Education...

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  • Hmmm I disagree... when you have a child and spend the best part of five years in that child's company... looking after... educating... nursing... protecting... catering for... socialising with... School is like the light of what can be at times a really dark tunnel... Don't get me wrong I LOVE my child deeply.. and most of the time really enjoy being a parent.. but if I am honest I enjoy being a parent more when I have more free time... I also think it is really important for kids to have a break from their parent(s) too... to develop a sense of independence... and to build their own social networks...

  • Quote

    Hmmm I disagree... when you have a child and spend the best part of five years in that child's company... looking after... educating... nursing... protecting... catering for... socialising with... School is like the light of what can be at times a really dark tunnel... Don't get me wrong I LOVE my child deeply.. and most of the time really enjoy being a parent.. but if I am honest I enjoy being a parent more when I have more free time... I also think it is really important for kids to have a break from their parent(s) too... to develop a sense of independence... and to build their own social networks...


    Word. This is something I don't think you can appreciate until you become a parent, but you have to be YOU first. And I don't believe being a parent means you suddenly pack your entire life in a box and become merely the meal-provider and dispenser of discipline. I did that...it sucked. Moreover, it was really stupid, and I lost a lot of myself doing it, which I'm now gaining back. You have to have another outlet other than your kids, as I was attempting to state (but I know how other people feel about that and I really didn't want to come under fire from people who think I should be spending all my life being a mother and nothing else). But screw it, I'll say it anyway: I need to be more than mum. Get a good teacher - and I've had some brilliant ones - and I can do that. He had a lovely time in his nursery, and I kept my sanity, which allowed me to give my best to my son when he came home as my batteries were recharged. I don't think it would have been the same otherwise. The "system" isn't all bad. If it is, then it's up to parents to create enough noise to change it, and I can sure make some noise. There's schools out there which aren't all crap, and there are some bloody good teachers out there. Just hunt 'em down.

  • Quote from Fibi



    utopias definatly not here, when i have a baby i have to give it up to a school system so some under achieving and often bullying adult, can teach it how boring the world is

    but its not just the teacher that is responsible for educating your child.. you can totally opt out of the educatino system and home educate alongside other parents who also home-ed...education otherwise can put you intouch with other families in your area.. we've got an excellent network here in frome and they all get together and do stuff together so kids to get to socialise and get input from other adults...

    Quote

    i will spend less time with my child in those years than this 'teacher'

    thats not right - nor will it ever be

    that's also not a true statement...


    Children are at school on average from 9am to 3pm everyday... When you actually do the maths that leaves the majority of their time at home with parents - our day starts here at 7am and charlie usually is on his way to bed between 8/8.30pm - on average he is at school for 6 hours a day.. walking to and from school for approx 1.5 each day... at home with me for about 5 hours a day and I got him all weekend and all holidays...


    Plenty of time for learning things from other people, learning things he can't learn at school etc...

  • but i am not suggesting we spend all our time with our child, i am saying we take an active role in education our children and those of our tribe

  • your right it is not just the teachers responsiblity, and i accept that, but the best part of the day (and when you remove meal times, bed times, bath times and time that child will want to spend alone, yes the teacher IS the person they will see more often) is spent with the most unsavoury of adults and is generally very boring for intelligent kids.

    there has to be a medium, it shouldnt be simple- homeschooled or schooled, there should be some way to have something in between

  • Quote from Fibi

    , i am saying we take an active role in education our children and those of our tribe

    which many of us manage to do whilst our children still go to school ;) s'all about balance at end of day :)

  • ....and I'm saying "dude, we already do that!" By just doing the little things, those things you say you remove like meal times, bed times, and bath times. ALL those times are important. It's honestly happening, but I think you're maybe underestimating the power of doing those little things we do. And that's true...I think sometimes "What the hell am I actually teaching him around here? I don't really do crap but tend plants and stuff." But yesterday, my son used the sign command I've been teaching the dog for the past week, and the dog sat down on command, and then he patted her gently and sweetly...that's a HUGE change from the past month of chaos round here. He knows to pick tomatoes, and he knows how to plant seedlings. He helps make tea, and does all sorts of stuff which, to be honest, I didn't think twice about because it's just plain everyday stuff. But that plain everyday stuff IS learning. School has its own benefits too - teaching things I can't, and that's cool. But we are taking an active role in education just by living life.


    Sorry you had bad experiences in school because honestly what this is sounding like is your time in school utterly sucked. Well, I can empathise, so did mine, and I've already sworn no child of mine would EVER go through that hell. I was pretty adverse to school as well a year or two ago, vehemently so, mostly from my own experiences. But I've had to concede that there are some really great teachers out there who adored my son and have done amazing work with him. If he pulls a dud, then I'll take him out and I'll find a better school for my son...but I'm not going to slate the whole thing. Like it or not, you need a degree these days to wash a floor. It's bs, but it's there. Until that changes, I'm not doing my son any favours by directly opposing it...but I can steer him in another direction and show him there is another way.

  • Quote from Fibi

    your right it is not just the teachers responsiblity, and i accept that, but the best part of the day (and when you remove meal times, bed times, bath times and time that child will want to spend alone, yes the teacher IS the person they will see more often) is spent with the most unsavoury of adults and is generally very boring for intelligent kids.

    there has to be a medium, it shouldnt be simple- homeschooled or schooled, there should be some way to have something in between


    sorry Fi you are generalising massively now... not all teachers are bad, boring and unsavoury. Charlie's had some amazing teachers over the years that have made my job as parent a hell of al ot easier...don't get me wrong he has had some terrible teachers aswell but thats when i have to step up to the plate and start gettin assertive ;) thats my job :)


    It's not the teachers that are at fault largely but the curriculum that they have to work within.. its as frustrating for them as it is for the kids in all honesty!

  • look you guys teach your kids however you like, i am not saying your doing it wrong or whatever

    i am say more time should be alloted in daily life, to adults actively taking a role in teaching their kids

    this giving the kids away to someone else to teach, simply breeds lack of reponsibility and that in turn means the kids arent being taught at home

  • Quote from Sarah

    sorry Fi you are generalising massively now... not all teachers are bad, boring and unsavoury. Charlie's had some amazing teachers over the years that have made my job as parent a hell of al ot easier...don't get me wrong he has had some terrible teachers aswell but thats when i have to step up to the plate and start gettin assertive ;) thats my job :)

    It's not the teachers that are at fault largely but the curriculum that they have to work within.. its as frustrating for them as it is for the kids in all honesty!



    why do i have to take that risk with my child??? beacause of where i live? because i cant afford to send it to private school? i wouldnt take a risk and give my child food that might be posioned, so why is that childs development given to a teacher who might well be poisoned???

    i think you guys are assuming that i mean we should all home school our kids and that is Not what i am saying

    i am saying parents should be encouraged to, and given time to, spend more time working with their children and education those children to the skills and levels that they work at

    rather than being in a class room with 40 kids and dull teachers

    i am amazed on a forum such as this that so many people have such faith in our education system, and dont want to see it changed even slightly

    that really makes me loose heart

  • Quote from Fibi

    but i am not suggesting we spend all our time with our child, i am saying we take an active role in education our children and those of our tribe


    I think you will find that ALL of the parent's who have already contributed to this thread realise that... and do that... already! ;)


    On a wider scale you are right... there are a LOT of parents who think that their children's schooling is all the education they need... Which is why the way we educate ALL children should change...


    I'm going to start psycho babbling now... I have come across a theorist (cognitive) who's work in my opinion is fooking amazing! Vygotsky viewed children as individuals... unlike may other psychologists.. and he suggested that the way we educate should be geared to be more suited to the individual and that teaching should not wholly be the teachers responsibility! Children of different abilities could help other children within the class... Montessori schools all work within a Vygotskian framework...

  • Quote from Fibi

    look you guys teach your kids however you like, i am not saying your doing it wrong or whatever

    i am say more time should be alloted in daily life, to adults actively taking a role in teaching their kids

    this giving the kids away to someone else to teach, simply breeds lack of reponsibility and that in turn means the kids arent being taught at home


    and what we are repeatedly saying is that there is space and time within the day to day life of parents to teach your kids aswell as send them to school... ;)


    i don't like the term "giving the child away" - that implies that by sending your child to school you are negating responsibility - which you back up by saying that this "breeds lack of responsibility" erm... plenty of mums on this thread here this morning saying actually NO it doesnt!!! and the last part of that sentence is also incorrect cos you got at least 4 other mums here this morning saying.. actually we teach at home too.. so infact they ARE being taught at home ALL the time they are at home ;)

  • i think many many many parents DO feel that by sending their kids to school they are giving them away to be taught

    i wasnt taught out of school, my mum worked 12 hrs a day, my dad closely followed suit

    i think that you guys are making the assumption that because YOU teach your kids things like survival, that is happening all over the place

    which is wrong we advocate responsiblity, and then wonder why parents arent responsible

  • oh and i should have thought it waqs clear from my comments that i don't have an awful lot of faith in the education system but i do my upmost to try and make a difference in my capacity as parent ;)

  • It might have to do with the fact that, to be honest, you're spinning some serious hate from who knows where. Not all teachers are evil, and the system itself ain't so bad - where the problem comes from is, like it or not, people without children keep wanting to change stuff. I don't know if you have kids or not, but it sounds to me that you don't.


    And I take some serious umbrage with the idea that "on this forum" we must all hate every aspect of society because Da Man must be Evil Incarnate, blah de blah. Come on...maybe it's just we found a way to make "the system" work, by getting involved in it. The nursery my son attended, I was in touch all the time, they never made a move without consulting me, it worked. The school he's in now, he's got one on one with a teacher who adores him. That's because I did get directly involved and make some serious insistence on my part.


    Don't get so down just because our experiences (actual EXPERIENCES) don't match up with your ideals. Because that's the main problem with the whole thing, y0. We the parents are talking...but you ain't hearing it. I honestly don't give a shit whether the whole "system" is good or bad, because it isn't my place to dictate to other people what they should or shouldn't be doing. I'll find what works for me, and damn the rest. And that's all anyone can do.


    And that's all I gotta say bout dat...cause I gotta get my son ready for nursery.

  • ok..just to set the scene..

    my kids went through the thames side system (clever ones diverted to grammar schools)

    my stepkids are going up through the standard state system (secondary and primary),

    One of my stepkids would be classed at moderate learning difficulties+ also with autism and aggression issues. (now 21yrs)

    I have been chair of governors at a state school for children with special needs for several years (MLD+ and a high percentage on the autistic spectrum)

    ..and I was educated in the private system (at a public school boarding at a prep school from 8 to13 and a public school from 13 - 18)

    I also have friends that have home educated their kids the whole way through to age 16.

    I also am a trustee of an educational trust whose members include 2 universities, a primary health care trust, and 2 other charities that are focused on bring change to the classroom by improving schools and teaching methods.

    I am also a member of my county's strategic schools forum, which decides strategy and funding for all state schools in the county.


    my views on this are

    whether private,state or home educated..any kids wide education is only as good as the teachers, school and family.

    Quote from muffy1956

    It is impossible to teach everyone in a classroom effectively if you have different skill sets in the same room.



    I disagree. I have seen pupils at a special school taught in year groups very effectively with ability ranging from a couple of entry level's to 6 gcse's. I do however agree the class size and capability of teachers is important. many mainstream teachers have no experience or talent for teaching children with learning difficulties or a class with too broad a need.

    Quote from fibi

    I think that if a parent is able, they should be allowed to partake a lot more in the day to day life of their children



    I wish! most parents are less involved in the education of their kids than ever. I could suggest that the reason why many schools are teaching more and more like skills, which many are, is due to the fact that parents often now totally rely on the school for education and these skills, which used to be taught by the family, parents now expect schools to deal with.

    but times ARE changing..schools I am involved with have joint pupil and parent activities/clubs after school and parent support groups. Schools are starting to be far more involved with the local community and there is more multi agency working. This is indeed so that schools can play a wider role in a wider education. However these changes are likely to take, in my opinion, 5 to 10 years to seen any major improvements.

    But the biggest problem schools are facing just now is the lack of parental involvement. parents not being in touch with their kids education, not turning up to parents evening..and more and more not caring if the kid is at school or not. And parents thinking the school is responsible for education in the widest sense so they don't need to teach life skills at home as was done in the past.


    There have been lots of comments in this tread about children with learning difficulties included in mainstream schools and it being hard work.

    I do not believe in inclusion in mainstream for the sake of inclusion. Having seem the professionals in some of our special schools and the parental support available.. I feel so sorry for the kids and parents trying to get through a secondary school with these issues. There is no reason why a child with learning difficulties can not have the confidence, accredited qualifications and happy school time that other kids have. but like I say..it is down to the quality of the teachers and school.

    more later perhaps...

  • Quote from Fibi

    i think many many many parents DO feel that by sending their kids to school they are giving them away to be taught

    well then they blatantly aren't gettin the point about the effort involved in education.. all schools actively seek to encourage parents in the process ;)


    Quote

    i think that you guys are making the assumption that because YOU teach your kids things like survival, that is happening all over the place

    Not at all... think i can speak for tekno and oya on that one n all ;)


  • And I think you are assuming that we don't educate our children at all... I MAKE time to help my daughter with her reading problems... I also take time out to teach her about the world around her.. How to cook... garden...


    Not one MOTHER had said they have faith in the education system.. in fact we have ALL said that we think it should change...


    Fibi you are NOT a parent... and do NOT have a realistic view of what being a parent actually encompasses... until then can you please try and bear this in mind... We know what being a parent means... you do not...

  • i think we are really lucky to have the education system in place in all honesty, to have structure to our kids lifes and to teach them stuff that i know personally i would have struggled to do.


    i think what you are actually questioning is the integrity of a lot of parents and how they judge what they are responsable for.


    my kids will both be educated within the system thats in place now and i dont advocate any responsability, i am responsable and very confident that i am doing whats right for my kids.


  • Ahhh the joys of cut and paste! So I don't have to retype this...


    On a wider scale you are right... there are a LOT of parents who think that their children's schooling is all the education they need... Which is why the way we educate ALL children should change...


    I'm going to start psycho babbling now... I have come across a theorist (cognitive) who's work in my opinion is fooking amazing! Vygotsky viewed children as individuals... unlike may other psychologists.. and he suggested that the way we educate should be geared to be more suited to the individual and that teaching should not wholly be the teachers responsibility! Children of different abilities could help other children within the class... Montessori schools all work within a Vygotskian framework...

  • Quote from tekno



    Fibi you are NOT a parent... and do NOT have a realistic view of what being a parent actually encompasses... until then can you please try and bear this in mind... We know what being a parent means... you do not...



    so now i am being told my opinion is not valid because i would like to research this sort of stuff BEFORE i drop a sprog? i dont think thats very fair

    the reason i posted this on this forum, is because i have an awful lot of respect for the parents here.

    i stopped going to PsyTrance parties and being involved with that scene, because i was watching parents snort Ketamine infront of their 3 years olds. because i was seeing 5 year old kids carted round free parties so their parents could get mashed

    i want the very best for my children, i want them to feel happy and positive about life, that they can do anything they want to do, study anything they want to study.

    i came to this forum because i dont want to spend time with, condone or be around parents who i think neglect and abuse their children

    i am sorry i have wasted your time asking questions about education, because clearly i dont give a shit about my children until they are born.




  • The only advice I can give you is to remember that you.. the parent.. are the primary educator and role model.

    school has a part to play.. and you can become very involved as a parent with school when the time comes...but see it as a complimentary part of your childs education..not the mainstay.

  • Quote from Fibi

    why do i have to take that risk with my child??? beacause of where i live? because i cant afford to send it to private school? i wouldnt take a risk and give my child food that might be posioned, so why is that childs development given to a teacher who might well be poisoned???


    I've been bullied and abused by teachers. I've also had teachers who've inspired me to be myself and carry on and do what I love. Surely you could say why take that risk of sending your child to the outside world, as theres rapists and murderers and all sorts out there... but by leaving in fear of bad people you're also preventing the chance of meeting good people?

  • if it were a complimentary part of their education, it would not be the greatest part of the day.

    how about a world where one parent was asked to assist the child in study for a few hours of the school day? this could be on an avaliabilty basis, so all the mums on the dole who are at home all day, could take the child home for study in the early afternoon, had progress mointored by the same measures they are at the moment, and you would find the teachers had more time to spend with the children during that time

  • Quote from Naeni

    I've been bullied and abused by teachers. I've also had teachers who've inspired me to be myself and carry on and do what I love. Surely you could say why take that risk of sending your child to the outside world, as theres rapists and murderers and all sorts out there... but by leaving in fear of bad people you're also preventing the chance of meeting good people?



    i dont live in fear of bad people, i am not talking about exploration and journeying into the world. i am talking about sending your child off day after day, to be taught by someone with questionable motives and ideals, before that child has developed the capacity to see the difference.

    Yes i will protect my child in varying degress for its whole life, but its my job to give it the best start, so that it can deal with problems in life as they come.

  • Quote from Fibi

    if it were a complimentary part of their education, it would not be the greatest part of the day.

    how about a world where one parent was asked to assist the child in study for a few hours of the school day? this could be on an avaliabilty basis, so all the mums on the dole who are at home all day, could take the child home for study in the early afternoon, had progress mointored by the same measures they are at the moment, and you would find the teachers had more time to spend with the children during that time




    I think this is the point other have made.. many parents..don't forget fathers as well !!!!..help out in schools during school hours.. gawd our primary even has a rota for the parental support.

    why are you assuming this is not the case


    (it costs a fortune CRB checking the parents but the benefit is great)

  • i suppose because it was never the case for me, my mum wouldnt even come to award ceremonies or sports days or shows done by the school. Neither did most of the other mums, regardless of the fact they didnt work, there was no hint of involvment from the parents at my schools, any of them (and i went to quite a few)

    i think we should be frowning on people who DONT make time to be apart of their kids education, not the other way round

  • Quote from Fibi

    so now i am being told my opinion is not valid because i would like to research this sort of stuff BEFORE i drop a sprog? i dont think thats very fair

    the reason i posted this on this forum, is because i have an awful lot of respect for the parents here.

    i stopped going to PsyTrance parties and being involved with that scene, because i was watching parents snort Ketamine infront of their 3 years olds. because i was seeing 5 year old kids carted round free parties so their parents could get mashed


    Good on you! :thumbup: I also hate seeing parents off their heads when they have kids to look after...

    Quote from fibi

    i want the very best for my children, i want them to feel happy and positive about life, that they can do anything they want to do, study anything they want to study.

    i came to this forum because i dont want to spend time with, condone or be around parents who i think neglect and abuse their children

    i am sorry i have wasted your time asking questions about education, because clearly i dont give a shit about my children until they are born.


    Fibi... I said what I said in response to comments that you made about teachers seeing kids more than the parent... Which is total bull... When you are a parent you will realise this! I have also NOT said that you should not care about how children are educated... We should ALL give a shit about that... If you read my posts properly (esp post #50) you will see that I (and probably the other parents who have contributed) agree that we need to change the way ALL children are educated!


    Also I would like to echo what Naeni has already said.. I had many many more *good* teachers than bad... And you also seem to be forgetting that teachers are also under fook loads of pressure... and are largely undervalued in society.... I am friend with a woman who teaches in a secondary school... and i have watched her struggle with all of the paperwork that she does on top of planning classes... within a ridculous cirruclum (she hates it too).. and marking work... etc etc

  • Also i am hearing a very objective view point from many mother on here, which seems to be fuelled by some primal need to convince the world that your doing the best for your children and how could i possible know because i'm not a mother (which i think is quite ridiculous) and then i am hearing from Yoursink who has worked with school, so i would say from a less objective view point, that more and more parents are less and less involved with their childrens education!

    i would like to make it clear that i have utter respect for all the mothers on here and i would never judge anyone on how they bring up their kiddies, i choose what environment i would like my children brought up in and i hope for everyone else to do the same

    i am simply questioning education, not the parental achievements of the people on this forum! i would ask you to do the same for me, thank you

  • Quote from Fibi

    i suppose because it was never the case for me, my mum wouldnt even come to award ceremonies or sports days or shows done by the school. Neither did most of the other mums, regardless of the fact they didnt work, there was no hint of involvment from the parents at my schools, any of them (and i went to quite a few)

    i think we should be frowning on people who DONT make time to be apart of their kids education, not the other way round



    oh they do! and many strategies are in place to try and re-engage parents.

    your experience, or the fact you realise your parents mistake.. will actually help you engage with school.. :clap: