Animal Cruelty and so-called art

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  • A friend posted this on another forum. I felt it needed as much attention as possible.

  • wow, im surprised even for shock art this works. makes other people who take the time learn look angelic by comparison. Still dont see how this is art thou.


    Might as well throw shit at a canvas and say thats art. pointless cruelty nothing more. makes you question the mental state of the supposed artist.

  • there was another thread about this - as I understand it, he didn't just take any dog and tie it up until it died .... he took a dog off the streets, that was already starving, and he put it onto display so that people would notice the fact, rather than just ignoring the starving dogs in the street.


    whether it's fair to the animal concerned that it should spend it's last hours on public display chained to a wall is questionable. I suppose it depends how many people who are so quick to sign petitions actualy choose to do something about any other cases, but I'm not condemning the man just yet.


    apparently, they did attempt to feed the dog, but it was so ill by then that it refused food

  • Quote from straykite

    there was another thread about this - as I understand it, he didn't just take any dog and tie it up until it died .... he took a dog off the streets, that was already starving, and he put it onto display so that people would notice the fact, rather than just ignoring the starving dogs in the street./quote]


    ok, so hows about if this theory was applied with regard to all the starving people in the world...how would it go down if someone starving got tied up in trafalgar square and we watched them starve? would that be allowed then so people wouldnt just ignore the fact theres hungry people in the world?


    wether or not that poor dog was already straving, it, more than likely, stood a better chance where it was rather than being tied up in and empty gallery with not food or water and left to emmeciate itself to death


    Quote from straykite

    apparently, they did attempt to feed the dog, but it was so ill by then that it refused food


    a desperatly ill street animal be taken to a vet etc or just left alone, not a gallery ?? being left alone would've been better than to be humiliated as 'dying art'. surely.


    did the gallery bloke get paid for his 'art'?


    please, if its not too much twubble, could a mod please put those pics behind a spoiler, so i (and maybe others) can follow this thread without having to see them pictures? if thats ok. thanks muchly :)


  • I don't think there are any easy answers to this - maybe the dog should have been taken to a vet, but then who would pay the vet - should the vet then have to treat all homeless/wild animals for free ?


    would we do the same thing with people ? well, that's a thin end of the wedge argument, and I could go the other way, and ask if you'd have cared as much if it was a mouse, or to stretch it further a maggot chained to the wall.


    if you look at the myspace page, animal charities have jumped straight onto this, and I'm sure that some people who've seen those links will have gone so far as to donate, as well as simply signing petitions, so some animals may end up getting better treatment, as a result of this person raising awareness in this way.


    as to whether the artist gets payed - if their raising awareness in this way results in some animals being treated better, I see no reason why they shouldn't be payed, but I think it's important that we differentiate between a world that has placed the dog into a position where it's starving, and an artist who has chosen a rather dramatic means to bring this to people's attention. Be wary of shooting the messenger.

  • it will certainly bring this issue to the attention of more people and yes, that is not a bad thing. its just thats its an extremely cruel way, in my humble opinion, of doing so.


    i wonder how many people went to see it. makes me feel ill keep thinking about it :(

  • What i don't understand is how people went to see this and didn't do anything about it. If i had seen that in a gallery i would have walked that dog straight out of there or made the biggest scene trying.


    I don't see how it matters whever he was using this "art" as awareness or whatever...it was wrong and someone should have done something about it.


    If you find a starving dog in the streets you should take it to the vets/an animal charity, not put it in an expedition no matter what point you are trying to make.


    Quote

    and ask if you'd have cared as much if it was a mouse, or to stretch it further a maggot chained to the wall.


    I would have cared as much if it was a mouse or any other animal. I don't think i would have cared "as much" if it was a maggot but then how intelligent is a maggot and to what extent does a maggot suffer?. I still wouldn't agree with it morally if it was a maggot though and at the end of the day, it wasn't a maggot, it was a dog!

  • Quote from Kaiya

    What i don't understand is how people went to see this and didn't do anything about it. If i had seen that in a gallery i would have walked that dog straight out of there or made the biggest scene trying.


    so you're saying, that having seen something you found moraly reprihensible, you would have done something very dramatic to draw attention to the fact .....


    Quote from Kaiya


    If you find a starving dog in the streets you should take it to the vets/an animal charity, not put it in an expedition no matter what point you are trying to make.


    what should you do if you find 100 dogs starving in the streets ? what should you do if you find 1000 ?

  • Quote from straykite

    so you're saying, that having seen something you found moraly reprihensible, you would have done something very dramatic to draw attention to the fact .....


    if i saw a starving dog in an art gallery i would go fetch the dog and try and walk it out and if security stopped me i would make a scene about it yes, until it led to my arrest. I am not going to stand and watch people let a dog starve without giving doing something about it a good go.




    Quote

    what should you do if you find 100 dogs starving in the streets ? what should you do if you find 1000 ?


    If i found dogs starving in the street i would phone the rspca or something and have someone pick them up if i found one stray dog id prob take it home with me and go from there. I appreciate that if i came across a large number of stray dogs that were obviously starving to death, flea ridden, were unable to look after themselves and needed help that they probably can't all be rehomed and inevitably they will have to be put down but the dogs could then be put down humanely not left to starve to death in an art gallery. At the end of the day, if he was just going to leave the dog he should have left it in the streets at least then it had a chance of finding food and surviving instead of tying it to a wall so it doesn't even have that chance and cruelly letting it starve to death.

  • Quote from velvetcollie

    it will certainly bring this issue to the attention of more people and yes, that is not a bad thing. its just thats its an extremely cruel way, in my humble opinion, of doing so.


    agreed to an extent - but the fact that I personaly haven't thought of a better way makes me refrain from condemning this man at the moment.


    I would say that amidst all of the complaints, I've yet to see anyone else post a better way of doing this either.

  • Quote from straykite

    agreed to an extent - but the fact that I personaly haven't thought of a better way makes me refrain from condemning this man at the moment.


    I would say that amidst all of the complaints, I've yet to see anyone else post a better way of doing this either.



    he could have taken pictures of it before finding it help, taken pictures of other starving street animals and made an expedition based on that or filmed it for a while and shown that. It is showing the same thing without actually letting an animal starve to death.

  • Quote from Kaiya

    if i saw a starving dog in an art gallery i would go fetch the dog and try and walk it out and if security stopped me i would make a scene about it yes, until it led to my arrest. I am not going to stand and watch people let a dog starve without giving doing something about it a good go.


    I think you missed my point ...


    the artist in question saw a scene he found moraly reprehensible, and without caring if he pissed people off, he did what he thought was necessary to remedy the situation.


    You're trying to save one dog, he's trying to save 1000's at the expense of one dog. That's the only difference. It's true, we wouldn't justify this if it were a person, but like you said - it's a dog. Which they apparently tried to feed.


    Quote from Kaiya


    If i found dogs starving in the street i would phone the rspca or something and have someone pick them up if i found one stray dog id prob take it home with me and go from there. I appreciate that if i came across a large number of stray dogs that were obviously starving to death, flea ridden, were unable to look after themselves and needed help that they probably can't all be rehomed and inevitably they will have to be put down but the dogs could then be put down humanely not left to starve to death in an art gallery. At the end of the day, if he was just going to leave the dog he should have left it in the streets at least then it had a chance of finding food and surviving instead of tying it to a wall so it doesn't even have that chance and cruelly letting it starve to death.


    I think this exhibition was in Brazil, although can't remember why I think that, so phoning the RSPCA might have been a bit of a long shot - I've not idea if the Brazilians have similar organisastions.


    I wonder if you're suggesting that they should round up all the stray starving animals in brazil and put them down, or simply that they should all be left to carry on starving ?


    Or maybe someone (or even many people) could do something (or many things), to raise awareness, and maybe even money, to fund an organisation something like the RSPCA ....

  • the grim reality is thou, there is no good or bad only flesh and how the patterns to how people control it for there own individual needs for whatever psychological need.. this is passed off as art. passed off as..

  • maybe i should pick up a child off the street and starve them, seems like a quick way to fame, as well as saving thousands of children's lives

  • Quote from Kaiya

    he could have taken pictures of it before finding it help, taken pictures of other starving street animals and made an expedition based on that or filmed it for a while and shown that. It is showing the same thing without actually letting an animal starve to death.


    I doubt many would have paid as much attention. This guy has managed to get international coverage. Just how shocking are your photo's going to be to manage that.


    and the animals will still starve ....


    I'm now thinking they should chain a person up in a london gallery to raise awareness for world hunger .... I'm sure there are some models thin enough and deperate enough for the exposure to do it ... or just tale a hobo off the streets .... :whistle:

  • Quote from earth&air

    maybe i should pick up a child off the street and starve them, seems like a quick way to fame, as well as saving thousands of children's lives


    if anyone is interested, we're not the first people to discuss such situations, it's a standard ethical dilema


    "A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?"


    alternatively


    As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

  • Quote from straykite

    if anyone is interested, we're not the first people to discuss such situations, it's a standard ethical dilema


    tho is it ethical to make 'art' out of in-humainly exploiting an ethical dilema?
    :down:

  • Quote from velvetcollie

    tho is it ethical to make 'art' out of in-humainly exploiting an ethical dilema?
    :down:



    yes. yes it is.


    but only on mondays wednesdays and friday afternoons.

  • The thing is though is that i really doubt he has made that much difference.


    And why actually let it starve completely to death? He could exhibit the starving dog to make his point without actually letting it starve to death...If it was too ill to eat then it should have been humanely put down.

  • Whatever the original motivations for this so-called art (and I do think there can be no excuse for willfully submitting the dog to further pain), the repeat of the performance surely only has one meaning - the furtherance of the career of the artist. Should a dog die a painful and frightening death so that people think what a good artist moves the debate away from the whole one dog to save many imho.