Healing through prayer

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  • I just remembered something about a friend from an old job. His father (or grandfather I think) was ill, quite badly ill. He recovered and his grandmother said it must have been because she and her friends prayed for him to recover.


    Assuming there is a big plan laid out for all of us, this would mean praying to God would have persuaded Him to reconsider someone's destiny, and the destinies of all those affected by it.


    What's more, what if the guy had actually died? Would that have been "part of God's plan"? So why would He be willing to delay the death of some people and not others when it's all part of His plan? I guess this goes for hypothetical situations where there is a plan and where there isn't a plan. If there isn't a plan, what goes wrong when praying for someone's good health doesn't work?


    You could say that, through seeing how many people cared and prayed for the ill fellow, God saw how concerned people were about him and allowed him to recover, but if God is omnipresent and omnipotent surely he should have known already?


    Allowing him to recover after seeing how many people would be upset by the person's passing? Everybody dies eventually, why would God simply delay the inevitable?



    There's one thing about factory work...it gives you time to think crazy questions like this. :D

  • But then what happens to those who are prayed for but don't pull through? Does God know that they will be prayed for too, but He decides not to take note?

  • I have had the experience of witnessing healing through prayer and i am aware of how easy it is to say the God answered your prayer for healing of cancer or somesuch thing....and then just ignoring the times when people get prayed for and they don't get better.



    I cannot clam to understand everything about prayer as i am still learning myself.


    What i do think though, is that Gods massive plan does involve people dying and getting worse instead of better. Not to say that He doesn't answer prayer at all, but that sometimes the answer to a prayer is different from what we want or expect.


    In my opinion i don't think it would be rational for God to answer every prayer with a yes (see the film Bruce Almighty), but at the same time it would be just as bad to answer every prayer with a no. Therefore it makes sense to me that some prayers seem to be answered while others appear to be ignored.


    I also think that when prayers for healing are answered, or prayers in general, i believe that there is a reason for that. So i believe that rather than it just being about somebody getting healed, i believe that it's about God being glorified and His power being shown, but also some other reason which may or may not become clear later on.


    So for example, i prayed for a bit a while ago for my short sighted eyes to be healed, and they weren't. Admittedly i do have glasses so it's not a huge need, but it's not just about christians prayers getting answered and others not.


    When it comes to terminal illness's and deadly diseases and mental illnesses in people we know and love, it is harder to grasp that perhaps eternally speaking this isn't so bad after all. It maybe that the person who is dying is going to heaven. We cannot know really for sure what people decided on their deathbeds. And if a person is going to heaven then it doesn't really matter what hurts that person had on earth, for in heaven it will be as if none of that ever happened. Just as in hell, i imagine that for the person who seemed to have the happiest of times on earth, would have been for nothing and will equally not matter.

  • who says it was God...
    maybe just seeing and feeling the love & care these people were showing him, lifted this mans spirits enough to enable his body to get better....


    or (the new age spiritual/neo-pagan version)


    they were in tune enough with this mans energy to help him with the healing process....


    prayer is not just the domain of the Christian or monotheistic......

  • Now, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that the difference between prayer and magic is that the former offers our service to the divine whilst the latter tries to achieve an end (even if an indirect end).... :confused:


    So the idea of "praying" for healing is not offering to a deity but rather seeking to change events.....which is magic, not prayer. Prayer is more akin to "not my will, but thy will be done".


    So it wasnt "prayer".

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Ses

    In a christian context prayer isn't just offering service to God, it's conversation.


    Yet isnt the essence of christian prayer ye olde pater noster?


    "Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as in heaven.


    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our sins
    as we forgive those who sin against us.
    Save us from the time of trial
    and deliver us from evil."

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from magic tea

    That's not the only prayer, and I'm sure it isn't the first.


    Yet that is how christians are told to pray isnt it?


    The idea of praying for something goes against the whole "not my will but thy will be done"....

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Well yes, Jesus said use that as a model. But it's hardly the only prayer out there.


    And no, I don't think it does. the Bible tells us 'Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.'


    You can ask God for anything you like. It may be His will, it may not be. But it doesn't mean you're not allowed to ask

  • One of the most helpful prayers (IMO) sums it all up:


    [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]"God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Living one day at a time;
    Enjoying one moment at a time;
    Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
    Taking, as He did, this sinful world
    as it is, not as I would have it;
    Trusting that He will make all things right
    if I surrender to His Will;
    That I may be reasonably happy in this life
    and supremely happy with Him
    Forever in the next.
    Amen.[/FONT]"

  • Quote from Ses

    Well yes, Jesus said use that as a model. But it's hardly the only prayer out there.


    And no, I don't think it does. the Bible tells us 'Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.'


    You can ask God for anything you like. It may be His will, it may not be. But it doesn't mean you're not allowed to ask


    Ah, that bloke Paul......added lots, he did.....:xwink:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Cheers for the replies. It's something that's been running around my mind randomly for a while, so good to hear some other viewpoints.


  • And even Neibuhr says in there "Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will"......


    It seems contradictory for a prayer to ask for the wisdom to stop asking :xlaugh:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Ses

    Don't ask for a serious discussion if you're going to be like that.


    Like what? Seriously discussing? ;)


    Paul added a lot to what Jesus said...so I always find it head-scratchy when people who claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus seem to rely so much on what Paul actually wrote.... ;) especially when he directly contradicts a simple explanation such as:



    From my favourite chapter of the whole book :) Praying beyond this really is a sign of pride, isnt it? Or at least teaching your grandmother to suck eggs....?

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • The Lord's prayer is a model. Jesus himself prayed other things than that collection of words... do you really think he spent all night in Gethsemane just saying that prayer over and over again? The Lord's prayer is a model of how to honor God, seek His will, talk to him about our needs, expect His provision and offer ourselves to His service.


    What is 'give us today our daily bread' if not a petition?


    You're saying that praying beyond that is a sign of pride... well *just* praying that is hardly going to build up a personal relationship with someone is it? What do you think would happen if all I said to my boyfriend was 'Hi, I like you, I want to make you happy, you're cute.' ?? Wouldn't get me very far would it?

    God doesn't want us to sit in our pews and repeat the same prayer book and sing the same songs over and over again. Because that's not faith, that's not relationship or love, that's routine. Some religions may require routine, but God doesn't.


  • And also look at the Psalms. Big fat book. Full of requests.


    Written by David... a guy who screwed up a lot but was still Israel's greatest King. A guy honoured and praised by God. A book that has been used by Jews and Christians for song lyrics for thousands of years....


    God listens to our prayers... because he cares. He may not always give us what we want but He's our father, and what father doens't want his children to pour out their hearts to him??

  • I went in a church in Nottingham last week to light a candle for my dad who died and my partners dad who also had died. On the way home on the bus I recieved a phonecall from my sons dad saying that my sons grandad had had a heart attack , he died on the 21st December.
    I only go to church at christmas to light the candles and feel closer to those I have lost. To recieve that phonecall on the one day I do go to church felt a little strange to me for a couple of days, like i wished I had not got that close to things spiritul. I dont know !


  • Strange, isn't it, how you get more paradoxes with a God than without one... can't think why that is at all :whistle:

  • Quote from John

    Strange, isn't it, how you get more paradoxes with a God than without one... can't think why that is at all :whistle:


    Well, that depends on how you define "God"..... ;)


    Quote from Ses

    The Lord's prayer is a model. Jesus himself prayed other things than that collection of words... do you really think he spent all night in Gethsemane just saying that prayer over and over again? The Lord's prayer is a model of how to honor God, seek His will, talk to him about our needs, expect His provision and offer ourselves to His service.


    What is 'give us today our daily bread' if not a petition?


    You will find "bread" used quite a lot in the Bible, usually as a reference to basic material needs being met as standard.


    And as for what happened in Gethsemane....


    Quote from Mark 14

    he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to you. Take this cup away from me, but not what I will but what you will."


    Which sounds a lot like "I dont want this, but that isnt what is important here" to me....


    Quote from Ses


    You're saying that praying beyond that is a sign of pride... well *just* praying that is hardly going to build up a personal relationship with someone is it? What do you think would happen if all I said to my boyfriend was 'Hi, I like you, I want to make you happy, you're cute.' ?? Wouldn't get me very far would it?


    Does your boyfriend "
    [know all that] you need before you ask him"? :whistle:

    Quote

    God doesn't want us to sit in our pews and repeat the same prayer book and sing the same songs over and over again. Because that's not faith, that's not relationship or love, that's routine. Some religions may require routine, but God doesn't.


    I think you will find that the 'pater noster' isnt intended as "routine" but as rather a simple truth on the nature of the relationship between the human and the divine, which doesnt change. Faith and love them come out of that unchanging basic of "not my will, but thy will be done" :)


    Quote

    And also look at the Psalms. Big fat book. Full of requests.


    Written by David... a guy who screwed up a lot but was still Israel's greatest King. A guy honoured and praised by God. A book that has been used by Jews and Christians for song lyrics for thousands of years....


    Yep, lots and lots of words...


    "In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words." (Matt 6: 7) :whistle: ;)

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • You know what... nothing I say will make you change your mind. Because even if the truth hit you on the head you'd still say it was lies. But I KNOW it's true. Because I've been healed through prayer, God has provided things that are way beyond my basic material needs, stuff I didn't need but just really wanted. God wants to do good things in our lives, but He doesn't force Himself on us, you have to ask Him. And I'm going to carry on asking, none of your arguments and picking little bits out of a bible you don't even believe in is going to change that.


    No amount of little smiley and whistling smilies is going to change the fact that all anyone seems to do in a discussion about religion is try and belittle christians and their beliefs, in a patronising manner that says 'you go ahead and believe in your invisible friend you silly little girl.'


