Veggie versus meat eating-go on-debate

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  • Quote from dragonz

    can you remember where you read about that, sounds like an interesting study


    http://www.hindu.com/seta/2004…ries/2004042200331600.htm

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    Biologists at the University of Turin and the Max Planck Institute in Jena were yesterday reported to have found evidence that plants sensed — and reacted to — the presence of hungry, leaf-chomping grubs. Their response was to emit an odour similar to lavender. This alerted other plants to the presence of a predator.


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    Between 1960 and 1970, Burdon-Sanderson conducted many experiments on the Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula). The first experiment, and possibly the most remarkably revealing of all, was to attach electrodes to the surface of the trap lobes in the hope of recording electrical activity. He found that each time a trigger hair was touched it fired off a wave of electrical activity almost identical to the nerve impulses, or action potentials, produced by animal neurons. This experiment was carried out on the Sundew and Sensitive plant - with similar conclusions!


    The experiments carried out by Cleve Backster in 1966 where he connected a plant to a polygraph and recorded responses when he thought about burning the leaves have been proven to be fatally flawed and Backster has been discredited by academics.

  • Quote from dragonz

    can you remember where you read about that, sounds like an interesting study


    ditto.


    and i find personally i lump plants and animals seporately as, as far as i know, plants don't have pain receptors..........

  • Cheers Pete, I've been racking my brain all day trying to remember where I found that study :thumbup:

    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.


    Jiddu Krishnamurti

  • Quote from Firinne

    Some scientists did a study on that a few years back and found that plants react not only to being eaten/chopped but to someone entering the room with the intention of doing so ... so, I'm very much of the opinion that they do feel just as deeply as animals and that we're just not aware of it because they don't communicate on a level we can understand.

    That's an argument for not eating plants... not an argument for eating meat. ;)


    The point is though, no dietry choice represents the peak of ethical perfection. Vegetarianism/veganism simply represent an attempt to reduce the amount of suffering we support through our diet. It's impossible to live without causing some suffering along the way - but minimising that suffering is still a worthy goal.

  • Quote from Skully

    Atomik those were my personal views and experiences. You might have found someone brow beating you about your choice to eat meat did change your mind but I have never found it to work. I feel a person will only change if they want to change.


    As to whether me stopping someone from torturing a cat could be claimed to be me "shove your opinions in their face".. well if thats how you want to see it thats up to you. Yes I would step in and stop them. If by doing that and not trying to sway peoples opinion off eating meat by telling them over and over that by eating meat they are cruel and heartless, you think I'm a hypocrite... well you are entitled to your opinion. I just prefer a different way to get my message across and find it far more successful.


    Each to their own path.

    I swear I dunno what it is about internet forums that makes people so confrontational and/or defensive. I wasn't attacking you/your experiences/your beliefs, nor calling you a hypocrite. I was pondering some of the questions that your post raised in my mind.

  • Isn't the problem here just that there are some people, whatever their diet, are arseholes?
    Personally I never experienced any hassle from veggies when I ate meat, but experience plenty from omnivores now I don't, often being treated as if I'm just being awkward, or given the whole 'it's natural' diatribe.
    Of course there will always be people who want to shove their opinions down other people's throats, but that's not necessarily the same thing as wanting to educate people.
    For example, if someone claimed "I'd be really ill if I didn't eat meat", why shouldn't someone who knows better be able to correct them? If that's viewed as shoving views down people's throats, then that would mean we could never correct people who made incorrect statements about anything.

  • Quote from tekno


    I do not have a go at vegans for helping cause more damage to our world by the mass production of soya...



    Actually this mass production of soya that you mention is for cattle. The clearing of rainforrests? For cattle also..... If everyone did go vegan (and I'm not saying everyone should, I know for a fact that a lot of people for health reasons can't be vegan) then we would have more than enough resources to feed everyone in the world, and also not ruin our environment or rainforrests... Just wanted to point this out, as being a vegan its an argument that people tend to put to me and its one that is completely false.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May all beings have happiness and create the causes of happiness.
    May they all be free from suffering and from creating the causes of suffering.
    [/FONT]

  • Hello all,
    I am a meat eater but i dont eat huge amounts, I also eat veg but i dont like veg all that much.
    I know some of you's will not like what you are about to read.
    I used to be a poacher and have killed gutted and skinned a wide variety of animals for the pot and I dont see any wrong in what I have done.
    Also I would like to say that i belive if you are going to kill something it must be done in a quick and humanely way as I do not believe any living thing should suffer any more than necessary I also believe all animals should be free range its cruel to keep them in cages and that includes pets.
    Oh and by the way I have friends who are veggi and I would not take the piss out of them or any other veggi for that matter because I believe that each and every one of us are entitled to our own beliefs.
    Please dont hate me for my way of life.

  • Quote from uma

    Actually this mass production of soya that you mention is for cattle. The clearing of rainforrests? For cattle also..... If everyone did go vegan (and I'm not saying everyone should, I know for a fact that a lot of people for health reasons can't be vegan) then we would have more than enough resources to feed everyone in the world, and also not ruin our environment or rainforrests... Just wanted to point this out, as being a vegan its an argument that people tend to put to me and its one that is completely false.


    Can you please provide some evidence that the sole purpose of mass production of soya is too feed cattle...:D I am not disbelieving what you are saying... But to my mind it cannot be just solely for that purpose... especially when you consider the rise of the amount of people that eat soya products. I also want to make it clear that I am not veggie/vegan bashing... but rather pointing out (like Atomik has) that most of the food we consume is not produced ethically... If the example i used is incorrect I apologise... But I would like to see the evidence that I am wrong first... ;)

  • Quote from tekno

    Can you please provide some evidence that the sole purpose of mass production of soya is too feed cattle...:D I am not disbelieving what you are saying... But to my mind it cannot be just solely for that purpose... especially when you consider the rise of the amount of people that eat soya products. I also want to make it clear that I am not veggie/vegan bashing... but rather pointing out (like Atomik has) that most of the food we consume is not produced ethically... If the example i used is incorrect I apologise... But I would like to see the evidence that I am wrong first... ;)

    I can personally be arsed digging up sources for you, but Uma is correct. There simply aren't enough veggies in the world to make a dramatic impact on soya production (especially considering what a small part of the veggie diet it represents... I hardly eat any of the stuff). But considering it's a staple for cattle feed and it takes an awful lot to feed a cow.....


  • The animals that you killed had lived a natural life and I see nothing wrong in that, I also don't see poaching as a crime if it's done for your own pot. It's the unatural and cruel farming methods that I object to.

  • [INDENT]

    Quote from tekno

    Which is really understandable... I eat meat and I still feel sick when I look at a dead battery chicken... or any meat that I know has been mass produced... :vomit:

    I think that if more veggies/vegans realised that there are many ethical omnivores out there then debates such as this would cease to happen... and we could all focus our attention to challenging the way meat is produced....



    I agree that there really needs to be some changes in the way meat is produced. Isn't there a saying that goes something along the lines of "If all abitoirs had glass walls the whole world would be vegetarian." Due to city life, plastic packaging and clean neat chunks of meat, people seem to becoming less and less connected to what their food really is and where its really come from. Why should they care about whether or not they buy free-range organic meat, or how those animals are treated when they dont even associate the meat on their plate with an animal to begin with?

    The way to go about changing this is education. Video's, tv programmes, posters, teaching etc is a start...but I really dont think its anywhere near enough. The only way I think things will begin to change for animals is if people are put in regular contact with farm animals so they can see and fully connect to what animals are and what it means to eat mass murdered animals. I really cant see how that can happen on a large scale :(

    Also, I have a fair emount of respect for people who hunt for themselves. Its not something I could do, but I do think it is far better for the animal to be killed having led a wild life and for the human to understand and be connected to the process of killing that animal. Though It does seem a little unfair to me that we are in the position to hunt animals, but other animals are not in a position to hunt us.

    [/INDENT]

  • Quote from tekno

    Can you please provide some evidence that the sole purpose of mass production of soya is too feed cattle...:D



    HTML
    1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3622108.stm


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    I am not disbelieving what you are saying... But to my mind it cannot be just solely for that purpose... especially when you consider the rise of the amount of people that eat soya products



    I don't believe it is solely for that purpose but it is mainly for this purpose and its cheap fodder for farm animals. Also most of the soya products produced for vegans tend to be from ethical sources, for example alpro soya who does yoghuts and milk has a very good ethical policy. The other thing to point out is not all vegans actually eat very much soya in their diets. I know I don't eat very much at all-I have yoghurts from alpro but my milk is almond milk, and other than that I don't eat much else that contains soya products.

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    1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/apr/04/conservationandendangeredspecies.guardiansocietysupplement



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    I also want to make it clear that I am not veggie/vegan bashing... but rather pointing out (like Atomik has) that most of the food we consume is not produced ethically... If the example i used is incorrect I apologise... But I would like to see the evidence that I am wrong first... ;)



    I never thought you were :) Just wanted to point out the misconception as its something that a lot of people think.:)

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May all beings have happiness and create the causes of happiness.
    May they all be free from suffering and from creating the causes of suffering.
    [/FONT]

  • The average meat eater eats more soya than an average vegan. Soya is used in 60% of all processed foods as well as most of the cattle feed used for beef production.

  • Quote from PlutoPete


    It's the unatural and cruel farming methods that I object to.


    And I agree with that 100%, as I said i my post all animals should be free range and not force fed to fatten them up.:D

  • Quote from Dibdabs

    [INDENT]Also, I have a fair emount of respect for people who hunt for themselves. Its not something I could do, but I do think it is far better for the animal to be killed having led a wild life and for the human to understand and be connected to the process of killing that animal. Though It does seem a little unfair to me that we are in the position to hunt animals, but other animals are not in a position to hunt us.

    [/INDENT]


    Hunting wild boar can be incredibly dangerous. If you are spotted the boar could attack and you would have little time to get your rifle ready for a clean shot. When hunting with a rifle you always carry it around in a safe way and only have it ready when you are about to shoot. On the other hand you could use a hunting dog to hold the boar. The sort of dog you would use would be dogs like pit bulls and mastiffs, but that is not without its risks as the boar could still inflict serious injuries to the dogs.


    Farming meat is a factor that is pushing up food prices in general. It is more costly in resources to feed a more meat based diet than one that is more vegetable based. As more of the worlds population is getting richer and therefore eating more meat the higher the price of grain.


    I am of the view that if somebody wants to eat meat then it is their choice, but to reduce economic pressures the consumption of meat should be reduced.


    Matt

  • Quote from Atomik

    Meaning?


    I also was... how did you put it... "pondering some of the questions that your post raised in my mind."


    If you choose to see that as me being defensive or confrontational that is your choice, your path. I was not. I was just answering your question and elaborating on how some people might view my answer. Maybe instead of the word "you" I should have put ...


    "As to whether me stopping someone from torturing a cat could be claimed to be me "shove your opinions in their face".. well if that's how people want to see it that's up to them. Yes I would step in and stop them. If by doing that and not trying to sway peoples opinion off eating meat by telling them over and over that by eating meat they are cruel and heartless, people think I'm a hypocrite... well people are entitled to their opinion. I just prefer a different way to get my message across and find it far more successful."


    maybe that would have made it clearer that I was not being defensive or confrontational.


    Anyway this is getting off topic.


    I just believe there are many ways to achieve a goal. I have found that leading by example and explaining why you behave that way when someone asks is much more productive way of changing the way people think about an issue especially the issue of whether eating meat is right or not.


    :)

  • Quote from Skully

    maybe that would have made it clearer that I was not being defensive or confrontational.

    Ah, top banana. Looked previously like it was aimed at me personally... specially the hypocrite bit, which puzzled me, coz I never called you a hypocrite. A lot clearer now. Thankies. :)


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    I just believe there are many ways to achieve a goal. I have found that leading by example and explaining why you behave that way when someone asks is much more productive way of changing the way people think about an issue especially the issue of whether eating meat is right or not.

    That's my preferred approach. Like I said earlier... I rarely even mention I'm veggie unless people ask. But I've also found that people are actually "converted" more easily through confronting their views. It makes them think and challenge their preconceptions. Not the path that I'd choose, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen it work. I used to be actively involved in a lot of veggie promotion, and it was amazing the number of people you'd see arguing vehemently in favour of meat-eating, only to come up to you randomly a couple of weeks later saying they'd gone veggie. I dunno... no clear cut rights or wrongs on this one, I don't think.

  • Personally I am veggie and intend to go vegan in the next couple of years, all though i am not rushing into it becuase i don't want to be an unhealthy vegan i want to be a healthy one.


    There are many reasons why i went veggie and why i want to go vegan. Largely becuase of the cruelty associated with the meat/diary industries. Because of the environmental impact a meat diet has, becuase i could not happily kill an animal myself and therefore i think it is cowardly of me to just expect other people to do it, for health reasons (if i do it healthily) and becuase generally the thought of eating an other animals flesh really makes me feel sick.


    The way i look at it is that in this country we can live easily and happily off a vegan diet. We don't need to eat meat in this country to survive. I have no problem with people eating meat in countries where they need to eat meat to survive. That is basic survival...there is nothing wrong with that. I f i had to eat meat sometime to survive i would. That is survival. Right now though, in this country i don't....so i don't eat meat and in the next couple of years wont eat any animal products or buy any animal products.


    As for the soya thing...as far as i know, most soya is used feeding livestock anyway, and that eating too much soya isn't very healthy so i generally try and avoid using soya. There are plenty animal free, soya free vegan alternatives out there.


    I never really go on about peoples diets. Unless they ask me about mine...
    At the end of the day i live with a meat eater.


    What i really really hate though is how a lot of meat eaters feel the need to attack me over what i like to eat. I am sick to death of explaining my view to people only to be told that " you can not survive on a vegan diet" "that we are meant to eat meat" "that it is out right to eat meat", "that you wont be able to eat anything if you go vegan". I am sick of meat eaters shoving meat in my face and generally just being dicks because i have chosen not to partake in something i feel strongly against.

  • Quote from Kaiya

    Personally I am sick of meat eaters shoving meat in my face and generally just being dicks because i have chosen not to partake in something i feel strongly against.


    I think they are dicks for not having respect for what you are, I eat meat but i would never do something like that to anyone.:mad:

  • oops sorry tried quoting a section,most hunters i talk too use a fraction of broadmouth dog in their mix breed hunting dogs using collie or another type of herding/gundog mix,boxer x lab is another favorite,alot find pittbulls too unpredictable.

  • Quote

    I am of the view that if somebody wants to eat meat then it is their choice, but to reduce economic pressures the consumption of meat should be reduced.



    won't help the rice shortage much

  • Quote from tekno

    Can you please provide some evidence that the sole purpose of mass production of soya is too feed cattleat I am wrong first..




    Firstly, I would like to say that it is not only soya that is grown for animal feed there are also various grains aswell. There is more land given over to grow crops to feed animals than to feed humans.............obviously with millions of animals being grown for meat, they are going to need feeding!

    Secondly, it is a fact that 'emissions' if you like from animals grown for meat are also effecting the environment far more than emissions from cars etc.

    Thirdly, to address this notion of plants feeling pain etc.............I wouldn't put much store by scientists coming up with that one, as they have been found to be wrong and 'change their minds' on a lot of things through the years. One week they're telling you wine is bad for you, and the next it's good for your heart!:rolleyes:
    The way I look at it is, I want to go through this life causing as little harm and pain to every living being. You can hardly compare a plant to a living, breathing, warm blooded animal who has 2 eyes, 2 ears, a mouth, nose (need I go on) just like we do, who can sense danger and whose heart beats faster in fear.
    Try putting yourself in the place of one of those animals being led into a slaughterhouse to die...............don't brush over the stark reality of what happens, they deserve that from you at least.........don't they? :)

    p.s. Tekno, not wanting to be pedantic here but I didn't see you providing any proof that soya IS grown solely to feed veggies! :whistle: :D

  • Even if plants could feel pain and do understand they are being eaten. We need to eat something to survive. It still makes sense just to eat the plants instead of feeding the plants to animals and then to slaughter and eat them too.

  • Can i throw another another stick in the fire.
    Lets say that everyone on this planet did not eat meat what would happen to the cows, there would not be any farmers willing to keep them or any other cattle so in the future peeps will have to take their kids to a themepark to see them weird man.
    :eek: