange, Hitler's secretary, was exhonorated at Nurenburg as being too young know better. Yon Pope at 17 would have been old enough. If 'not all Germans were Nazis' in a total war then I'd love to know where Hilter got his invasion army from? That kind of woolly thinking is in the land of holocaust denyers and neo-nazis.


    I can't be bothered with this. Life's to short to argue with closed minds and folk who don't discuss - just shout a lot, their limited knowledge of the world as absolute fact with no possiblity of other views. I retired from the civil service to get away from all that.


    I've said it before. I'm off. I'm staying out of these "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" rant threads.

  • Quote from clairaitchbee


    Quote from clairaitchbee

    why do you assume that I am not protesting against the illegal war in iraq?


    Because you arnt. You are typing on here :S Protest hasnt worked...so why arnt trying harder? Scar wasnt saying that you are not protesting, but that to the eyes of those in the middleeast you would appear to be carrying on regardless (as is the allegation regarding Joseph Ratzinger, who, like I said, was 16 at the time and surrounded by a regime which had no problems shooting dissidents....which is a damn site more dangerous than where we all live).


    Its really quite sad that you have to dig up the war record of a child soldier to argue against him. Shall we treat the children in the Sudan the same?


    Claire, you got there ahead of me. I cannot believe that anyone who claims to be a peace loving, fair minded hippie and posts on a hippie website can be so ignorant and polemical in their views. I'm frankly stunned by the gross asumptions going on here. I'm still reeling from the vile insult of it being assumed I'm 'living in an intercity ghetto' on some other thread somewhere, based on absolutely no evidence whatever. Well, apart from the usual I'm all right Jackism blind predudice I've come to expect. Some of this stuff is hate crime and stiring up religious hatred. I will be pointing this out to my local friendly copper as he waves me across the road while he holds up the traffic.


    How can anyone possibly know who here at UKH demonstrates against what. Absolute tosh. How do you come by all this? Based on what? You don't know me. Well, apart from the free copy of my book you blagged off me several months ago. No, I prefer the you don't know me version of events. This is a an on-going, overwhelming two pronged attack, banging away with 18" guns at anyone who doesn't hold your cosy, small village England view of reality.


    Leave the personal comments out of it and do not drag (misrepresentations of) arguments from other threads onto this one.


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    Not all Germans were Nazis? Hilter declared total war, by doing so he made every single German responsible for what happened. ..... If 'not all Germans were Nazis' in a total war then I'd love to know where Hilter got his invasion army from? ....That kind of woolly thinking is in the land of holocaust denyers and neo-nazis.


    Wow, historical revision AND smear tactics. :eek: If that is all you can manage its pointless attempting to discuss with you.


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    I can't be bothered with this. Life's to short to argue with closed minds and folk who don't discuss


    :insane: except that we are discussing. What we are not doing is agreeing (or resorting to nasty smear tactics).


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    I've said it before. I'm off. I'm staying out of these "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" rant threads.

    :waves:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Coyote ().

  • I've given up too, not because, I'm tired of debating, but because my points are either ignored if they don't fit the opinion or sweeping statements like the "hatred of catholics" keep coming up purely to deflect things to a different argument and I'm just overwhelmed by the amount of disingenuous bullshit being trotted out that I then have to reply to. The only remaining questions are that if someone thinks that thatcher wasn't right wing enough, thinks parliament should be answerable to the C of E, thinks Johny foreigner is starving because he spends all his money on missiles and deserves to get catastrophic floods and its not our problem, and thinks that the Pope is the only religious figure to be tolerated outside the Cof E and other religions just aren't cricket, then what the hell are they doing on a counter culture website? Relieved that finally someone else has joined in really, shouldn't have to feel like a voice in the wilderness on a hippy website.

  • I've given up too, not because, I'm tired of debating, but because my points are either ignored if they don't fit the opinion or sweeping statements like the "hatred of catholics" keep coming up purely to deflect things to a different argument and I'm just overwhelmed by the amount of disingenuous bullshit being trotted out that I then have to reply to. The only remaining questions are that if someone thinks that thatcher wasn't right wing enough, thinks parliament should be answerable to the C of E, thinks Johny foreigner is starving because he spends all his money on missiles and deserves to get catastrophic floods and its not our problem, and thinks that the Pope is the only religious figure to be tolerated outside the Cof E and other religions just aren't cricket, then what the hell are they doing on a counter culture website? Relieved that finally someone else has joined in really, shouldn't have to feel like a voice in the wilderness on a hippy website.


    That would be the hippy website where, when asked, nobody claims to be a hippy :whistle: Its quite simple really, dont launch into accusations of me being a Thatcherite :waves:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • That would be the hippy website where, when asked, nobody claims to be a hippy :whistle: Its quite simple really, dont launch into accusations of me being a Thatcherite :waves:


    Don't care what you are or aren't, I clearly remember you vigorously defending her "no such thing as society" speech, and whatever she was you, she was leader of the tory party and you are a tory, all the rest is semantics. As usual, you highlight the one small point where you think I haven't paid attention and ignore the rest. Feel free to continue until everyone else drops out and you can chalk it up as a win for team coyote if you like, I won't get sucked in again
    Oh, just one thing, I'm quite happy to be called a hippy, I think I even posted so on another thread, where quite a lot of other people posted too..