    How about you all learn a bit of respect for other people, until then I don't want to be a part of this.

  • Quote from Ses

    You know what... nothing I say will make you change your mind. Because even if the truth hit you on the head you'd still say it was lies.


    :xsurprise


    :calmdown:


    Nowhere have I accused anyone of lying (not even Paul (thats the saint, not the admin :D the admin is a lying bullshitter :xpoke::xwink: )).


    Quote

    But I KNOW it's true. Because I've been healed through prayer,


    Which was it that healed you? "Prayer" or God? They are not, of necessity, the same thing. Well, ok, yes they are, but not in the way most assume :cool:


    Is this God a seperate being from you?


    Quote

    God has provided things that are way beyond my basic material needs, stuff I didn't need but just really wanted. God wants to do good things in our lives, but He doesn't force Himself on us, you have to ask Him. And I'm going to carry on asking, none of your arguments and picking little bits out of a bible you don't even believe in is going to change that.


    No amount of little smiley and whistling smilies is going to change the fact that all anyone seems to do in a discussion about religion is try and belittle christians and their beliefs, in a patronising manner that says 'you go ahead and believe in your invisible friend you silly little girl.'


    I'm not belittling christians

    , quite the contrary, I have a lot of time for genuine christians. What I have little time for is Paulians who think they are Christians as their typical response is one of ejecting teddies from prams whenever you question them. Now if you are a christian, that is, you follow what jesus actually said (rather than what others have said he meant) then we dont have a problem, do we?


    Quote

    How about you all learn a bit of respect for other people, until then I don't want to be a part of this.


    Judge not, and you wont be judged ;)

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Coyote


    Judge not, and you wont be judged ;)



    technically it's "judge not, lest ye be judged" as in if you make judgements about people then it's likely that judgements will be made about you too.


    It doesn't really matter what judgements are made here on earth really, God is the ultimate judge and we will all be judged at the end of time.


    but back to the original thread subject, there is another side to it as ses has mentioned. Prayer is communication. It is a conversation. The christian p.o.v to prayer is getting closer to God, i mean-getting intimate with Him. It's not just about a shopping list, running to Him when things get rough. In the bible, we are informed to be 'constant in prayer'....and i have found personally and in many other christians lives that as we get to know God better, our prayers change, and we end up praying for different things that we actually need. Whereas perhaps in the beginning of our walk with God we are praying for ....um....let's say material desires....i don't know...like....things that don't seem as important later on.


    As a christian i also believe that prayer is 2-way...i that we get a reply of God, by various means. I haven't met anyone who has had God reply in a booming loudspeakerish voice but i bet there's a few. I find that God speaks through people, things, places, tv, media, but also the bible especcially.



    ANother important part of christian prayer is that we can come to God informally and address Him as Father, whereas in perhaps the jewish or muslim faith they address God/Allah in a singularly respectful way. Not that as christians we shouldn't respect God, but that as well as Him being a great and respectful God, through Jesus we can come close to Him and know Him personally as our Father.

  • Quote from Lozi


    technically it's "judge not, lest ye be judged" as in if you make judgements about people then it's likely that judgements will be made about you too.


    Orrrrr its a theological point that so long as you judge others you yourself will be judged (either by yourself or by God - remember, the sin of Adam may well have been disobedience but the action was to judge Good and Evil). :)


    Quote

    Quote

    Prayer is communication. It is a conversation.


    So could you comment on how that fits with Matthew 6:7 "
    In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words" then?


    Or are you confusing communion (small "c" ;) ) with prayer?


    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Ruthy

    Paul was an amazingly godly guy......sorry i just wanted to say that :xgrin:


    In that case, follow his instruction


    "Let a woman learn in silence in all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." :xwink:

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Ses

    You know what... nothing I say will make you change your mind. Because even if the truth hit you on the head you'd still say it was lies. But I KNOW it's true. Because I've been healed through prayer, God has provided things that are way beyond my basic material needs, stuff I didn't need but just really wanted. God wants to do good things in our lives, but He doesn't force Himself on us, you have to ask Him. And I'm going to carry on asking, none of your arguments and picking little bits out of a bible you don't even believe in is going to change that.

    No amount of little smiley and whistling smilies is going to change the fact that all anyone seems to do in a discussion about religion is try and belittle christians and their beliefs, in a patronising manner that says 'you go ahead and believe in your invisible friend you silly little girl.'

    How about you all learn a bit of respect for other people, until then I don't want to be a part of this.



    sweetheart. Don't feel bad. I know it can be hard sometimes, i do completly understand how you feel.....but I'm around and others who can relate too you. I love reading your comments on ukhippy. please don't feel discoraged!!!

  • Quote from Coyote

    In that case, follow his instruction

    "Let a woman learn in silence in all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." :xwink:



    Hahahaha! thats in chruch. if my church inforecd that. then so be it. I wouldn't feel belittled by it.

    Hey, can i ask you a question? how did you came to read so much of the Bible? :xgrin: