No longer Veg*n

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  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    Without wanting to guilt trip anyone, it's worth remembering with all this talk of choice that animals don't get much choice regarding whether they get raised as food in terrible conditions and eaten.

    Well that is true for some farm animals, but not all. As far as I know all lamb is free range and a great deal but not all beef cattle are free range. If you want to put an end to factory farming the answer to buy free range meat, rather than not buy it at all. On the other hand if you don't like meat, well fair enough.
    .

  • Quote from Duckman

    Well that is true for some farm animals, but not all.

    I don't think any animal gets much choice regarding whether it gets butchered.


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    As far as I know all lamb is free range

    So you don't think removing a lamb from its mother and slaughtering it is at all cruel?


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    and a great deal but not all beef cattle are free range.

    Free range does not equal cruelty free. There are many farming practices that can be regarded as cruel, regardless of whether meat is free range, organic, or factory farmed.


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    If you want to put an end to factory farming the answer to buy free range meat, rather than not buy it at all.

    Ummmm..... that's the weirdest logic I ever heard.


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    On the other hand if you don't like meat, well fair enough.

    "Don't like"? I think most vegetarians are vegetarian out of ethical concern. I think you should more correctly say "if you don't like participating in a cruel industry, then fair enough".

  • I'm not really sure what to say. I've always wondered whether i'd ever be in this position at some point in the future, and thought how people (meat-eaters) would react to it after i've been lecturing them all this time about how ignorant they are etc., cos they'd be in their own rights to point a finger. Then what would my veggie friends say and think about me. But the worst one would be how guilty i would feel, going against my own morals. Thankfully i haven't been tempted to eat meat again, but i wouldn't say it's impossible for that to happen, since i used to like eating it. I'm not one of those veggies that never liked it to begin with. I really hope i never get to that stage though, as i'd be really disappointed with myself.

    Do you feel guilty about it Exedous? I always find people who post this sort of thing never say how awful they feel for doing it, but just go straight into the whole, it's my decision not yours (defensive), type of post. Why haven't you just given up veganism and went veggie to see if that's any better, instead of giving up everything? Were you eating enough to start with? Maybe that's why you were quite thin, and not the lack of protein from meat. Also, people who smoke i've found tend to replace eating with smoking. You're a big man, you need to eat plenty! You could also be low on nutrients, as i remember you said you'd never taken any supplements, maybe you could try that too? (mine are £12 for a 3 month supply)

    I used to love meat and fish, and i do miss the taste to this day, but my guilt gets in the way of doing anything about it. I actually don't think i could physically eat it now anyways, just knowing what it is, and how it's suffered.

  • hey exodous you do what ever feels right for you buddy its nobody elses buisness
    i turned veggie when i was 14 then had a try at vegan at 16 the vegan dident do it for me and i went back to veggie
    i have given birth to 7 kids whilst bieng a veggie and was always told by the midwives i was in really good health

    after like 28 years of bieng a veggie this last christmas i ate turkey and sausages just cause i felt like it
    it dident do it for me to be honest and im back with what im comfy with
    something iu have to say .....i have lots of veggie friends none of whom have been really thin but all the vegan friends ive had have for the mostpart been quite thin and pale
    i think people dont research enough before entering in to it

  • Quote from sensamelia

    hey exodous you do what ever feels right for you buddy its nobody elses buisness

    Well I can understand the principle of not judging people, but if you believe that raising animals for food is unethical, then it is your business. I mean, if someone was going out and raping people, you would't say "hey, whatever's right for you". But somehow because it's only animals who're being violated and abused that makes it up to the individual whether they feel like participating in that or not?


    I'm not a veggie who generally ventures an opinion on meat-eating without being asked first. My preaching days are long behind me. But this idea that it's just "up to the individual" what they do is kinda flawed. If we believe something is unethical, then doesn't that make it our business and give us a right to voice an opinion?


    Now I'm not saying anyone should be giving Exedous shit for slipping under the circumstances or judging him for it, but it's not as simple as saying "it's just up to him".

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    Well I can understand the principle of not judging people, but if you believe that raising animals for food is unethical, then it is your business. I mean, if someone was going out and raping people, you would't say "hey, whatever's right for you". But somehow because it's only animals who're being violated and abused that makes it up to the individual whether they feel like participating in that o.



    totally different doc
    how can you compare meat eating to rape
    i became a veggie because i lived near a slaughterhouse and dident like the way in which the animals were treated prior to bieng slaughtered or how they were killed
    so i did some research .....bearing in mind i was only nearly 15
    i found out how these animals had to live thier lives and it wasent pleasent in the majority of cases
    the fact of the matter is you are never going to stop people slaughtering animals to eat no matter how many people speak out and how many protests we have and believe me i went to loads in my teens
    its better living conditions
    free range
    organically fed
    thats what we need to be concentrating on
    so yes it is choice

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik



    You'll never stop people having wars. Should killing each other be a choice too?


    of course not
    you and i both know from bieng veggie you can get enough protien vitamins and minerals from other scources and your body doesnt need meat
    but this isent the case for every body
    maybe it should be taught in schools
    there should be more say in the home economics lesson about nutrition etc than just plain old fairy cake baking

    i just dont think you can compare it to war thats taking it a bit far

  • Quote from sensamelia

    i just dont think you can compare it to war thats taking it a bit far

    It just seems odd to me that when humans are cruel to other humans, we're all ready to jump in with an opinion and say what people should and shouldn't do and what's right and wrong. And yet when we abuse animals for no other reason except to satisfy our taste buds.... well, that's fine. It's "personal choice" and "nobody elses business".


    Like I said... I'm not a preachy veggie, and generally I don't venture an opinion on the diets of others. I'm quite happy for Exedous to do his own thing as he feels necessary without judging him or giving him shit. Where I do draw the line is if someone says it's nobody elses business. It is. Ethics... morality... right and wrong... caring for the other creatures with which we share this planet... that's everybody's business. It might not be productive to tell people how to live their lives every five minutes and it might not be right to judge them for seeing the world differently to us, but it's still our business - unless you believe in a world where we turn a blind eye to suffering and walk the other way.

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    It just seems odd to me that when humans are cruel to other humans, we're all ready to jump in with an opinion and say what people should and shouldn't do and what's right and wrong. And yet when we abuse animals for no other reason except to satisfy our taste buds.... well, that's fine. It's "personal choice" and "nobody elses business".

    Like I said... I'm not a preachy veggie, and generally I don't venture an opinion on the diets of others. I'm quite happy for Exedous to do his own thing as he feels necessary without judging him or giving him shit. Where I do draw the line is if someone says it's nobody elses business. It is. Ethics... morality... right and wrong... caring for the other creatures with which we share this planet... that's everybody's business. It might not be productive to tell people how to live their lives every five minutes and it might not be right to judge them for seeing the world differently to us, but it's still our business - unless you believe in a world where we turn a blind eye to suffering and walk the other way.


    i never said turn a blind eye to suffering
    but the amount of protsets i have been on and marchs etc and whats changed really
    people are still eating meat and always will
    i do have very strong beliefs on the killing of animals for food believe it or not but i dont feel i can change the views of everyone else

  • Nobody is perfect, I respect that exedous felt safe enough to share his own shortcomings on here without fear of being judged.

    I'd like to see one human being on here who does everything right all the time and has never contributed to any suffering ... The odds are against us so we just do the best we can to limit the impact, and some people's best effort will often achieve less results than others.

    The world isn't going to change that much in our lifetime so making an effort is just as important as succeeding in that effort. Failing in that effort should not be something to feel shame over.

    Lifes pressures mean that to live an cruelty free existance isn't easy, so while I don't like his choice I appreciate his right to make that choice and fully understand the difficulties.


