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UKHippy is a long running online community and of likeminded people exploring all interpretations on what it means to be living an alternative lifestyle -- we welcome discussions on everything related to sustainability, the environment, alternative spirituality, music, festivals, politics and more -- membership of this website is free but supported by the community.

  • Quote from princesstigermouse

    Rather depends on your definition of moral, I should think. Could be a Noble Lie type scenario.



    do you mean like in the islamic faith where its not a sin to lie if your supporting your cause?

  • Quote from Elliott

    thats not entirly true.

    It's absolutely true. Belief and proof are two different things. For example, I believe he existed, but I don't regard it as proven.

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    what would you say were the main point of reference for this.

    For what, exactly? How do you mean?


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    what do you know of jesus. about his teachings and claims?

    What do I know or what do I believe?

  • Quote from Elliott

    do you mean like in the islamic faith where its not a sin to lie if your supporting your cause?



    That's one way of looking at it. It was something Plato wrote about in The Republic, and is about an elite telling untruths (possibly of a religious nature but not necessarily) to promote the greater good of society and to make people happier to live within it.

  • Quote from Atomik

    It's absolutely true. Belief and proof are two different things. For example, I believe he existed, but I don't regard it as proven.

    well its true that we dont have the body of jesus to say he existed. cause on that line that would be the only proof other that knowing him now to say that he did exist. so outside of that why would be able to prove anything. it would all be based on what we do have to paint a picture. for jesus to have been so important that our calender is based on his life and death it would seem worthy of enquiry. why is this? who was he? and what does this mean for us?


    Quote from Atomik


    For what, exactly? How do you mean?


    well, if we believe jesus to have existed then we can know somehtings about him. what he said and did to suggest he was a revelutionary. so what gives you this picture


    Quote from Atomik


    What do I know or what do I believe?


    why have you heard, read, seen been told?

  • Quote from Atomik

    Ah, but we do. If you read between the lines in the gospels, there's a fair bit of evidence that Jesus was married.



    which ones in particular?

  • Quote from Elliott

    well its true that we dont have the body of jesus to say he existed. cause on that line that would be the only proof other that knowing him now to say that he did exist. so outside of that why would be able to prove anything. it would all be based on what we do have to paint a picture. for jesus to have been so important that our calender is based on his life and death it would seem worthy of enquiry. why is this? who was he? and what does this mean for us?

    Nothing can ultimately be "proven" beyond all doubt, so what we accept is reasonable proof - for example, a number of independent contemporary accounts would be considered strong evidence, but these are notable by their absence.


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    well, if we believe jesus to have existed then we can know somehtings about him. what he said and did to suggest he was a revelutionary. so what gives you this picture

    We can't know things about him - rather we can speculate based on the little evidence that exists, and on the assumption that some truth has survived in the gospels. This can be done through an understanding of the culture of the time, which gives clues regarding how the biblical texts have changed. For example, we know that the Jewish people wouldn't use the term "rabbi" unless they were describing an actual rabbi. We also know that in the time of Jesus, being married was a pre-requisite for becoming a rabbi. We can therefore infer that biblical references to Christ's marriage may well have been purged, and that Jesus did in fact take a wife. This is also supported by aspects of the account of the wedding at Canaan.


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    why have you heard, read, seen been told?

    Far more than I could paraphrase here. ;)

  • Quote from Elliott

    which ones in particular?


    There is a beleif that the wedding in Canaan was in fact Jesus' own wedding. The fact that Jesus' mother was there would indicate that she was very close family and at one point she tells him that his guests are thirsty and he does the miracle with the wine, it was tradition at that time for the groom to provide the booze at his wedding.

  • I havent read the bible or nothin but I think jesus existed, dunno why just do, i think he was a prophet or if not a really wise holy man way ahead of his time dont think he was the son of god only in the sense that we're all the children of god this isnt a solid beleif i hold just an idea as i dont even really know much about him i guess

    i also beleive that the church has been corrupted and changed here and there to control but o well if christianity fulfills someone and leads them to a happier n moral life i say god bless

  • Quote from Elliott

    which ones in particular?

    See my last post for a couple of examples. During the wedding at Canaan, Jesus is supposed to have turned the water into wine. Providing wine at a wedding feast was the responsibility of the groom. Furthermore:


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    The story of Mary with the alabaster jar anointing the feet of Jesus is cited by some scholars as the most direct witness to their marriage. It is in all four Gospels and was a story in which Jesus gave express command that it be preserved. This ceremony was an ancient one among many royal houses in the ancient world, which sealed the marital union between the king and his priestess spouse. We find it mentioned briefly in the Song of Solomon. Although we may not understand its significance, Jesus and Mary knew exactly what they were doing. To be the valid Messiah, He had to be anointed first by the Bride. They were by-passing the corrupt Jewish establishment.

  • Quote from Atomik

    Ah, but we do. If you read between the lines in the gospels, there's a fair bit of evidence that Jesus was married.


    A lot of talk about Jesus being married here....was there such a thing as marriage in those days as we accept it nowadays or would it be just living together.
    I'm just thinking that there was then probably no church so early after the birth of Jesus to sanction such a thing so would he effectively have been living in sin
    Hope that's not gone off topic a bit

  • Quote from Benijuana

    I havent read the bible or nothin but I think jesus existed, dunno why just do, i think he was a prophet or if not a really wise holy man way ahead of his time dont think he was the son of god


    Several years back when I went to bible classes I was asked how I saw Jesus....I said I thought he was a prophet and was immediately jumped on and told that he was the son of God and if I thought he was a prophet I was using Islamist thinking
    I went off the whole thing after that.

  • Quote from Stardusts Dad

    A lot of talk about Jesus being married here....was there such a thing as marriage in those days as we accept it nowadays or would it be just living together.
    I'm just thinking that there was then probably no church so early after the birth of Jesus to sanction such a thing so would he effectively have been living in sin
    Hope that's not gone off topic a bit


    Well, I suppose Jesus wasn't a christian as there were no christians till after he was pinned up so it would have to be a jewish wedding

  • this is really interesting.. i am reading jesus and the goddess at the mo.. which is a follow up book to this
    i havent got very far yet, but the basis seems to be what ptm said earlier..

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    I don't know if I really believe in Jesus as an actual man who physically existed on the Earth. I think the stories in the Bible about him are a combination of allegories and stories about several different real people... which have been exaggerated in order to suit their social purpose.


    ie that jesus was made up.. an invention of the therapeutae and the essene..that his life was fabricated.. in order to produce an answer to the great questions.
    and in order to create a patriarchal religion
    and that the christianity we recognise now, was the one hijacked by the Romans..
    and that most of the scriptures of the original christians have been supressed and destroyed..
    because originally there was the godman, and the goddess.. which has always made sense to me.. how can you have one and not t'other?
    i have only read the first two chapters, but it is fascinating..
    i have felt that jesus was probably a decent bloke, possibly a healer, and that he probably existed.. but this book is making me reconsider..

  • Quote from Stardusts Dad

    A lot of talk about Jesus being married here....was there such a thing as marriage in those days as we accept it nowadays or would it be just living together.
    I'm just thinking that there was then probably no church so early after the birth of Jesus to sanction such a thing

    You know Jesus was Jewish, right? ;)

  • Quote from Tigerdaddy

    Having spent the first 18 years or so of my life going to sunday school/ bible studies/ church my opinion was formed and this is not meant to upset you or anyone, that Jesus was possibly the best con man the world has ever seen....
    Thats my opinon.... I'm not saying it's right in anyway....:)


    only just picked up this tread and read right through it, i totally agree with Tiggerdaddy, i do believe he exsisted there is too much evidence not to believe in him, i just truely don't believe he was the son of god and it's good to know i'm not alone in my thinking, he's the david blaine in a box of his day.


    I'm gonna get blasted for this, but it is my veiw.:rolleyes:

  • Quote from lulu62uk

    only just picked up this tread and read right through it, i totally agree with Tiggerdaddy, i do believe he exsisted there is too much evidence not to believe in him, i just truely don't believe he was the son of god and it's good to know i'm not alone in my thinking, he's the david blaine in a box of his day.


    I'm gonna get blasted for this, but it is my veiw.:rolleyes:


    Jesus certainly manipulated events, he arranged to ride into town on a donkey at one point in order to fulfil prophesy.

  • you know God isnt defined by Gender tho. thats a human thing. both male and female are made in the image of God and show gods glory. for example. we have a sence of achievement unlike anything else in creation. we can sit back at work we've done and enjoy it knowing that we did the job. we are glorified in our works as god is glorified in creation. but again another thread :p

  • revelations 1

    hebrews 1 v 8-9

    make reference to jesus being God

    Jesus would describe himself as the son of man. and in revellation 1 john says there was one like the son of man and goes on to describe the son of man being god.

    what do you guys make of it?

  • Quote from lulu62uk

    How do you fill a prophesy and when do you know it's full.....:pp


    Jesus fulfilled the prophecies predicted in the Pentateuch of the Old Testament. The Pentateuch is also called the Torah by the Jews. Jesus being a Jew had access to that. It's not hard in light of that for someone to set the prophecies up to be fulfilled. :p

  • Quote from mellowguy

    Jesus fulfilled the prophecies predicted in the Pentateuch of the Old Testament. The Pentateuch is also called the Torah by the Jews. Jesus being a Jew had access to that. It's not hard in light of that for someone to set the prophecies up to be fulfilled. :p



    jesus when he was still a boy also spoke to the teachers in the temple. they recgognised that he had better knowledge of the scriptures than anyman.

  • Quote from Elliott

    jesus when he was still a boy also spoke to the teachers in the temple. they recgognised that he had better knowledge of the scriptures than anyman.


    That doesn't change what I said. Children can read, and many children are often more motivated to learn than adults, and often children can be more intelligent than adults. Intelligence isn't linked to age. Saying he was "just a boy" doesn't demonstrate the existence of anything supernatural.

  • Quote

    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.


    That about sums it up.

  • Quote from mellowguy

    That doesn't change what I said. Children can read, and many children are often more motivated to learn than adults, and often children can be more intelligent than adults. Intelligence isn't linked to age. Saying he was "just a boy" doesn't demonstrate the existence of anything supernatural.



    there is a differents between intellegence and knowledge

  • Quote from Elliott

    there is a differents between intellegence and knowledge


    That still has nothing to do with what I said. I said Jesus was probably an intelligent kid and had the same access to materials as the adult Jewish scholars. How does that require supernatural explanation?

  • Quote from Elliott

    you know God isnt defined by Gender tho. thats a human thing. both male and female are made in the image of God and show gods glory.


    Nope you are wrong about woman being created by god... as far as I recall god created woman by using one of adams ribs... Man was created in gods image woman was an after thought created from man... This piece of christian 'wisdom' helped subjugate women for centuries.. Elliott I strongly suggest you re read genesis! ;)

  • Quote from tekno

    Nope you are wrong about woman being created by god... as far as I recall god created woman by using one of adams ribs



    you just said it yourself.

    god created women by using one of adams ribs (something he also created)

    also its mentioned all throughout the bible of how God is glorified in women and man.

    both men and women are created by god and both bear the image of God.
    this is also another thread i think. ill create one for this as this is pretty simple to explain.
    http://www.ukhippy.com/forums/…d.php?p=504643#post504643

  • Quote from Elliott

    god created women by using one of adams ribs

    Which if you take it literally, kinda begs the question.... why did he need a rib? God being all-powerful and having created man, earth, the heavens, beasts... why would he need a rib to create woman? Also....


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    Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused adeep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

    Reading this passage, god only creates woman in response to Adam's needs. Couldn't god... being omnipotent and omnipresent... predict those needs? And what the hell did god give Adam a willy for if he hadn't already planned on making women? :eek:

  • Okay, this is the thing that has always confused me - if man was created first, why are all embryos female until a little genetic nudge turns ovaries into testes and clitorises into penises? Why do men have nipples?


    For the record, I believe that faith in whatever one believes in is completely and totally personal. Nothing drives me nuttier than the fundamental Christians who believe that if you don't worship their way then you are damned to hell. Jesus (real or not) is attributed with the sentiment of keeping your faith to yourself; that those who proclaim their faith receive the accolades of man but not of God.