Is "an eye for an eye" justified in cases like Baby P? [SPLIT THREAD]

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  • Well, I said I might pop back occasionally, and have glanced every now and then, but I havnt been tempted to post until now....

    Funnily enough, I had a feeling you were gonna respond to this thread. :S


    Anyway... great post. To be honest, I'm surprised by the line you've taken, and it's always nice to be pleasantly surprised by people. :)

  • Quote from Tekno

    Again I would like to apologise if I have offended either of you... :)


    I'm not offended,and I'm glad you mentioned the families of the perpertrator because they suffer too and thats never considered in 'hang em' debates.State murder has as many victims as 'illegal' murder.

    Quote from hippy.com

    One thng I can never get my head round in discussions like this is how someone can see why some people murder and do the things they do , then on the other hand they cant understand peoples reactions to murders like this , strange!


    Ditto Atomic.Peoples emotional reactions are completely understandable,its the refusal to see that punishments cant be based on those reactions thats the problem.Theyre evil,kill em' is a really lazy way to think and it deserves challenging.

  • Funnily enough, I had a feeling you were gonna respond to this thread. :S


    Anyway... great post. To be honest, I'm surprised by the line you've taken, and it's always nice to be pleasantly surprised by people. :)


    There are few things in the universe more satisfying than messing with your head :) :waves:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • I never said I didn't understand it - I don't sympathise with it. We have the luxury of being a step removed, and we are therefore able to respond calmly and rationally. By choosing to respond on a base, emotional level, we're engaging in a destructive act of self-indulgence that is damaging to ourselves and to society as a whole. There is no excuse for a lynch-mob mentality. We can either be better than those whose actions we deplore, or we can choose to be the same as them - or possibly worse. But it's a choice. I have no sympathy for those who choose the latter option. It's mentally and emotionally lazy.



    You did not say you didint understand it but you proved it in your actions by resorting to name calling .
    I think I am unique as I understand everyones feelings of anger and not just murderers . ;)

  • You did not say you didint understand it but you proved it in your actions by resorting to name calling .

    No, you proved your ignorance by jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:


    Quote

    I think I am unique as I understand everyones feelings of anger and not just murderers . ;)

    Well my, aren't you special. As I've said repeatedly, I understand people's anger too. Any human being would feel anger - the difference is whether we mistake it for rational thinking and let it dictate our response, or whether we move beyond it and actually engage our brains. I have no sympathy for those too lazy to do the latter.


    Still, I'm sure seeing as how you're so unique, you clearly know what I'm thinking better than I do. :rolleyes:

  • No, you proved your ignorance by jumping to conclusions. :rolleyes:

    Well my, aren't you special. As I've said repeatedly, I understand people's anger too. Any human being would feel anger - the difference is whether we mistake it for rational thinking and let it dictate our response, or whether we move beyond it and actually engage our brains. I have no sympathy for those too lazy to do the latter.

    Still, I'm sure seeing as how you're so unique, you clearly know what I'm thinking better than I do. :rolleyes:



    I dont think seeing you name call in text is jumping to conclusions it is there for all to see..
    If you understood the anger like you stated you would not have name called. Maybe you should of took a step back and engaged your brain first . Practice what you preach Id say.

  • I dont think seeing you name call in text is jumping to conclusions it is there for all to see.

    Erm... no it's not. I've explained this to you really clearly - there's a difference between understanding a gut reaction, and sympathising with people mistaking that gut reaction for rational thought. Please don't be obtuse.


    Quote

    If you understood the anger like you stated you would not have name called. Maybe you should of took a step back and engaged your brain first . Practice what you preach Id say.

    The big difference is, I recognise my own response as an emotive reaction to something that sickens me, so I don't allow it to prevent me from understanding the psychology behind people's behaviour.


    Now you can either take me at my word and carry on this discussion on the basis of what I actually think, or you can insist on telling me what I think, in which instance you'll need to find another thread to post on.

  • Many murders happen because people become enraged and lose control. They don't plan their action but as a result people end up dead.

    Many lynchings happen because people become enraged and lose control. They don't plan their action but as a result people end up dead.

    Instead of a lynch mob, shall we have a cool dispassionate employee of the state to carry out judicial execution on our behalf.

    Step forward Dr Mengele, I have a new job for you.

  • Erm... no it's not. I've explained this to you really clearly - there's a difference between understanding a gut reaction, and sympathising with people mistaking that gut reaction for rational thought. Please don't be obtuse.

    The big difference is, I recognise my own response as an emotive reaction to something that sickens me, so I don't allow it to prevent me from understanding the psychology behind people's behaviour.

    Now you can either take me at my word and carry on this discussion on the basis of what I actually think, or you can insist on telling me what I think, in which instance you'll need to find another thread to post on.



    Obtuse eh. Name calling again ! The result of an exhausted mind.

  • Obtuse eh. Name calling again ! The result of an exhausted mind.

    Look mate, you're the one throwing insults around here. You're refusing to accept what I'm telling you. That makes you obtuse. That's a statement of fact - not an insult.


    One last chance... debate politely without dragging this down into a personal argument, and debate based upon opinions that I actually hold rather than based upon opinions that you're telling me I hold... or find another thread.

  • Look mate, you're the one throwing insults around here. You're refusing to accept what I'm telling you. That makes you obtuse. That's a statement of fact - not an insult.

    One last chance... debate politely without dragging this down into a personal argument, and debate based upon opinions that I actually hold rather than based upon opinions that you're telling me I hold... or find another thread.



    It is going a little off topic . Could you show me though where I have thrown an insult?



  • The brute in us thinks otherwise, but then what does the brute know about outgrowing brutalism? :) It's ruled by fear and conceit, demanding security from a world it sees as enemy. You dont heal it with a club, you heal it by teaching it, gradually if need be, how the world is not the ugly monster it believes it is but is rather a place filled with beauty *everywhere*. How we go about this is too complex for a post on a message board, but we can start by not playing the part of the brutal monster ourselves :)


    You might dismiss this as the nonsense of some dippy soft left hippy know-nothing or whatever, and of course I dont expect to fix the world with a post to a message board, :hypno: but I do hope it can encourage someone being consumed by rage to stop, and think, and maybe consider that there *is* a different way open to us.


    :clap: Very well said! :D


    Ah, well. Back to lurking :)


    *waves*


    *waves back*


    Nooo don't start lurking again, especially when you are speaking so much sense! :D (Btw this is not sarcasm!)

  • I know this thread is a touchy subject and lots of people arnt going to agree on all things but this is a disscusion and should not be made into an argument.
    Everyone is allowed their own opinions and people will think what they think one should not try to force their opinion onto others it discludes all from the disscusion.



    sorry if i offended anyone but i thought id get my two pence in too:whistle::).

    as for the thread i believe that violence does breed violence and no the death penalty would not lower the amount of murders that happen, the people comminting the murder would probably be grateful that they wouldnt have to spend their life in guilt or pain... they wouldnt feel anything their dead.
    there is no punishment which fits the crime, which is why it will always happen...
    that is until society sorts itself out and everyone learns to respect life and appreciates what life is and what it means:hippy:.

  • Are you saying you won't come back unless I promise to change? :(


    Change? You?! :faint:


    I might pop in a little more often..... :) We shall see :)

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • .
    there is no punishment which fits the crime, which is why it will always happen...

    Does punishment need to "fit" the crime?


    I think the heart of the issue is what purpose we believe punishment to serve. The choices are basically to deter, reform or to avenge. I believe than all punishment should aim to deter or reform. Revenge serves no purpose other than to dehumanise us.

  • I agree with reforming people. Lots of people come out of prison changed people.

    You shut your mouth. How can you say I go about things the wrong way? I am human and I need to be loved just like everybody else does

  • some do but mainly they dont and then they are let out to start a new life and do it again only they've learnt more and where not to go wrong and get caught properely learnt more inside then on then out .




    I agree with reforming people. Lots of people come out of prison changed people.

  • some do but mainly they dont and then they are let out to start a new life and do it again only they've learnt more and where not to go wrong and get caught properely learnt more inside then on then out .

    Indeed. I see this as a failure of the prison system, but also of society. If you release people into exactly the same life and circumstances, then it's no surprise that they re-offend.

  • Quote

    I believe than all punishment should aim to deter or reform. Revenge serves no purpose other than to dehumanise us.



    i agree a punishment should aim to deter or reform:),
    but i cant see how we can deter murder in our current society, there is no punishment harsh enough for the crime of murder to be a deterant:S.
    and to be reformed you have to be caught first the sentances are a joke life doesnt mean life get out on good behaviour, jail isnt a deterant for any crime let alone murder thats why they happen:S.
    its upto society to change for the better one day we may learn:hippy:.

  • i agree a punishment should aim to deter or reform:),
    but i cant see how we can deter murder in our current society, there is no punishment harsh enough for the crime of murder to be a deterant:S.

    It's not that we lack harsh punishments - it's simply that if someone is fucked up enough to kill someone, then they're unlikely to be thinking about the consequences of their actions. You could sentence them to have their balls slowly roasted over a fire, and it still wouldn't stop people killing, because they act before they think.


    Quote

    jail isnt a deterant for any crime let alone murder thats why they happen:S.

    Well it certainly deters most normal people from crimes they might otherwise commit - tax evasion, for example. What it doesn't do is deter people who are so criminalised that they're either desperate or fucked-up enough to act without consideration for the consequences. And the issue their is society - how it shapes and creates such people to begin with. People don't exist in a vacuum.