  • very well put paul

  • Quote from sensamelia

    i never said turn a blind eye to suffering

    You said it was nobody elses business. I'm not really interested in arguing about who said what though, coz it's obvious we both believe pretty much the same thing. My point is simply this: if the behaviour of others causes suffering, it is always our business. Whether that should lead to judging, lecturing or anything else is a different matte.

  • I really want to say oh yes it is your choice and go ahead but ultimatley it is not the animal/fish choice If the fish said with full capicity go ahead and eat me then that is ok....

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    You said it was nobody elses business. I'm not really interested in arguing about who said what though, coz it's obvious we both believe pretty much the same thing. My point is simply this: if the behaviour of others causes suffering, it is always our business. Whether that should lead to judging, lecturing or anything else is a different matte.


    doc.....i dont do argueing ....its called debating were i come from
    peace and love to you :p

  • i just broke my veganism today by having pizza for my birthday treat. i will go back to it tommorrow, but damn it tasted good!!!

    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.” -Mark Twain


  • But who is better off, free range farm animals or their wild counterparts? Remember the latter does not have any guarantee of food & water and is under constant threat of being hunted. The death in slaughterhouses is not as bad as in the wild. I am all for making the pastoral industry less cruel such as on site farm butchering of animals rather than put them through long journeys.

  • Wow, it does seem to me, I'm afraid, that at times this thread has tended to go rather hippy-sloppy (eek!), if not perhaps even multi-directionless. Why do I say that? Because all Exedous needs is a better diet. And why on earth should it involve meat?

    Perhaps we should ask ourselves, "Is my current standpoint the same as my real viewpoint?" Or "Do my values match my actions?". If in either case the distance between the two is uncomfortably wide, then do something to reduce it, I suggest, because it's quite possible that we'll find our own hypocrisy no less difficult to live with than the results of a poor diet. So let's help Exedous with his efforts, support him helpfully, (not just there, there, never mind, pat on the head). It's taken a lot of principle for him to go vegan - are we now saying that his principles didn't, and don't, matter?

    .... making an effort is just as important as succeeding in that effort. Failing in that effort should not be something to feel shame over.

    So keep making the effort, renew the effort? Yes, surely, and in the process try hard to avoid delusional thoughts.

    Lifes pressures mean that to live an cruelty free existance isn't easy, so while I don't like his choice I appreciate his right to make that choice and fully understand the difficulties.

    Me, I don't even agree about someone's choice being their right, (unless it's my choice!). No, seriously, such a viewpoint does appear to discount the animals.

    I'm puzzled by the "difficulties" because it seems to me that they really are minimal, but I'm a fifth generation lifetime veggie who's been (pseudo-)vegan for five to six years and the only time that food makes me unwell is when I backslide into dairy products.

    If, for example, a person feels (or is told by a professional dietician), that they're lacking in iron, then they don't need meat, they need iron. And if too much iron makes them less than well, then they should consume less iron. If someone's vegan diet is inadequate in protein, then they should eat more protein. But meat protein? It doesn't follow, I'm afraid.

    Life's pressures? Farmed animal life's pressures?

  • Quote from Duckman

    But who is better off, free range farm animals or their wild counterparts? Remember the latter does not have any guarantee of food & water and is under constant threat of being hunted. The death in slaughterhouses is not as bad as in the wild.

    You know, you're absolutely right. Thinking about it, I might actually request that the government lock me up in prison and deprive me of my liberty in order to protect me from any of the rather nasty accidents that I might otherwise have. It'd be nice to know there'll always be food on my plate and I'll never have to worry about rent. While I'm at it, I think I'll ask if they can end my life prematurely just in case I come to a nasty end.


    Should be great. My girlfriend's gonna get a cell next to me. She's keen on the safety aspect too, so she doesn't mind the fact that they'll be raping her and taking her children away at birth for their own purposes. Although having said that, they plan to kill the male ones off apparently because they don't have much use for them. They mentioned something about keeping her permanently pregnant as well so that they can milk her tits. Sounded a bit weird, but hey, it's gotta beat life in the wild, right? All that freedom.... who knows what might happen??

  • Quote from Milo

    .... making an effort is just as important as succeeding in that effort. Failing in that effort should not be something to feel shame over.

    So keep making the effort, renew the effort? Yes, surely, and in the process try hard to avoid delusional thoughts.

    I agree, never stop making the effort. But don't condemn someone for falling short

    Quote from Milo

    Lifes pressures mean that to live an cruelty free existance isn't easy, so while I don't like his choice I appreciate his right to make that choice and fully understand the difficulties.

    Me, I don't even agree about someone's choice being their right, (unless it's my choice!). No, seriously, such a viewpoint does appear to discount the animals.

    I know, but it isn't meant to sound like that. I'm just saying that I'm not going to adopt a militant attitude and discount someone from my life because they've chosen to eat meat.

    Quote from Milo

    I'm puzzled by the "difficulties" because it seems to me that they really are minimal, but I'm a fifth generation lifetime veggie who's been (pseudo-)vegan for five to six years and the only time that food makes me unwell is when I backslide into dairy products.

    I'm not a fifth generation anything. I tried to go veggie when I was a teenager and my mum told me "you'll eat what you're given" ... It's all well and good when vegetarianism has been part of your life, all your life. I guess if you grow up with the lifestyle then it is a lot easier to know exactly the right things to do.

    Personally I don't, I live in an inner city where there is a big glut in decent food supplies. I have no garden to grow my own, no wholefood shops and not enough money to go buying the best organic vegetables all the time. Apart from that I'm a lousy cook and totally impatient.

    Stopping the meat was the easy bit, replacing the missing nutrients has been a bit of a struggle.

    This time round I haven't eaten meat for about 20 months ... but I miss the taste, I'm not gonna deny that. I would say though that, since turning veggie (for the 3rd time in my life) my health has generally been better than it was before.

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    You know, you're absolutely right. Thinking about it, I might actually request that the government lock me up in prison and deprive me of my liberty in order to protect me from any of the rather nasty accidents that I might otherwise have. It'd be nice to know there'll always be food on my plate and I'll never have to worry about rent. While I'm at it, I think I'll ask if they can end my life prematurely just in case I come to a nasty end.

    Should be great. My girlfriend's gonna get a cell next to me. She's keen on the safety aspect too, so she doesn't mind the fact that they'll be raping her and taking her children away at birth for their own purposes. Although having said that, they plan to kill the male ones off apparently because they don't have much use for them. They mentioned something about keeping her permanently pregnant as well so that they can milk her tits. Sounded a bit weird, but hey, it's gotta beat life in the wild, right? All that freedom.... who knows what might happen??



    :clap:

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    I might actually request that the government lock me up in prison and deprive me of my liberty in order to protect me from any of the rather nasty accidents that I might otherwise have. It'd be nice to know there'll always be food on my plate and I'll never have to worry about rent. While I'm at it, I think I'll ask if they can end my life prematurely just in case I come to a nasty end.

    Should be great. My girlfriend's gonna get a cell next to me. She's keen on the safety aspect too, so she doesn't mind the fact that they'll be raping her and taking her children away at birth for their own purposes. Although having said that, they plan to kill the male ones off apparently because they don't have much use for them. They mentioned something about keeping her permanently pregnant as well so that they can milk her tits. Sounded a bit weird, but hey, it's gotta beat life in the wild, right? All that freedom.... who knows what might happen??



    Oh, man, what a speech!

  • Quote from Paul

    It's all well and good when vegetarianism has been part of your life, all your life. I guess if you grow up with the lifestyle then it is a lot easier to know exactly the right things to do.......

    Stopping the meat was the easy bit, replacing the missing nutrients has been a bit of a struggle.

    .......I would say though that, since turning veggie (for the 3rd time in my life) my health has generally been better than it was before.



    Well, when I was five in 1961 and first went to school vegetarianism was very, very unusual in the UK and I do believe that it is very, very much easier now. There's certainly, I find, a very much smaller requirement to explain oneself and there's a vast array of easily bought prepared and unprepared food. I remember that my mum used to worry a little about vitamin B and when my sister and I were little we were encouraged to eat Yeastrel and mum gave us odd stuff like malt extract but otherwise missing nutrients was not an issue. Unless...............

    What if I 'd been missing summat and if I found it I'd turn into a raving thunderball of energy suchas has never seen before!
    :D

  • Quote from Doktor Atomik

    You know, you're absolutely right. Thinking about it, I might actually request that the government lock me up in prison and deprive me of my liberty in order to protect me from any of the rather nasty accidents that I might otherwise have. It'd be nice to know there'll always be food on my plate and I'll never have to worry about rent. While I'm at it, I think I'll ask if they can end my life prematurely just in case I come to a nasty end.


    Should be great. My girlfriend's gonna get a cell next to me. She's keen on the safety aspect too, so she doesn't mind the fact that they'll be raping her and taking her children away at birth for their own purposes. Although having said that, they plan to kill the male ones off apparently because they don't have much use for them. They mentioned something about keeping her permanently pregnant as well so that they can milk her tits. Sounded a bit weird, but hey, it's gotta beat life in the wild, right? All that freedom.... who knows what might happen??

    I was talking about free range farm animals and IMO they are better off than their wild counterparts. I never have been a fan of feedlots.


    For what it is worth I hate exploitation.

  • Quote from Duckman

    I was talking about free range farm animals and IMO they are better off than their wild counterparts. I never have been a fan of feedlots.

    Well so-called 'free range' animals are still managed - unless they're so free range that they're basically wild anyway. But that certainly doesn't happen in the UK. We don't have the land for it, for one thing. And managing animals still involves every single one of the practices listed in my example - forced impregnation, removal of young from mothers, killing of most male offspring, premature murder of all animals so they can end up on your plate.


    Quote

    and IMO they are better off than their wild counterparts

    Can't you see that that sounds just a little bit ridiculous? Raising animals for food for their own protection?? Being slaughtered for the plate makes them better of than their wild counterparts? Never living naturally or being able to raise their own offspring makes them better off than their wild counterparts? I'm sorry, but that's just a crazy argument.

  • this morning whilst having a cup of tea in bed kindly brought to me by my 15 yr old son(obviously after more pockett money)
    i watched a bit of saturday morning kitchen with anthony worral thompson
    they were all just tucking in to tender lamb with fresh mint and assorted veggies and chatting cheerfully about the best time to cook lamb and the age etc
    as i live next to farms and fields woodlands etc which are full of sheep invarious stages ,some with new born lambs and some in the latter stages of pregnancy it really hit me and made me really sick
    as i said earlier in this thread i have been a veggie since i was 14 and im 42 now ive been on many protests etc
    but after talking with various peeps on this thread mainly you doc
    it got me thinking
    ive had 7 kids and i cant imagine someone steaming in when my babies were 1 and stealing them from me with out a second thought
    i have been in and out of the house all day watching the lambs and thinking there must be more we can do ....but what


    unrelated topic but who saw in the papers yesterday the guy who stabbed his dog 16 times and got fined 900 pounds i think it was
    another guy put a 16 inch blade into his bull mastiff and left it to bleed to death he got 23 days in prison
    weres the justice ...sick

  • Well Dok maybe you should watch some wildlife docos. It seems to me that nature is both beautiful but ruthless at the same time. I don't just feel sorry for the hunted, sometimes I feel sorry for the preditors. To give an example african wild dogs are attacked by lions or hyenas as they are seen as competitors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hunting_Dog


    Some times a has gone out to get lunch in the form of an unfortuate a young zebra of gazelle but then has it snatched away by a lion who cannot be bothered to get his own. There again the lion when it becomes old is no longer fit enough to hunt, dies a slow death and is eventually eaten alive by hyenas or jackals. Nature is one big power struggle.

  • Up to you at the end of the day mate. I think people put too much emphasis on their diets these days (I am vegan by the way, lol). Is it really strange though to go back to eating meat? Does it taste funny? I don't think I could cope with the taste now.