What is truth anyway?

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  • I've been interested in conspiracy theories since I read The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail about 13 years ago. For me it's entertainment, some people watch Eastenders I like conspiracy theories, the wackier the better.
    But I take the Robert Anton Wilson approach.... i'm interested in it as phenomena - the generation of consensual reality. How groups and wider society come to decide what version of reality is "true".
    So now a days I dont need to reach any conclusions about whether there are shape shifting extra dimensional lizards around or whether the earth is hollow...its all just INFORMATION.
    Anyone else out there who can grok this?

  • Truth I suppose all comes down to one single concept,"PERCEPTION" Its about how we choose to accept and process the information presented to us. Robert Anton Wilson said it best when he said "I have never experienced another human being. I have experienced my impressions of them"



    The truth is what ever you want it to be....


  • Truth for most is a "belief", and a belief is always build upon a doubt. After all, even consider your preceptions, we believe our thoughts!

    Truth is that which is beyond change, thoughts change, emotions change, existence changes, body changes.....the one that know the changes never changes

  • Do i believe in conspiracy theory? With out question, NO i do not. I think one of the greatest misinterpretations in the phrase "conspiracy theory" is in the use of the word "theory" This implies that the information put before you could be of a questionable nature or could come from a questionable source. Based on this assumption, i can not in good conscience believe in a "conspiracy theory". However... The information given to us by alternative media sources and the information i myself have researched in depth over the last 10 years leads me to only one conclusion...... It is "conspiracy fact" There is no doubt in my mind at all that there are those in existence who are working toward the sole purpose of controller and power through deception and misinformation! There is too much information available in the public domain to relegate it as a whole to something as simple as a "theory". i think young miss reality said it best ...


    "So now a days I dont need to reach any conclusions about whether there are shape shifting extra dimensional lizards around or whether the earth is hollow...its all just INFORMATION."


    The conspiracy is just plain simple FACT! No question!

  • Truth for most is a "belief", and a belief is always build upon a doubt. After all, even consider your preceptions, we believe our thoughts!

    Truth is that which is beyond change, thoughts change, emotions change, existence changes, body changes.....the one that know the changes never changes


    :clap:That's profound, and pretty well sums up where i'm at. I'm interested in knowledge in the gnostic sense, i'm not so interested in, or willing to buy into, what goes as truth in the world of the media etc. If we are going to move beyond our trapped ways of looking at things, maybe we need to let go of our need for absolutes. Loosen the grip duality has on us and reduce the knee jerk reaction of i'm right/your wrong.
    Also move beyond the victim state of us versus them.

  • I like what Bill Hicks said ‘… all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There’s no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.’


    ah it's a sunny day x

  • YOU DID!!!!
    Just that Bill used to say things like "how am I going to crawl out of this comedy hole i've just dug" after making a profound socio-political statement and feeling that he had lost the audience somewhat!!!
    He followed this by saying "Don't worry, there's a dick joke coming soon."
    ;)

  • I like what Bill Hicks said ‘… all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There’s no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.’


    ah it's a sunny day x


    I live my life by this quote everyday!!! Remember life is just a ride. :whistle:

  • truth is just a lie in your head untill someone else believes it :whistle:



    Truth is just "your perception" until somone else believes it.... then it becomes reality. Reality is the perception of the majority (or so they say)..... Perhaps, the reality we know now is nothing more than the perception of a minority enforced upon the majority through nefarious means to fulfill their own ends? (just throwing the idea out there..)


    Alternatively.... reality and truth are nothing more than an illusion caused by the lack of drugs and alcohol.


    My honest personal view tho... Reality being as closely linked with truth as it is, is nothing more than what "YOU" perceive it to be, reality is what "YOU" choose!! Live your life with out fear of retribution from others and don't let any one else dictate what your life and your existence in this reality should be!!!!!!!!!! Your life is your own...... live it by your rules! Choose your own truth. Choose your own reality.
    "Buy Coke a Cola" bwahahahaha!!!!!
    No seriously, fuck it, make up your own mind and decide what the truth is in your own life..... make your own choice..... coke or pepsi? Its up to you and no one else.



    For those who dont get the "coke or pepsi" metaphore, (i know there are those who wont get it) its just to ilistrate the idea of choice between one thing or another. Coke, pepsi, mc donnalds, burger king, black or white... it doesn mater... Its just a choice you make. What ever you choose can never actualy be right or wrong. Its justy a choice.


    To answer the Q......"What is truth anyway?" Truth is what ever you choose it to be..... Truth just is what it is.



  • To answer the Q......"What is truth anyway?" Truth is what ever you choose it to be..... Truth just is what it is.



    really. you believe that?

    so you believe whatever people think is true, is truth. like a man raping his daughter for all those years and having kids with her. The result that has had on her well being, confidence and what she feels to be true.

    is that truth as well?

  • really. you believe that?

    so you believe whatever people think is true, is truth. like a man raping his daughter for all those years and having kids with her. The result that has had on her well being, confidence and what she feels to be true.

    is that truth as well?


    To her yes it is.... it wouldn't be the truth as far as you and I are concerned... but that is because we are not her... we haven't lived her life... her perception of what truth is will change over time... ;)


    Another point is that the father acted on what be believed to be truth as well... it seems abhorrent to us... but again that it is because we have our own version of what 'truth' is...

  • To him yes it is.... it wouldn't be the truth as far as you and I are concerned... but that is because we are not him... we haven't lived his life... experienced whatever it was that made him view his actions in the way that he did... ;)



    :wall: i can't believe you belive that. i mean, i can see your logic but what about your compassion. do you sacrifice your compassion for the sake of logic.

    if compassion is also part of the make up of what we believe to be true then it has a role to play. without compassion your like a robot. thats just cold.

  • :wall: i can't believe you belive that. i mean, i can see your logic but what about your compassion. do you sacrifice your compassion for the sake of logic.

    if compassion is also part of the make up of what we believe to be true then it has a role to play. without compassion your like a robot. thats just cold.


    Actually I see it as being quite the opposite actually... I am not saying that what he has done is right... but neither can I say that his version of 'reality'/'truth' is wrong... I think that is a huge part of showing compassion and acceptance towards people... even those people who commit acts that are abhorrent to us... ;)


    What do we know about this man's life... what experiences he had... I think that it is pretty obvious that something happened to him in his past for him to be able to see 'reality' in the manner that he did for years...

  • Actually I see it as being quite the opposite actually... I am not saying that what he has done is right... but neither can I say that his version of 'reality'/'truth' is wrong... I think that is a huge part of showing compassion and acceptance towards people... even those people who commit acts that are abhorrent to us... ;)

    What do we know about this man's life... what experiences he had... I think that it is pretty obvious that something happened to him in his past for him to be able to see 'reality' in the manner that he did for years...



    ill tell you what we know about the girls life. she has been raped for years and locked under some stairs never to come out untill now. her whole life has been torment a torcher as a result of this mans 'so called truth' rubbish! basically.

    he knows it is wrong to rape, hold captive otherwise he wouldnt have hidden it. it doesnt matter whats happend to you in life it doesnt justify rape ever!

  • Elliott..

    you missunderstand the point...




    Truth is in itself separate from the things we as individuals believe to be moral and just. Truth is something that transcends our simple perceptions. To a vegan the slaughter of an animal is the most disgusting and vile thing imaginable. To them, its murder plain and simple. In a carnivores reality, its ok to feed off the flesh of animals, to them there is nothing wrong with it. Try to step back from each point of view and utilize the situation, not the moral ideal. the truth of the matter in this case is.... "some people eat meat, some dont." you can twist the moral compas wherever you want on this issue. What most of us see as truth is nothing more than our own perception, weather it be yours or somone elses.


    Now...


    if you wanna start throwing morals into the equation you are changing the topic completely. if you wanna ask me your original Q "do i think what happened to the young girl in the basement is right or not" here is my answer.... as a sentient being who tries to live by compasion and love, i think what happened to the girl is a truly terable thing and i believe her father should not get the death sentance but should be forced to live in an enviroment where he can live the terror he caused for the rest of his life. infact i think he should be provided with the best medical care available to prolong his existence so he can suffer for what he did as long as is possible!!!



    I come back to my original point tho..... truth, real truth, universal truth, the truth that can not be denied by any means. Weather it be by philisophical, moral or any other means..... Truth just is. Truth has no moral compas. The trees and the ocean and stones and sand and all other things in existance with out what we believe to be a sentient nature dont adhear to the morals and feelings and all the other things we concider when regarding what we believe as truth. Black is black, white is white. The truth pertaining to their existance in this reality just is. Our perception of their reality is something very diferent from what is truth. Truth is universal. Truth just is.


    Just remember tho, even if you dont believe somone elses truth, you should still try to accept that it is their truth and hope that they and others will accept and respect (where aplicable) your truth in the same way. Its called KARMA.

  • Elliott..

    you missunderstand the point...



    lets just take a look at your post for a second there. maybe im not hearing you right but ...


    Our perception of their reality is something very diferent from what is truth. Truth is universal. Truth just is.

    ok im with you so far...

    but then this happeneds...


    Just remember tho, even if you dont believe somone elses truth, you should still try to accept that it is their truth and hope that they and others will accept and respect (where aplicable) your truth in the same way.



    this is the point where it just dont make sence. ....believe someone elses truth. you dont mean, their perception do you :P

  • The way I see round this dilema is maybe best summed up the way Aleister Crowley said it with his much misunderstood phrase
    "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law!"
    This is based on the idea that if each of us did what was fully right for us, based on our own truth then all would be well.... but this involves also allowing everyone else to do their will and not to stand in the way of others living by their truth. Basically respect for each others versions of reality and a lack of fear to persue our own.

  • The way I see round this dilema is maybe best summed up the way Aleister Crowley said it with his much misunderstood phrase
    "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law!"
    This is based on the idea that if each of us did what was fully right for us, based on our own truth then all would be well.... but this involves also allowing everyone else to do their will and not to stand in the way of others living by their truth. Basically respect for each others versions of reality and a lack of fear to persue our own.



    Absolutely perfectly put young miss reality :) Have you spent any time reading Carl Jung's philosophy's? Is surprisingly interesting how closely related to Mr Crowleys work it is with out the hoity toity speach. Jungs corolation between mysticism and modern mans perceptions of the world are astounding!




    To elliot,


    all i can say is well done for being so astute at spotting the flaws in my argument. Most would have just accepted my drivel and left it at that. ITs nice being challenged for a change :) I still feel tho that the basis of my arguments is correct but my mistakes are mostly just my lack of understanding of the english language. Afrikaans being my mother tongue. Thats my excuse and im sticking to it hehehehehe :insane:

  • "Going boldly nowhere......" that's funny!!!

    Well I have read a little about his ideas on archetypes and I love the idea of a collective unconscious. it ties in with other stuff i've read about collective mind spaces...Sheldrake's morphogenic field, the akashic records etc. Love the idea that the brain is not a producer of thought but a RECIEVER....getting even more bizzare when we think about where ideas actually come from!!
    Think we need more cake!!!!

  • "Going boldly nowhere......" that's funny!!!

    Well I have read a little about his ideas on archetypes and I love the idea of a collective unconscious. it ties in with other stuff i've read about collective mind spaces...Sheldrake's morphogenic field, the akashic records etc. Love the idea that the brain is not a producer of thought but a RECIEVER....getting even more bizzare when we think about where ideas actually come from!!
    Think we need more cake!!!!



    i think what is more likely is that its a producer as well as a reciever

  • The way I see round this dilema is maybe best summed up the way Aleister Crowley said it with his much misunderstood phrase
    "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law!"
    This is based on the idea that if each of us did what was fully right for us, based on our own truth then all would be well.... but this involves also allowing everyone else to do their will and not to stand in the way of others living by their truth. Basically respect for each others versions of reality and a lack of fear to persue our own.



    Would anarchy bring out the "best" (lovingkindness, peacefulness etc) in people?


    'Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance'