Is meat murder? [split thread]

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  • Quote from wiggy

    war is murder - meat is normal (in a crap somerset accent)


    rape is 'normal' if you're a rapist. what is 'normal' anyway?

    The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine - Abraham Lincoln

  • Quote from Zee

    rape is 'normal' if you're a rapist. what is 'normal' anyway?


    ow, dude, she has a point.
    omnivore does = our natural diet.
    I thought people who were veggie/vegan etc disagreed with the farming methods not the innate human instinct of eating meat?

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan


    I thought people who were veggie/vegan etc disagreed with the farming methods not the innate human instinct of eating meat?

    Not me. I don't believe humans are really meant to eat meat and it is just something that they can do - as a survival technique. Nothing about humans really suggests to me that we're meant to eat meat. I could explain it all but it'd only drag the thread off-topic and cause Coyote to have a huge attack of antivegetarianism. Maybe another time.

  • Quote from John

    Not me. I don't believe humans are really meant to eat meat and it is just something that they can do - as a survival technique. Nothing about humans really suggests to me that we're meant to eat meat. I could explain it all but it'd only drag the thread off-topic and cause Coyote to have a huge attack of antivegetarianism. Maybe another time.



    I don't see what Coyote has got to do with anything.
    Survival techniques are instinct though, surely.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    I don't see what Coyote has got to do with anything.

    Because he is [STRIKETHROUGH]an argumentative bastard[/STRIKETHROUGH] a heavy debater in this subject.

    Quote

    Survival techniques are instinct though, surely.

    Nah, instinct is that feeling of wanting to rip apart, say, cows and eat their raw flesh straight from their steaming corpse. I don't know about you but that isn't an instinct I possess. When did you last feel an instinctive urge to kill and consume an animal raw?

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan


    omnivore does = our natural diet.

    Not exactly - The natural diet for humans had very little animal product in it. Our ancestors were mainly scavengers who chomped on fruit, veg and nuts, with an occasional burst of protein from grubs and insects. Hunting for anything larger came later, and was only a very small part of our Paleolithic lives - and that mainly happened when we had no other means of survival. (EG Ice age).

    We haven't even got the proper teeth for ripping flesh in the way that carnivores have. Our teeth are more like those of gorillas, and they are vegan.

    So, if you want to do things the natural way then start digging up those bugs. :D

    Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    I thought people who were veggie/vegan etc disagreed with the farming methods not the innate human instinct of eating meat?

    Firstly I think eating meat is more cultural than instinctive. But for me it's a bit of both - I've got nothing against people eating meat if their environment leaves them with little alternative (think Inuit) - However, even if meat was farmed in the most wholesome, humane way possible it would still result in totally unnecessary killing. Why should I deny another creature its life simply because I like the taste of it?

  • Quote from Paul

    Not exactly - The natural diet for humans had very little animal product in it. Our ancestors were mainly scavengers who chomped on fruit, veg and nuts, with an occasional burst of protein from grubs and insects. Hunting for anything larger came later, and was only a very small part of our Paleolithic lives - and that mainly happened when we had no other means of survival. (EG Ice age).


    We haven't even got the proper teeth for ripping flesh in the way that carnivores have. Our teeth are more like those of gorillas, and they are vegan.


    So, if you want to do things the natural way then start digging up those bugs. :D

    Firstly I think eating meat is more cultural than instinctive. But for me it's a bit of both - I've got nothing against people eating meat if their environment leaves them with little alternative (think Inuit) - However, even if meat was farmed in the most wholesome, humane way possible it would still result in totally unnecessary killing. Why should I deny another creature its life simply because I like the taste of it?



    that's what i meant - even if you'rte only eating a little meat, you're still an omnivore, surely tho..
    I just think we are omnivores, we are adapted to eat both meat and veg stuff and we've evolved this way for a reason. of course as modern and 'civilised' people we have the choice of what do eat but as wild ferral beings yo'd eat what you got your hands on and i'd think it was instinct, and not wrong, in thst situation to eat another animal.

    I didn't want to get into a debate about whether you should eat an animal just cos u like the taste of it, i agree that's wrong, but that is of course just my opinion.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from Paul

    Our ancestors were mainly scavengers who chomped on fruit, veg and nuts, with an occasional burst of protein from grubs and insects.

    Undeniable for some of our ancestors... but does it hold true all the way back? I'd be interested to learn. As, as you said, our teeth (and, indeed, digestive system) are set up more similar to that of vegan animals.

  • er, okay, paul has split this thread so fair do's, but i wouldn't ordinarily have created a thread like this: yes i say 'meat is murder' (which is a no brainer anyway) but i really don't have any interest in debating the subject. much as i wouldn't have any interest in debating the benefits of concentration camps with a nazi. :)

    The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine - Abraham Lincoln

  • Quote from Zee

    rape is 'normal' if you're a rapist. what is 'normal' anyway?



    Please dont compaire my sister eating meat to a rapist, thats VERY different.

  • Quote from Rae

    Please dont compaire my sister eating meat to a rapist, thats VERY different.


    Actually, it wasn't a direct comparison between meat eating and rape but merely an example to show the meaninglessness of the word "normal" in debates about morality. It was a little extreme though :eek:

  • Quote from John

    Actually, it wasn't a direct comparison between meat eating and rape but merely an example to show the meaninglessness of the word "normal" in debates about morality. It was a little extreme though :eek:



    Yeah just a tad.

  • Quote from Rae

    Please dont compaire my sister eating meat to a rapist, thats VERY different.


    dude i never mentioned your sister! :p


    and i made no comparison between rape and eating meat. i was making a point about the subjectivity of the word 'normal'

    The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine - Abraham Lincoln

  • Quote from Zee

    dude i never mentioned your sister! :p

    and i made no comparison between rape and eating meat. i was making a point about the subjectivity of the word 'normal'



    PMed ya.

  • Quote from Zee

    er, okay, paul has split this thread so fair do's, but i wouldn't ordinarily have created a thread like this

    Fair comment, but it was heading off topic, so rather than stifle debate I thought it would be better to split it. I'll edit your first post so it doesn't look like you started the debate.

  • Quote from Zee

    i say 'meat is murder' :hippy:

    (split from previous thread "how do you pronounce omnivorous?")


    I disagree :D To each their own..... Personally I have nothing against veggies, I simply disagree with them and dont see veggieness as a universal.....which is a lot more tollerant than folks who equate eating meat with murder :whistle:


    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Paul

    We haven't even got the proper teeth for ripping flesh in the way that carnivores have. Our teeth are more like those of gorillas, and they are vegan.


    The teeth argument is a nonarguement either way. We dont have the teeth and claws of your archetypal mammalian predator but then we dont have the stomach to eat a lot of veggie food - instead, for both, we developed tools to enable us to eat them; fire, sharp knives, bowls, bows and arrows....


    Quote

    Why should I deny another creature its life simply because I like the taste of it?


    The question just as equally runs "why shouldnt I....?". Death, and "life feeding on life", is integral to the natural cycle in the world - its part of what binds us together in this world. To stand outside of that cycle is to set yourself apart from the world, and that usually carries with it a notion of transcendence, of superiority. Its the basis, for example, of christian religion (with its "lions laying down with lambs" and "eternal life in a high place" - the natural cycle ended and transcended). And that is compounded with the "dont do it because you enjoy it"...which again smacks a little of an echo of protestant dourness....


    Personally, I think its a matter of your own preferences; eat what you choose, someone will always disagree somewhere - to fruitarians, vegans are thieves.... :rolleyes: When folks start waving around "meat is murder" though, it generally starts to take an authoritarian edge - its no longer a matter of personal choice but has become an absolute morality; Meat eaters are not simply meat eaters ("different") but murderers ("wrong!").

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Meat may not be murder, but it can cause suffering in sentient beings. It also consumes lots of resources in its production.

    I eat meat, but not every day and I use a local butcher who has his own abertoir or I buy organic.

  • Quote from TheSoupdragon

    it can cause suffering in sentient beings.


    Yup. But is it suffering that is bad or is it the ammount of suffering that happens that matters?


    Quote

    It also consumes lots of resources in its production.


    Thats a question of numbers rather than of meat eating itself.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from Coyote

    I disagree :D To each their own..... Personally I have nothing against veggies, I simply disagree with them and dont see veggieness as a universal.....which is a lot more tollerant than folks who equate eating meat with murder :whistle:



    I agree
    I eat meat and i like it

  • Quote from Coyote

    Yup. But is it suffering that is bad or is it the ammount of suffering that happens that matters?

    Thats a question of numbers rather than of meat eating itself.



    Aha Mr Coyote, I now know better than to take you on in moral reasoning. So with my Utilitarian head on I'll say that the measure of the wrongness of the meat industry is the product of the number of animals it consumes and the degree to which their suffering is greater than that which would have occured had they not been farmed - but with my Hugh Fearnley-Wittingstall head on I'll suggest that the life of a well kept farm animal is actually better than an equivalent animal would have experienced int he wild, thus reducing the value of the second factor to zero.

    And with my Neo-Aristotlian head on I'd say that personal ecological responsibility is also a moral imperitive and so not consuming more than your fair share of the earth's bounty is important. Unless you're an Inuit that's very difficult if you eat a lot of meat.

  • I don't eat meat because at the moment a lot of cheap meat is heavily processed and really not that good for you, and also because I personally don't like the idea of the way animals are treated while they are growing and then when they're killed. The hock burns you see on chickens for example, where their legs haven't been able to hold their huge bodies up.


    Apart from the cramped conditions, extreme distress and the terrifying way they're treated, the amount of antibiotics and growth hormones they're fed is just not something that should be going into the human food chain.


    I would probably eat meat if the meat I ate was totally free range, not fed growth hormones to speed up the growing process (and therefore of course increase "productivity") and was killed quickly with as little distress to the animal as possible - rather than trussed up by it's legs on a moving conveyer belt before it's already dead. A really dignified way to die.

  • Quote from TheSoupdragon

    Aha Mr Coyote, I now know better than to take you on in moral reasoning.


    :madlol:


    Quote

    So with my Utilitarian head on I'll say that the measure of the wrongness of the meat industry is the product of the number of animals it consumes and the degree to which their suffering is greater than that which would have occured had they not been farmed - but with my Hugh Fearnley-Wittingstall head on I'll suggest that the life of a well kept farm animal is actually better than an equivalent animal would have experienced int he wild, thus reducing the value of the second factor to zero.


    I've never seen the Hobbesian basis of the social contract (that wild liberty, given up and replaced by governance, makes for a better life) applied retrospectively to farm animals before (such as by HFW) :D

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."