Education...

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  • We're not in a tribal sociaty though...


    If its more homework you're suggesting.... i think children work too hard in the day sometimes, and to come home and do more work rather than creative play or chilling/recouperating...


    The learning system needs to be changed so that, well, you learn most when you don't even know you're learning...if that makes sense...so its not saying children shouldnt learn at home, but they shouldnt feel like they are......... taking kids out in the garden to talk about frogs is far more ....better (lack of word!) than sitting them in a room and forcing them to do sums, whihc they are not getting any enjoyment out of. Learning is fun, its one of the most natural things for a child to want to do, but the way it is presented makes people resent it.

  • Quote from Fibi

    you make so much sense thank you for your reply :clap:




    take on board though that Muffy has said, and this is reality, the change she has helped bring about..will be too late for her kids to benfit from. you have to work with the teacher/school you are dealt. but parental involement will reduce the impact of a not so good teacher in a specific year or indeed a less than perfect school.

  • who said education is not creative play or chilling? and as i have said, there should be time alloted in the school day for this, not more 'work' after school

    i really feel you dont read my posts Naeni and then you seem to just comment on what you see fit... its strange and very frustrating!!

  • Quote from yoursinuk

    take on board though that Muffy has said, and this is reality, the change she has helped bring about..will be too late for her kids to benfit from.



    thats worrying though, i care about other kids yeah but mine are the most important to me.

  • Quote from Fibi

    Lots of food for thought there, thank you.

    your right it would disrupt a classroom situation if a parent was a part of it, but i believe only because that is not the norm... perhaps if it was, it wouldnt be a problem or be embarrassing for the child

    or do you think that is a definate?




    treating all kids as equal when one is yours ..should not be asked of a parent

  • Quote from Fibi

    who said education is not creative play or chilling? and as i have said, there should be time alloted in the school day for this, not more 'work' after school

    i really feel you dont read my posts Naeni and then you seem to just comment on what you see fit... its strange and very frustrating!!


    i was commenting on homework, a similar issue which lots of people think there is not enough of.


    I'mjust bouncing ideas about, but for some reaosn you keep thinking I'm aiming them at you.

  • Quote from Fibi

    as i have said, more choice than just homeschooled or schoooled, perhaps a medium between the two where the children went to school AND were given time to home study


    Yes you and everyone else...



    Quote from fibi

    yes i do, had you read my posts throughly you would have seen many many different ideas that i have, such as parents in a tribal society teaching the children the craft that they excell at

    And that would work in an industralised, capatalistic society would it... I thought this thread was inteded to seriously discuss changes to the education system...


    Quote from fibi

    No not more involved in the classroom, more involved full stop


    Your point... I think you will find all of the parents you have been debating with are very very involved... but we also realise that we have to keep some of our own identity and time...:rolleyes:


    Quote from fibi

    but in a society where you had to take time out to teach and learn with your kids and other kids, that wouldnt be an issue because everyone would be doing it, i think we could even possibly SAVE money by doing this.


    But we don't live in that kind of society do we... You have to work within a relevant framework....



    Quote from fibi

    a parent who has to be FORCED to help their child, probably shouldnt be a parent, if responsiblity is put back on the parents i believe they will take it, as it is. its far to easy to pop a sprog and not take any involvment in their development, this is why we have such troubles with teenagers running riot, parents dont give a shit, because from the age of 5 when they first dropped them off at school, they dont have to


    Spot on! :thumbup:

    Quote from fibi

    some parents like you guys CHOOSE to be involved, but it should not be a choice, if you birth it, you should be prepared to take some responsiblity for it IMHO

    I don't just choose to have this much involvement... I know that I owe my daughter that...



    Quote from fibi

    see this bit doesnt make much sense, i AM gathering information from many different places about education, raising kids and generally learning what i can do to give my kids the best start

    are you suggesting i run out and get pregnant? would that be doing something about it?

    or maybe i should just concentrate on one little comment rather than reading the whole book at let it control how i respond to everything else said?? Oh wait - you've got that bit sorted.


    No you ARE generalising... typing without thinking at times and getting the wrong end of the stick... and also not really paying attention to what others are trying to say... I did point out to you that it was more than one little comment that pissed me off...:mad:


    What I am suggesting you do is offer your time and volunteer at a school... or get involved in raising awareness of educational issues... :rolleyes:

  • no i think that home work should be a more active part of a child and parents day, regardless of wether they work or not, and time should be made in our society to make that avaliable to more people.

    but i think we have different views on what home-work entails

  • Quote from Fibi

    no i think that home work should be a more active part of a child and parents day, regardless of wether they work or not, and time should be made in our society to make that avaliable to more people.

    but i think we have different views on what home-work entails


    Really until you started spouting crap I thought we all had pretty much the same ideas.. teaching children practical stuff that will help them be happy, well rounded adult that know how to look after themselves in many different situations... People who understand the value of things and other people.. Who know not to just believe what they are told but to actively explore what they want to know...


    Is it that different?

  • Quote from tekno



    I don't just choose to have this much involvement... I know that I owe my daughter that...



    and that makes you a hero in my eyes, seriously much respect




    Quote

    No you ARE generalising... typing without thinking at times and getting the wrong end of the stick... and also not really paying attention to what others are trying to say... I did point out to you that it was more than one little comment that pissed me off...:mad:



    i am sorry i have upset you, it was not my intention

    Quote


    What I am suggesting you do is offer your time and volunteer at a school... or get involved in raising awareness of educational issues... :rolleyes:



    good idea, i am quite hippy-fied though! i wonder how the local school would react to me turning up to teach kids about tax returns :D

    i would find it hard to be part of a system i intrinsically disagree with, if schools were a bit more mallable to different circumstance and conditions, i would probably be far more up for working in one

  • Quote from tekno

    Really until you started spouting crap I thought we had pretty much the same ideas.. teaching children practical stuff that will help them be happy, well rounded adult that know how to look after themselves in many different situations... People who understand the value of things and other people.. Who know not to just believe what they are told but to actively explore what they want to know...

    Is it that different?



    that was in response to Naemis comments about kids working hard at school all day, and more homework simply adding to there stresses

    i think home-work is far more based on the things you have mentioned here

  • Quote from yoursinuk

    treating all kids as equal when one is yours ..should not be asked of a parent



    Why? Surely if we all have a part in the upbringing of eachother children, the fact that we birthed one of them becomes secondary?

  • Quote from fibi

    good idea, i am quite hippy-fied though! i wonder how the local school would react to me turning up to teach kids about tax returns



    just go along and help out with listening to some of them read to you out loud and helping them.

  • Quote from Fibi



    i would find it hard to be part of a system i intrinsically disagree with, if schools were a bit more mallable to different circumstance and conditions, i would probably be far more up for working in one


    Here are some lyrics from an old punk song... I think they are pretty relevant..


    If you gotta job
    You can be an agent
    You can work for revolution
    In your place of employment


    If you gotta job you can be an agent
    You can work for revolution in your place of employment
    If you work in a factory throw a spanner in the works
    Internal sabotage, hit them where it hurts


    Subvert - Subvert - Subvert - Subvert


    If you gotta job
    Where they treat you like a slave
    Where they treat you like a zombie
    In their corporate grave


    If you work in a office making tea for the bosses
    While they are getting richer on ten time your pay
    They may think you're stupid but you're working undercover
    You've got the potential to disobey


    Subvert - Subvert - Subvert - Subvert


    If you've got a job
    Cos there's nothing else to do
    Where they think they've got you trapped in
    The boxes that they choose


    If you've got a job you can be an agent
    If you work in a kitchen you can redistribute food
    If you are a policeman ordered to arrest me
    You don't have to do it, you can refuse


    Subvert - Subvert - Subvert - Subvert


    Subvert - Subvert - Subvert - Subvert


    If you gotta job
    You can be an agent
    You can work for revolution
    In your place of employment


    If you gotta job you can be an agent
    You can work for revolution in your place of employment
    If you work in a factory throw a spanner in the works
    Internal sabotage, hit them where it hurts



    Or if that is not your flavour there are plenty of campagins on education that could use someone like you getting involved! :D


    No worries about offeneding me... I don't hold grudges EVER... and am glad we talked it over... :D

  • Quote from Fibi

    Why? Surely if we all have a part in the upbringing of eachother children, the fact that we birthed one of them becomes secondary?



    errr no. sorry.. I believe unconditional love is a precondition of a healthy happy upbringing

  • Cheers for the song (i can just see you all sweaty with a big ring in your nose and some toe breaking DMs)

    i honestly think the world of the parentals on here, i know i often go about it the wrong way but i am worried about sending my kids to school

    i love to see how you guys deal with it, its great...

    mothers are the true heros (to me) and the daddies that stick around out of love, its a beautiful thing

    so thank you for all your thoughts, they mean the world to me

    Fi

    xxx

  • Quote from yoursinuk

    errr no. sorry.. I believe unconditional love is a precondition of a healthy happy upbringing



    you are most probably completely right, i cant comment further because i still have the joy of holding my child for the first time and feeling that love

  • Quote



    there has to be a medium, it shouldnt be simple- homeschooled or schooled, there should be some way to have something in between


    and the cry went up!!
    I feel this too.. i had real desire to home ed both of my kids.. (they are 11 years apart) but due to circumstances it has not been possible.. I wish there was a middle ground.. not home ed 24/7.. not school.. a bit of everything... flexible schooling. more open minded systems such as montessori, and the steiner school.. but a happy medium would be wonderful!
    There are some

  • See that is an interesting point about the happy medium cos its something that me and charlie's dad are gonna seriously look into over the next 12 months.. In this day and age of modern technology and t'internet, we see absolutely no reason why Charlie couldn't be home educated by his Dad up in the North East so he can spend longer amounts of time up there... it would more than likely be the last weeks at end of term, when things are winding down at school anyways, that we would want to impliment this..I've told Charlie that it won't even get considered again unless he pulls his weight and knuckles down in class and stops dicking about... but I think you are right.. certainly with familes as they are these days, there does seem to be a need for extra fluidity within the teaching of children...
    When the time comes we shall both discuss with the form tutor, year head and head master to see if we can accomodate Charlie's need to spend more time with his Dad and baby sister within a partial home school environment.


    I don't see why he couldn't email work in for example...


    Its something I discussed loosely with Charlie's old form tutor last year - so the possibility is out there - i think it comes down to parents making nd implementing the changes they would like to see... cos at end of day i am quite within my rights to register my son as part-time educated in much the same way as some people on here have their kids as part-time educated cos their parents do the festival circuit over the summer... I think I'd have to give specific dates etc but thats no problem...
    If we do this its largely based on how well charlie can manage to settle down this year n do the work as presented at school.. if he can do that then we will start talkin about part-time home ed ;)

  • Quote from claireaitchbee

    and the cry went up!!
    I feel this too.. i had real desire to home ed both of my kids.. (they are 11 years apart) but due to circumstances it has not been possible.. I wish there was a middle ground.. not home ed 24/7.. not school.. a bit of everything... flexible schooling. more open minded systems such as montessori, and the steiner school.. but a happy medium would be wonderful!
    There are some



    Yeah i would like not neccessarily to home school my kids entirely, but to base my time with them, on stuff that will benifit them at school and in life. Why learn about historical places and cultures in a class room, when you can visit them, or find evidence of them all over the place?

    I believe it is possible to have a system where as long as we can show the child is learning and is moving forward. As long as this is the case, i dont see why we should be considered criminal or 'wrong doers' for wishing to bring our children up our own way, and at their own pace.

    i suppose i wouldnt mind sending my child into school for six hours a day, if it didnt seem to be a complete and utter waste of time.



  • Thats fantastic!! please let us know how it goes, this is exactly the sort of thing i hope to achieve with my children but i dont know of anyone that has managed it, it seems to be either home schooled or schooled and i really believe thats not the right way to think about education, if a child can work to the best of their ability in a diverse environment, why not give them that freedom??

    can wait to hear how it all goes honey xx

  • I really haven't got the time right now to dedicate to my reply, which I'm annoyed about as it's a subject close to my heart.

    Small bit of background info-I had to homeschool my stepson for 6 months as he was being bullied at school in year 9, physically kicked and trampled by a group of boys, and the school couldn't care less. They wanted to put him in isolation, and not punish the bullies. No other schools had any spaces, so he stayed home with me. Now I did well at school, and enjoy learning, and we did ok. I taught him Algebra singlehandedly, and we did lots of interesting work in Science because he seemed like he'd learnt nothing scientific in his 3 years at school. More importantly I taught him how to learn, and seek knowledge, and research, which he couldn't do before. He went back to a new school happier, settled and keen to learn and do well. He's still a lazy sod, but he'll do ok.:thumbup:


    Anyway, I'm not a hardcore homeschooler, I do prefer my kids to be in school, as long as it is working for them. I don't necessarily like the whole school ethos though. When you say "Children learn social skills at school", what you actually mean is they learn to keep out of trouble by shutting their mouths, conforming, keeping their heads down, making other people happy instead of themselves etc etc etc. All individuality is stamped out, and they are institutionalised.
    Along with all the useless rubbish like fractions and periodic tables, our kids are taught to sit down, shut up, never think outside the box, and keep your head down or you'll get bullied - by teachers and pupils alike. All those horrible kids out there that you hear about on the news? One day your kids will be mixing with them, learning to assimilate with them, fit in with them, and eventually become like them.

  • My son went to an alternative secondary school that was close to Fibi's ideal.Parents and people in the community sharing their skills,the kids cooking lunch,cleaning the school,growing veg etc.Academic subjects in the morning and a choice of creative/practical ones in the afternoon.


    In the 5yrs he was there the schools entire number of students didnt exceed 30.


    Sounds fantastic on paper but the reality was a complete shambles.Because not everyones cut out to teach.And you can be just as much of a dick or a 'poison' when youre sharing metalwork skills in a small group as traditional teachers can be.


    'Tribal teaching' is only going to work to your satisfaction if you get to choose/vet your tribe members.and thats not practical for anything bigger than a tiny scale.And,imo,part of a parents job is to teach kids-from a young age-to be discerning,questioning and to communicate with you so you can balance any adverse affects of them coming into contact with dicks,even when those dicks are in authority.


    Unfortunatly,my teaching my child that meant he wouldve struggled in a trad school,hence the alternative one.He personally got a lot out of belonging to that community but it did my head in massively and I wouldnt recommend it to most people.


    I could say a lot more about it but my main point is that educational ideals dont always work in reality coz people are involved and people are complicated,screwy beings.And also education has to be about the childs needs,not the parents ideals coz kids are individuals too and some kids get a lot out of the system as it is now,even when the parents fundamentally disagree with it.

  • "The teacher stands in front of the class, but the lesson plan he can't recall
    The students eyes can't perceive the lies bouncing off every fucking wall"


    "Yes I know my enemies, they're the teachers that taught me to fight me"


    Some words of wisdom from the great Zach De La Rocha. That's as intelligent a contribution as you're gonna get from me at this time of night :insane:


    Will come back to this thread again tomorrow, some very interesting thoughts here. My mum's a teacher, so I'll ask her what she thinks too. :)

  • A best mate of mine is a third generation teacher - both her parents and her grandparents teach. Her father taught her what "school" meant to their family.


    "Sometimes Children Have Only Our Love".


    I take issue with the belief that all teachers and the establishment is evil. I think that stems from the same source - people who had utterly crap childhoods with terrible teachers and experiences. It's ugly, and not a bit right, but as is true of many things (and indeed perhaps all things), one person's experience is not rote of the world as a whole.


    Quote

    When you say "Children learn social skills at school", what you actually mean is they learn to keep out of trouble by shutting their mouths, conforming, keeping their heads down, making other people happy instead of themselves etc etc etc. All individuality is stamped out, and they are institutionalised.


    What I'm saying is EXACTLY "my son learns social skills while in school". Full stop. You'd have to have seen him before with other children; he stayed in his own world and he didn't leave it. But again, I chose a nursey where getting my son in a group was a main focus, not in making him "conform". And it worked - he's an outgoing charming lad and most people who meet him adore him.


    I don't disagree there are schools which don't give a toss out there, but that's when as parents we either come down on them like a tonne of bricks or we move schools. I had a racist teacher who wanted to test my IQ because "black students just aren't as intelligent as white ones". She locked me in a room all day once more colouring my pilgrim-colouring sheet with rainbow colours because I'd run out of black and brown. My mother tripped, and had the woman transferred, she was also instrumental for a lot of changes in the school system in the town, but eventually she was so frustrated with the total lack of empathy from the governing board and the infighting and politics I think she just gave up.


    I don't know what the alternatives could have even been for me, as there was nowhere else for us to go but that podunk town in nowhere, and as a result I had a serious school phobia myself. However I also realised that was MY hangup, and I refuse to allow my personal issues get in the way of my son's needs. He's not me, even though he's my son. And so far, he loves what he's doing right now. As long as he's happy, then I'll put him in those damn uniforms I loathe so badly, and I'll attend the Christmas party carols and so forth even though we're pagan. For all I know my son will "rebel" and decide to grow up and be a lawyer or an accountant, but then again, he's him...he's allowed to do whatever he loves.


    In the end, if something is going wrong in a school, then we either need to step up and change it, or move on. Volunteer, get on the PTA, the board of Education or even the papers and make a noise.

  • Quote

    When you say "Children learn social skills at school", what you actually mean is they learn to keep out of trouble by shutting their mouths, conforming, keeping their heads down, making other people happy instead of themselves etc etc etc. All individuality is stamped out, and they are institutionalised.

    God no... don't mean that at all... My son's had specialist one on one input that i could never have given him in a million years at home thats massively helped him out with his social skills... plus there is nowhere like the playground for learning bout how to interact with ya peergroup ;)

  • Quote from medusa


    I could say a lot more about it but my main point is that educational ideals dont always work in reality coz people are involved and people are complicated,screwy beings.And also education has to be about the childs needs,not the parents ideals coz kids are individuals too and some kids get a lot out of the system as it is now,even when the parents fundamentally disagree with it.



    Hmm, interesting points. I suppose my biggest problem with it, is that i dont think school was very benificial or a very nice experience for me to attend. I dont think i learnt much of anything i needed there. and in actual fact when i left the education system, i studied an awful lot in my own time, and i also went to alot of night courses and things

    i think the difference was that i was learning stuff that interested me, not stuff they had to tell me for me to get an exam result.

    i felt so degraded in year 11 after i sat my GCSES. they told me the last 11 years of my life culminated in these exams

    then they turned those 11 years into 8 grades on a piece of paper.

    I am shocked at this very nature of the education system, and further more, its a complete farce, GCSES mean next to nothing after you turn 18 because then its A-levels, then its degrees - the person is secondary, the grade you got dictates who you are (to them) i dont see the world like that, i dont want my children too.

    I totally appreciate what you are saying about these 'alternative' schools, i loved my academic studies and i would hope my children will get the same enjoyment out of reading and creative writing as i have. The last thing i want is to remove them from that.

    Perhaps when they are very little, in Junior school, but in secondary school, you are developing debating, behavioural and other key skills (grammer etc) that will aid you through your whole life.

    but there is no reason they can have assessed studies for part of the year (wether thats in the morning, or a portion of term) and work from home for some of the time.

    that way i can keep things interesting, actually take them to Longleat when they are learning about lions.

    Take them to meet some muslim friends, jewish friends, christain friends so they can see different religions, of course my children will also learn the pagan faith, buddisim, hindisim.

    i know i dont know everything about the world, but i am willing to learn with them, assist them and help them find the answers, which is what teachers should be doing.


    i couldnt bear to think of my children growing up as miserable as i was, wishing for something nice in the world because everything was on a negative.

    life is positive and beautiful and hard and punishable, i want my children to experience it all, not read it from a book.