Veggie versus meat eating-go on-debate

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  • Quote from Atomik

    What do you think the odds are of the entire planet - or even a large percentage of it - going veggie overnight?



    ummm no.

  • Quote from Greenthing

    No its not a reason your right, but money is a good reason for the farmers if they cant sell cattle because no one is eating meat, how else will farming survive not by growing nothing but veg alone.


    There are many other things to grow apart from veggies, hemp is one that springs to mind as it has so many uses.

  • Quote from Atomik

    And also, what would happen if aliens turned up, stole all our plants, and we'd got rid of all the cows? :eek:


    Fuck who knows, as i dont know anything about aliens like are they meat eaters or veg eaters, one thing I do know is if they stole my plants they would be to fucking stoned to be botherd about anything.

    Quote


    How about restricting the discussion to the rational rather than the ridiculous? What do you think the odds are of the entire planet - or even a large percentage of it - going veggie overnight?


    Whats so ridiculous about aliens?
    And i dont recall saying anything about everyone going veggie overnight.
    And i thought we were allowed freedom of speech on here as in you can talk about anything you want within reason.

  • Quote from PlutoPete

    There are many other things to grow apart from veggies, hemp is one that springs to mind as it has so many uses.


    Agreed ;)

  • Quote from Windfall

    Maybe not, but calves from here are shipped to other countries that do put them in veal crates. :(



    another reason to buy local produce then

  • Quote from dragonz

    another reason to buy local produce then



    It's not a question of buying local produce it's because of the milk industry..............the calves would still be there even if EVERYONE bought local produce. As I said in my earlier post............there are so many of them because the cows have to be made pregnant in order to produce milk. :(

  • Quote from Naeni

    I'm sick of people telling me I look so thin and wasting away from being a veggie, when in fact i'm larger than I was when I ate meat!


    see i get the same thing from some veggies ... i used to be a veggie myself many moons back for about 4 years of my life, so i know how my body was when i was a veggie, how it reacted, etc.


    now i choose to eat meat, and friends that are veggies always have comments to make about how i'd lose weight if i were veggie, wouldn't be in pain if i were veggie, would be able to sleep properly if i were veggie, basically insert any ailment that i might moan about and well supposedly it'd be instantly cured if i stopped eating meat and went all veggie.


    though, if that's the case, then why'd i have the same issues when i was a veggie for 4 years, and i did like veggies then, so wasn't that unhealthy of a veggie.


    i respect people's decisions to be a vegetarian or a vegan, people that force this lifestyle on their children is a whole other topic for me entirely; but i respect people who themselves choose to become a vegetarian or a vegan or a rootitarian or a fruititarian even. that's their choice.


    recently i had a vegan stay with us, i was mindful of her needs and when i made mashed potatoes mashed them first and put some aside for her before i put in milk and butter to make them creamier. i cooked food for her and food for us (which contained meat). i was worried cooking meat might open up a whole debate then, but it didn't. she respected our choice, and we (Optimus and I) respected hers.


    it's a personal choice and a matter of respect.


    if vegetarians and vegans want the respect from people to not be teased about not eating meat (something i would never do in the first place myself) then they should also show the same respect to someone who does choose to eat meat, and not try to force their beliefs on other people either.


    if you're going to a social gathering with a mixed bunch of people, then you need to be prepared that some people are going to have different views than you. as a veggie, you can't expect that meat eaters just don't eat meat while at that gathering or don't cook it. there are some people out there, like my hubby, who weren't raised to enjoy vegetables .. (it's something i'm slowly working on to improve his diet, to get him to eat some) so are people like this just supposed to 'stay home, or starve' because eating meat is going to bother those that don't?


    i hear/read a lot about various people saying 'respect my choices' but at the same time it seems those that shout this the loudest don't really respect someone to make an opposite choice.


    i've lived in mixed food environments before, where i was a veggie but other people around me ate meat, and when i ate meat but others were veggies. for some reason we all got along, and none of us had issues with the other people, as we all respected each other's choices.



    also, i fully agree with Dragonz that I feel plants have just as much sense of being as animals do, it's just not something we are in tune with. and ironically that makes me remember a bumper sticker i used to have on my car when i was a veggie that said "i'm a vegetarian not because i hate meat, but because i hate plants". ;)

  • Quote from Greenthing

    I agree some people are born unhealthy anhoo no matter what they eat.
    The peeps i mention in my other post are the only vegans i have ever met so they were probably not a good example, I dont know to be truthfull.



    Just to add to this-I am vegan and I am also in my third trimester of pregnancy. Now from being around other pregnant women I know that I am amongst the healthiest. All my bloods are great, I haven't got the cold/flu once during this pregnancy and I have put on weight and have energy to do things (even though having a big bump makes a lot of things rather difficult!). The child inside me is also growing well, and in fact is growing a wee bit more than he should be for the dates. Since pregnancy is a time that you need the optimum nutrition I can confidently say that being vegan is definately NOT unhealthy, otherwise all the health care staff (who incidently support my diet completely as they see how good it is) would be telling me I was putting my child at risk.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May all beings have happiness and create the causes of happiness.
    May they all be free from suffering and from creating the causes of suffering.
    [/FONT]

  • Quote from uma

    Just to add to this-I am vegan and I am also in my third trimester of pregnancy. Now from being around other pregnant women I know that I am amongst the healthiest. All my bloods are great, I haven't got the cold/flu once during this pregnancy and I have put on weight and have energy to do things (even though having a big bump makes a lot of things rather difficult!). The child inside me is also growing well, and in fact is growing a wee bit more than he should be for the dates. Since pregnancy is a time that you need the optimum nutrition I can confidently say that being vegan is definately NOT unhealthy, otherwise all the health care staff (who incidently support my diet completely as they see how good it is) would be telling me I was putting my child at risk.


    Yup, I'm vegetarian and my baby's on the large side too, and I have had perfect bloods, BP and everything else throughout the whole of my pregnancy. My doctor says I am amazingly fit and well :D and what's more, he says he has noticed that veggie mummies tend to be a lot healthier than meat-eating mummies... I expect because veggie mums think about nutrition more carefully when they are pregnant than a lot of meat-eaters.

  • I think the thing about a vegetarian diet is the high amount of fat and cholesterol that's in milk, cheese, eggs etc, a vegan diet is free from these artery clogging ingredients. A meat eater of course is eating even more animal fats.
    People who consume animal products have a diet high in cholesterol.

    p.s. Phoenix Indigo that was a lovely thing you did for your friend. :)

  • Quote

    i respect people's decisions to be a vegetarian or a vegan, people that force this lifestyle on their children is a whole other topic for me entirely; but i respect people who themselves choose to become a vegetarian or a vegan or a rootitarian or a fruititarian even. that's their choice.


    Meat eaters shove their lifestyle on their childen to though. Bringing up a child with the same diet as you is just part of bringing up a child. It isn't forceing your beliefs on your children anymore then a meateater cooking their child chicken for dinner is.

  • Quote from Kaiya

    Meat eaters shove their lifestyle on their childen to though. Bringing up a child with the same diet as you is just part of bringing up a child. It isn't forceing your beliefs on your children anymore then a meateater cooking their child chicken for dinner is.


    this is going to get onto a different topic now really, but i think there is a difference between cooking your child what you eat, and forcing what you eat on your child.


    if you're a veggie/vegan obviously you'd cook for your family veggie/vegan foods ... if you are a meat eater, obviously you'd cook for your family meat foods.


    however, if you have a child that is old enough to start making their own choices, and that child wants to eat differently than you, but you deny them that right or force them to eat like you instead ... that is a different kettle of fish (so to speak).


    i'd class it in the same regards as someone who is religious brainwashing their child into believing that only they have the right answers and all others are wrong.


    oh, and yes .. it would be just as wrong for a meateater to cook their child chicken for dinner, if that child had told their parents that they didn't want to each chicken but rather eat broccolli and rice. ;)
    same as the parent who feeds their child broccolli and rice it would be wrong to them to cook that for their child for dinner, if the child has said i'd like to each chicken for dinner.

  • Quote from Windfall


    People who consume animal products have a diet high in cholesterol.


    Can have a diet high in cholesterol... I had mine checked out and it is 3.6...:D

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    however, if you have a child that is old enough to start making their own choices, and that child wants to eat differently than you, but you deny them that right or force them to eat like you instead ... that is a different kettle of fish (so to speak).


    I agree with you mostly then I think, I think generally once a child is old enough to make a decision for themselves they should be allowed to make that decision. However if the child is growing up in a veggie/vegan household then they should respect their parents choices and house and leave their meat away from the house. I would never expect my child to be veggie if they wanted to eat meat, but if my house was a meat free house then i think it is fair enough to expect them only to eat meat out of my house :)

  • Quote from Kaiya

    I agree with you mostly then I think, I think generally once a child is old enough to make a decision for themselves they should be allowed to make that decision. However if the child is growing up in a veggie/vegan household then they should respect their parents choices and house and leave their meat away from the house. I would never expect my child to be veggie if they wanted to eat meat, but if my house was a meat free house then i think it is fair enough to expect them only to eat meat out of my house :)


    Definitely, I would be more than happy for our kids to experiment with eating meat at friend's houses, and if they choose to have school dinners etc... but ours is a meat-free house and they have to respect that for as long as they live at home with us.

  • Quote from Kaiya

    I agree with you mostly then I think, I think generally once a child is old enough to make a decision for themselves they should be allowed to make that decision. However if the child is growing up in a veggie/vegan household then they should respect their parents choices and house and leave their meat away from the house. I would never expect my child to be veggie if they wanted to eat meat, but if my house was a meat free house then i think it is fair enough to expect them only to eat meat out of my house :)


    see by that token though, then if you were a parent that ate meat couldn't you say to your child 'you have to respect that we eat meat in this house, if you want to not eat meat then you'd have to do it outside the house' ... i know that's rather extreme, as obviously most houses where meat is eaten they do eat veg as well, but i'm trying to make a point.


    when i was a veggie, i lived for part of the time with my parents. the family ate meat. my mom though, would respect my choices and when she made spaghetti she'd always do some sauce for me without meat. by your 'meat-free' house statement, if you took that same application for meat eaters, then she would never have done that. she would have told me to go and make my own food, or eat elsewhere.


    and well if it's a 'meat-free' house but the child is old enough to make choices but not old enough to cook or be by themselves out in the big world to go get food, then how is that being fair to the child, and not still forcing the concepts on them? i'm not talking just about someone who is a teenager or older, but what if you had a child and after being at school with their friends and seeing them eat meat they came home (at a young age of 6 or 7) and said they wanted to try some meat themselves. how could you respect that choice of theirs to try it but maintain the 'meat-free' home. you can't exactly tell a young child to go find their meat elsewhere.


    i understand it would be something hard to do, but then again i've known many veggies and vegans who would regularly cook chicken and rice for their cats, as it was better for their diets than eating store-bought biscuits all the time.

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    see by that token though, then if you were a parent that ate meat couldn't you say to your child 'you have to respect that we eat meat in this house, if you want to not eat meat then you'd have to do it outside the house' ... i know that's rather extreme, as obviously most houses where meat is eaten they do eat veg as well, but i'm trying to make a point.


    Well, no... cos if you eat meat you're not doing it because you believe it is ethically wrong not to.

  • Quote from princesstigermouse

    Well, no... cos if you eat meat you're not doing it because you believe it is ethically wrong not to.


    well ... that would depend really. as well obviously if people stopped eating meat altogether it would mean fewer jobs for certain farmers, and create lots of losses in jobs in certain industries. so i guess it depends on one's interpretations of what are 'ethical' reasons and what aren't.

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    well ... that would depend really. as well obviously if people stopped eating meat altogether it would mean fewer jobs for certain farmers, and create lots of losses in jobs in certain industries. so i guess it depends on one's interpretations of what are 'ethical' reasons and what aren't.


    I have never met anyone who ate meat because they believed it was ethically wrong not to eat meat. I am sure there are one or two out there (there's going to be at least a few people who believe in *anything* after all) but not many!

  • Quote from princesstigermouse

    I have never met anyone who ate meat because they believed it was ethically wrong not to eat meat. I am sure there are one or two out there (there's going to be at least a few people who believe in *anything* after all) but not many!


    bringing 'ethics' into it however, doesn't really make sense to me. i know what you are trying to say, but again that seems like you're insinuating that anyone who eats meat is 'ethically wrong'.


    when in fact, it's not down to ethics, but to a lifestyle choice for many people. this goes for both veggies and meat-eaters. when i became a veggie, it had nothing to do with ethics or treatment of animals. it was because i was on a food plan at Uni and all the meat they offered was vile. :vomit: so i started eating more veggies and non-meat foods and ended up choosing it as a lifestyle. though i know myself i used to think that other people should adopt that lifestyle and the more i heard people say 'why don't you just have a burger' made me get more militant about my beliefs and i'd flood my car with stickers like "friends don't let friends eat meat", etc.


    if you choose to not eat meat because you value the life of an animal as sacred, i don't see that as ethics, but still a lifestyle choice. if i were to have you and your family into my home for a meal, i'd make sure everything i served you had never been 'tainted' by meat. i would not however refrain from eating meat while you were here.


    by creating 'meat-free' homes, i can understand the concept; but i think it creates a 'better than thou' atmosphere if the person/people living in one wants to associate with those that don't share the same beliefs as them. if your child has friends growing up who eat meat and their family eat meat, and they aren't very into veggies, will you just not ever have them into your home for a meal? if your child wants a friend to stay over, but the friend eats meat and doesn't like veggies, how would you handle that situation?


    see that's where i think the whole vegetarian/vegan lifestyle choice starts to get into being as dangerous as the territory of the family i knew growing up who only let their kids hang out with kids who were Christians or from Christian families ... as it is leading to sheltered behaviour.


    and well if we are going along the lines of respect for all peoples choices and reasons for making those choices your response to my statement about other 'ethical' reasons would indicate to me that you have no respect for those choices ... but yet i'm to have respect for you and your choices, and do in fact definitely respect your choices, but again they are the choices you have made for you. i should be well within my right to make my own choices for me, and to look out for the people that i care about that share similar beliefs, without receiving derisive comments about that choice.

  • Quote from tekno

    Can have a diet high in cholesterol... I had mine checked out and it is 3.6...:D



    Your right I should have said 'can' but you are one of the lucky ones. Why is there so much heart disease and obesity in the world today?.........you don't see many obese vegans. I'm certainly not obese as my profile picture shows.
    Plus, it's a medical fact that meat is a major factor in people developing colon cancer.
    Also, why is there a campaign ad saying 'Eat five portions a day' referring to fruit and vegetables? I don't see them advocating we eat 'five pieces of meat' a day! :D

    That's great that your cholesterol is so low...........your system must have to work very hard to get it that low considering you eat animal products. Mine is 3.8 and I eat a lot of food that if it was not vegan would make my cholesterol sore. Stuff like chips, vegan lasagna, vegan pizza, vegan cakes and chocolate. I can eat as much as I like (and frequently do:D )and still don't put on weight.

    Another factor to consider is the amount of saturated fat in animal products. Obviously if you eat animals and their products you are consuming saturated fat and cholesterol from their bodies to add to that which you already have.

    I hope your cholesterol continues to remain low :)

  • I actually put on weight when I went vegan...and I know plenty of vegans who experienced the same thing. In fact, I know a man whos been vegan for 10 years who is obese.

    A vegan diet is not always healthier. I dont think anyone should go vegan without really thinking about what they are doing and very carefully and gradually planning their diet.

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    see that's where i think the whole vegetarian/vegan lifestyle choice starts to get into being as dangerous as the territory of the family i knew growing up who only let their kids hang out with kids who were Christians or from Christian families ... as it is leading to sheltered behaviour.


    ...no one is saying that they will only let their kids hang out with veggies, are they? Kids go to school, they make friends with all kinds of people - they go to friends' houses, their frinds come over to their house... they come into contact with all kinds of people. I just don't understand where you're coming from, here?


    If my kids invited their friends over, they would not be given meat. Like if I were a Jew, I would not be cooking pork chops just because my kid's friend likes them, you know? I really don't understand why that's unreasonable or damaging to anyone. Quite the opposite - the exact thing I am saying is that what other people choose is fine, as long as they respect what I have chosen.


    As a parent, it's your job to choose how your kids will be nourished. Vegetarianism *is* an ethical issue for me and it's just silly for me to talk about is as though it isn't. But I also very strongly believe it's the healthiest diet for my kids, and that is me and Mr's choice - and our choice alone - with regards to what is good for our children.


    And I would never prevent my kids making their own choices. Ever. About anything. And that's why I meantioned things like school dinners - they want to try out meat? Then that's a fantastic opportunity to do so. But I'm not going to serve it up to them because I believe it's wrong, for one thing, and also because I believe that it's not the best food for *my* children - what other parents choose is no concern of mine.


    I disagree that by "bringing ethics into it" that creates some kind of holier-than-thou attitude. We will bring our kids up to make informed and responsible choices, and to respect other people. It's like saying that by not wanting them to play violent video games I'm telling my kids that their friends who do play them are in some way inferior... which is nonsense, really. As a parent, it's my job to do what I believe to be best for my kids.


    This is like the thing I said about home birth... by choosing to have a home birth so many women seem to believe I am in some way looking down on them for having a hospital birth... of course I'm not! I am choosing what I believe to be best for me and my baby, it has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else.


    So yeah... I think I have explained that pretty exhaustively :)

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    and well if we are going along the lines of respect for all peoples choices and reasons for making those choices your response to my statement about other 'ethical' reasons would indicate to me that you have no respect for those choices ... but yet i'm to have respect for you and your choices, and do in fact definitely respect your choices, but again they are the choices you have made for you. i should be well within my right to make my own choices for me, and to look out for the people that i care about that share similar beliefs, without receiving derisive comments about that choice.


    Honey, I really don't get that... what you said was that saying "no meat in my house" was the same as saying "you have to eat meat in my house"... and I said no it isn't, because for most veggies, they are making a conscious ethical choice. That's all. I said that I don't think many meat-eaters choose to eat meat because they believe that not doing so would be morally wrong. There is no issue of whether or not I respect you or your choices there, surely?


    You know for a fact that I respect you and your beliefs.

  • Quote from princesstigermouse


    You know for a fact that I respect you and your beliefs.


    :angel: no, i know hun that you respect our beliefs, just like you should know i respect yours, hunny :angel:



    i'm not very clear at stating things sometimes myself and it comes out a bit jumbled in my head and in what i'm trying to say. i don't think you, personally don't respect my beliefs, but i do think there are many out there that do just see the whole topic as being very black and white with no grey areas.


    i was trying to point out some of the grey areas but well maybe didn't do a great job at it. :p :o

  • Quote from Paul

    The thing is, we (in the modern west) do not need meat to live, all arguments to the contrary regarding various deficiencies have been thrashed out time and time again. Therefore the only reason that most people eat meat is to satisfy their taste buds - and eating animals just because they taste nice seems pretty selfish to me.


    My thoughts exactly.


    I was a sickly kid, teen and adult. I then went vegetarian at 23.
    Last year I dicided to go vegan which was surprisingly easy.
    Since changing my dietry choices(I didn't give up anything) I've never been so healthy and full of energy.
    If you want to eat dead decaying flesh that's up to you.
    But please don't hide behind the Organic freerange humanly reared crap.
    That's all marketing bullshit.


    It makes no difference if your "happy meat" lived outside and basked in the sunshine, then at night it may be brought inside read a book and tucked in with a blanket.
    When it's murdered they all go the same way.
    Google EATHLINGS and make your own mind up.

  • Now this one really pisses me off

    "I think that just because a vegetable cant move, or comunicate doesnt mean that it feels less and therefore it is no worse to kill and animal and eat it than to kill a vegetable and eat it."

    Because iv never seen a carrot shit itself as its had its neck slit as it hangs there upside down jerking in reaction to the fear and pain it feels.

    As for lions, thats just stupid, they need meat to live, we dont. A lion cannot live without meat its stomach is ment to digest it and take the goodness it needs from the meat. We humans are capable of living without meat, we will not die without it. We also have the knowledge to make choices where a lion would have great difficulty digging up a potato.

    Im a vegan, i shouldnt have to defend my right to be or explain to anyone else why im vegan but then stupid comments about lions going veggie and silently screaming cabbages really do my head in.

    I dont ask you why you eat meat, dont you ask me why i choose not to, simple as that. But seeing as were on the subject i went veggie at the age of 14 following a biology lesson telling us how animals were farmed, that put me off as i didnt want their cruely treated, steroid and anti biotic contaminated meat in my body. Im now vegan and dam proud to be cause i know im doing whats best for my health, the planet and im not causing any harm to animals or supporting the industry that does treat them so cruely by purchasing their products.

    Thats all i have to say on that one.

  • Quote from Kaiya

    Meat eaters shove their lifestyle on their childen to though. Bringing up a child with the same diet as you is just part of bringing up a child. It isn't forceing your beliefs on your children anymore then a meateater cooking their child chicken for dinner is.



    I was bought up a meat eater by my parents, i resent them for doing that. I have bought my children up as veggie giving them the option of eating meat once id explained the reasons behind my deicisons. One rule in my home though is that no one brings dead animals in the house. If my son decides to eat meat he eats it out which he did for a while but has not gone back to being veggie - i let him try it (not at home of course) oh and if we were eating out and i was paying then i wouldnt buy him a meat meal as i dont believe in giving my money to support such a cruel industry. But if he wants to eat it at his friends he can.

    Thankfully he has gone back to being veggie. My daughter is strict veggie though and wont let him forget he once tried meat a few times lol.

  • Quote from phoenix_indigo

    :angel: no, i know hun that you respect our beliefs, just like you should know i respect yours, hunny :angel:



    i'm not very clear at stating things sometimes myself and it comes out a bit jumbled in my head and in what i'm trying to say. i don't think you, personally don't respect my beliefs, but i do think there are many out there that do just see the whole topic as being very black and white with no grey areas.


    I agree - there are always people who see things in terms of absolute black/white vs good/bad and that just makes having a dialogue nearly impossible.


    :hug: mwah xxx