Arming the Police

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  • Hey... I have an idea that kind of combines the extendable baton and a tazer! A CATTLE PROD!!! =D


    That would work on dogs too!!! lol


    Failing that you could always lure a suspect onto a carefully disguised net and then nab them that way! hehe

  • Quote from James

    Interesting views, from an armed Officers perspective am all for it for new intakes and training and psych evaluations like I had to do but let me have a look at what people are saying and see if I have a counter/opinion.



    i've received training as a waiter, also cleaning wash rooms & toilets.
    once the training was complete i was left to get on with the job.
    about twenty seconds into doing these jobs for the first time it all got a bit dull and i couldn't be frig*ed following training guidelines.


    Arm the homeless




  • Very true and an Officer that not only fires BUT draws a weapon is taken off and then investigated as to why before allowed back on duty. A lot of Officers do not want guns either and this is why I said for new intakes, it would make it a lot harder for people to get in the police but worth it for the type of Officer you would have on the street in my opinion.

  • Yeah, I can't actually remember a gun being drawn on me but that's probably because by the time they pulled up in the car it was in a thorny bush... I did offer to get it out the bush but he said he'd shoot me if I touched it... he got his hands scratched up nicely!!! lol... can't say I didn't have his best interests at heart though. =P


    I had to sign the disclaimer thingmy what saying they can have the gun otherwise I woulda got a firearms offence on record... I'm now banned from holding firearms for life though which sucks balls, no fireworks:(

  • Quote from sunflower

    ok this is my stab.

    this country should be treated as a festival.
    you have your venue stweards your sit stweards your back stage stweards and your sit securaty.
    for your mundan tasks such as street arguements shop theft missing children stolen cars etc etc should be delt with by your venue stweards,site stweards. higher levels of crime such as drug dealers controled crime rings under age selling should be left to back stage. and your higher crime guns wepons pub brawls raps muggings mager scale fights should be left to the sit secraty. and if means need it then yes site securaty should be armed or have a selection of armed officers.



    A nice idea but Officers are getting killed going to 'routine' street arguments, shop thefts etc. The problem is you do not have THAT much time or the people power to say 'Ummmm yeah we will send a X team to that' we do that now and Officers are dying. How long you think before Officers, who are people too, think....fuck that!

  • Quote from LukeTheDude

    Hey... I have an idea that kind of combines the extendable baton and a tazer! A CATTLE PROD!!! =D

    That would work on dogs too!!! lol

    Failing that you could always lure a suspect onto a carefully disguised net and then nab them that way! hehe



    Will pass that one on to ACPO -LOL-

  • Quote from denhaag

    i've received training as a waiter, also cleaning wash rooms & toilets.
    once the training was complete i was left to get on with the job.
    about twenty seconds into doing these jobs for the first time it all got a bit dull and i couldn't be frig*ed following training guidelines.


    Arm the homeless



    You compare a bog washer training to live firearms? :eek:

    erm okay, well I get assessed every 3 months and have to take an exam at the end of it to re pass my training. I have to subject myself to random drug tests, I have to note down every time I pick up a gun and sign that I know the laws. Not sure that you have to sign for a tray of pizza or that you may have to use that pizza to take a life. Awsome responsiblity in cleaning a shitter as opposed to just shooting someone in the chest and knowing you have just ended the life of a person.

    Lets not be silly with the trival stuff hey?

    Thanks

  • Quote from LukeTheDude

    Yeah, I can't actually remember a gun being drawn on me but that's probably because by the time they pulled up in the car it was in a thorny bush... I did offer to get it out the bush but he said he'd shoot me if I touched it... he got his hands scratched up nicely!!! lol... can't say I didn't have his best interests at heart though. =P

    I had to sign the disclaimer thingmy what saying they can have the gun otherwise I woulda got a firearms offence on record... I'm now banned from holding firearms for life though which sucks balls, no fireworks:(



    In that case I guess they could see no gun and you looked like a deer in the headlights so there was no sign of a threat. Information received was the reason for an ARV (armed response vehicle) and if they draw on you then they have to explain why. Reasonable grounds and measurable account of force. Is NOT like the American Cops shows folks so please do not think that we run around waving a gun and shouting 'FREEZE MOTHERFUCKER'. :waves:

  • Quote from James

    In that case I guess they could see no gun and you looked like a deer in the headlights so there was no sign of a threat. Information received was the reason for an ARV (armed response vehicle) and if they draw on you then they have to explain why. Reasonable grounds and measurable account of force. Is NOT like the American Cops shows folks so please do not think that we run around waving a gun and shouting 'FREEZE MOTHERFUCKER'. :waves:


    But you do get to play with pretty flashing lights and sirens. :( I want some on my Nissan. lol


    Anyway, paint... stop distracting meeeeeeeeee (I blame everyone except me for my laziness... it's fun:))

  • Quote from James

    Brazillian guy was NOT going about his normal day and was told to stop by armed officers, he was not shot 15 times either and Police

    I thought it was quite well accepted now that the original police claims were false, that Jean Charles De Menezes was not wearing bulky clothing, did not vault the barrier and was not shouted at to stop. OK he was shot 8-11 times with dum-dum bullets (these create worse wounds than normal rounds), but what's another few bullets when you're already dead?

    Quote

    ... emerged in the leaked documents that early allegations that he was running away from police at the time of the shooting were untrue and that he appeared unaware that he was being followed.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/atta…y/0,16132,1550565,00.html


    Quote

    The report also reveals how the victim was totally unaware that he was being followed, that there was no police chase and that he did nothing to arouse suspicion.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag…id=359494&in_page_id=1770

    Quote

    Police had initially said that Mr de Menezes had refused to respond to police shouts and, dressed in a heavy winter coat, had leapt over the turnstile before running onto a train.

    It was later revealed that he was wearing a denim jacket and had walked through the turnstile and onto the train.

    Now the witness statement obtained by The Guardian newspaper, said 11 shots were heard during a 30-second spell.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…05/08/26/ixportaltop.html


    Quote from James

    But lets say that the mistake, and it was a tragic one, had gone the other way and the Officers had CS. They guy would still of got the bomb off and how many people would be dead then. In that case the team was under EXTREME pressure of bombs already going off all over London the public they protect dying!

    While I can see your point that doesn't really excuse the following from one of the above articles:

    Quote

    The officer should have taken video footage which would have helped identify the suspect to colleagues. But he was relieving himself at the time and could not switch on the camera.

    this is hardly indicative of 'extreme pressure' and actually looks more like slovenly procedure - Surely something this serious would have had more than one person manning the CCTV? Also, what really happened to raise suspicions and if it was the wrong guy, then who was the "right guy"?

    My problem with all of this is that nobody has ever been fully held accountable, and the police still say that the "shoot to kill" policy is the best way forwards - It's almost like we're being moulded to accept summary execution (for that is what it was) as a reasonable price to pay for safety.

    Then we have other cases of people being shot on false intelligence - E.G. Harry Stanley, Stephen Waldorf, James Ashley etc.

    To me, anyone shot wrongly by those trusted to protect us, is inexcusable and needs to be sorted out properly before they even consider handing out more weapons.

  • Hi Paul,

    You have picked bits from the paper, The Guardian being the main one that was reported by the IPCC that the document that they had was NOT the report.

    Media reports on armed police and pictures say a thousand words. Please watch and give your opinions by all means.

    http://www.sky.com/skynews/vid…31200-co19_p16891,00.html


    http://www.sky.com/skynews/vid…31200-co19_p16940,00.html


    http://www.sky.com/skynews/vid…00-co19wed_p17007,00.html


    http://www.sky.com/skynews/vid…31200-C019_p17083,00.html

    You think we can deal with that with pepper spray and a batton?





    http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/pr150606_leak.htm

    I have not read the complete IPCC report as yet. As I was talking about arming the police and not a specific case that went wrong.

    Quote

    this is hardly indicative of 'extreme pressure' and actually looks more like slovenly procedure - Surely something this serious would have had more than one person manning the CCTV? Also, what really happened to raise suspicions and if it was the wrong guy, then who was the "right guy"?



    That is taken out of time from and the 'extreme pressure' would be at the point of contact not the surviellance. What something 'looks like' and what something is is not always the same.

    Perhaps the thing is we need more Officers so that Commanders are not working double shifts to try and cover the massive amount of intelligence that is out there.

    Quote


    To me, anyone shot wrongly by those trusted to protect us, is inexcusable and needs to be sorted out properly before they even consider handing out more weapons.



    Anyone that shoots or even draws a weapon is taken off duty and investigated.

    This to me reads not so much a look at why the Police should not be armed to deal with the increase in violent crime and the prevention of deaths to civilians and officers but a focus on an incident that is high profile that went wrong.

    We do not know the full report as yet and looking at 'suspect reports' and a case of a wrong shooting or shootings still does not justify not arming the Police to deal with the very real threat of terrorism and violent crime, at present resulting in death of Officers and the public.

  • James, if we had more effective non-lethal weaponry then would you be happy to see that given to standard officers instead of lethal weaponry? Or do you believe that lethal weaponry is a necessity for the safety of the police?

  • Quote from John

    James, if we had more effective non-lethal weaponry then would you be happy to see that given to standard officers instead of lethal weaponry? Or do you believe that lethal weaponry is a necessity for the safety of the police?



    Hi John,

    In an ideal world I would love there to be no need for Police but there is. In a situation that we had effective less than lethal options and we do but the draw back is that there is no less than lethal option that does not have a draw back and the time scale you get in some situations is just not enough.

    The reason I think the Police should have this option is also not just about Coppers not getting killed but being able to protect the public. Firearms in cities are more and more common and we must be able to combat this threat to society. The threat of terrorism has changed in a seriously radical way also. No longer is deterrent of being caught any good, as was with PIRA as the Jihad use suicide bombers who do not care about being caught at all.

    Many European counties have armed police as standard and there has not been an issue. People seem to imagine America when they think about UK Police armed and it is just not the case. To explain to someone that say lives in a nice area in the subs about the threats we deal with and then say 'gun' think OMG we are going to be like LA and NY! France, Germany and Austria to name a few are ALL armed. I love the idea of the chubby community copper on the bike saying good morning to Mrs Jones but we must equipe Officers with the tools and the TRAINING to deal with the actual threats that they may come across.

    SO19 etc is fine ..... when you KNOW or are told they have a firearm but just walking around with a stick and pepper spray in London is just plain dangerous. I can understand that people may think to the extreme case senario of 'death by cop' and a sort of slipped in martial law but what else do you do when people are being killed?

  • Quote from James


    The reason I think the Police should have this option is also not just about Coppers not getting killed but being able to protect the public.


    Really? But isnt killing a policeman likely to carry a stricter punishment?


    Quote

    Firearms in cities are more and more common and we must be able to combat this threat to society.


    Good to see those draconian post-dunblane laws are working so well :rolleyes:


    Quote

    I can understand that people may think to the extreme case senario of 'death by cop' and a sort of slipped in martial law but what else do you do when people are being killed?


    There comes a time when the force you use causes more harm than good, or at least does not actually make people any safer...

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote

    Really? But isnt killing a policeman likely to carry a stricter punishment?



    Yes really, hence the 'I think' and I imagine so as Police Officers are the ones that go that actually get in harms way to protect you.

    Quote


    Good to see those draconian post-dunblane laws are working so well :rolleyes:



    Stick a stab vest on, get a baton and pepper spray and see if the sarcastic none lethal option works any better for you when you get stabbed :rolleyes:

    Quote


    There comes a time when the force you use causes more harm than good, or at least does not actually make people any safer...



    There does and we are far from that stage


    :waves:

  • Quote from James

    If he knew that all police had a gun then maybe people would be less inclined to show something shaped like a gun. I have worked in America and Austria (Austian Police have a Glock sidearm as a matter of course) and they run it very well and people know not to wave gun shaped objects.


    Sorry James..but what a cop out (excuse the pun!) How long have the police been armed for in the u.k? Not as long as the police forces in the places you mention.... so bearing that in mind, do you not think that people living in those societies are more used to it, and therefore would be a touch wiser than us here in the U.K... it takes people a while to get used to these things... And also do you think that guy's family feel the same way as you do... That guy had kids...who thanks to heavy handness from you lot are now living WITHOUT their dad... Would YOU still have the same attitude if YOUR dad had been shot for holding a LIGHTER!!!! :mad:

    Quote from james

    Naked guy am not sure on and will look that up in my own records of events.


    Naked guy in hasting.. supposedly wanted for murder and drug crimes... COMPLETELY INNOCENT!!!!! Which to my mind is enough argument for NOT arming the police...who seem to forget that they like the rest of us are only fooking human...and make fooking mistakes... and unfortunately once you've fooking shot someone and killed them it is too late to say I'm sorry...and btw this guy's family weren't even compensated...and the officers who MURDERED him are still on the force... talk about double standards! :rolleyes:


    Yes I do understand that the police do a dangerous job... but it is one they signed up for. It could be argued that nurses are also in a dangerous job... but do they feel the need to be armed!

  • Quote from James

    Yes really, hence the 'I think' and I imagine so as Police Officers are the ones that go that actually get in harms way to protect you.


    Nope, the plod are the ones who will punish you if yourself choose to do so (get in harms way for another) :rolleyes:


    Quote


    Stick a stab vest on, get a baton and pepper spray and see if the sarcastic none lethal option works any better for you when you get stabbed :rolleyes:


    Dont fucking restrict legal and responsible self-armament, when you lot call out for your own guns, and dont bleat on about how the crims have guns....:rolleyes:


    The laws are draconian (not that they ever allowed guns for self-defence as a cause for ownership but meh thats just words) and they kept the crims armed...duh!


    Quote


    There does and we are far from that stage

    :waves:


    I think you would find some disagreement as to the distance.....

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."

  • Quote from tekno

    Sorry James..but what a cop out (excuse the pun!) How long have the police been armed for in the u.k? Not as long as the police forces in the places you mention.... so bearing that in mind, do you not think that people living in those societies are more used to it, and therefore would be a touch wiser than us here in the U.K... it takes people a while to get used to these things... And also do you think that guy's family feel the same way as you do... That guy had kids...who thanks to heavy handness from you lot are now living WITHOUT their dad... Would YOU still have the same attitude if YOUR dad had been shot for holding a LIGHTER!!!! :mad:


    Naked guy in hasting.. supposedly wanted for murder and drug crimes... COMPLETELY INNOCENT!!!!! Which to my mind is enough argument for NOT arming the police...who seem to forget that they like the rest of us are only fooking human...and make fooking mistakes... and unfortunately once you've fooking shot someone and killed them it is too late to say I'm sorry...and btw this guy's family weren't even compensated...and the officers who MURDERED him are still on the force... talk about double standards! :rolleyes:

    Yes I do understand that the police do a dangerous job... but it is one they signed up for. It could be argued that nurses are also in a dangerous job... but do they feel the need to be armed!



    No need to apologise, you live in a country of free speach. Lets have a look then.

    No idea off the top of my head how long they have been armed for to be honest but can find out.

    I don't see the argument for being wiser and holding a gun shaped object at a Police Officer. You mean it is okay to do that if they are not armed?

    Would I still have the attitude that I have if my Dad was shot by armed police for waving a gun shaped object, I would be devistated beyond words but yes I would. Do i still the attitude for the Officers that got killed and now have children WITHOUT parents because some crack head stabbed them to DEATH, yeah I would then and do now also.

    Naken guy in Hastings, as I said I will look that up myself and have not done so as yet. Also it cannot be murder if it was not found to be an illegal killing no matter how big the font.

    It could not be argued that nurses have a dangerous job and should be armed as they did not sign up to activly go into dangerous and life threatening situations to protect others. They also have Police stationed at some hospitals around the country for the very need to protect them.

    But it is the one they signed up for...cop out arguement. YOU need the Police and the Military to have the freedom that you enjoy. I doubt you would get the same response if you tried to argue with the Taliban or a gun wielding crack head.



  • Don't understand what you are saying in the first line.

    I will bleat all I wish but thanks for the request.

    You will find disagreeement in almost everything you say if you have a big enough audiance.

    So you think no Police should be armed? What do you propose we do about armed crime and terrorist threats then?

  • Quote from James

    Don't understand what you are saying in the first line.


    1, I recall a bunch of coppers at a recent armed seige staying well out of harms way
    but apart from that...
    2, A copper may choose to put himself in harms way but why is the punishment for killing a copper stricter than for killing anyone a neighbour who puts themselves in harms way - indeed the neighbour is often punished for doing such :rolleyes:

    Quote


    So you think no Police should be armed? What do you propose we do about armed crime and terrorist threats then?


    Terrorist threats are not solved by armed police.


    Crims have remained armed despite plod supported draconian post-dunlane gun laws - in fact, as you argue yourself, gun crime is on the increase.


    I've known a lot of coppers and 99% of em I wouldnt trust with a spud gun, never mind an H&K.... Arrogance and guns are a dangerous mix.

    "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."



  • Why do people get a stronger sentence for killing a Police Officer in the line of duty.

    There is already provision for someone convicted of murdering a Police Officer in the line of duty to receive a greater tarrif on their life sentence than for the murder of a non Police officer.

    Schedule 21 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 provides a minimum starting point of 30 years as the tarrif for the life sentence.

    I think we have to realise that unlike the general public who are murdered, often by people they know (domestic murders/crimes of passion), police officers are generally murdered by persons carrying out crimes or acts for which the police have been tasked to prevent or stop.

    The point I’m trying to make is that, the police are expected to go towards danger to deal with it on behalf of the public who are often fleeing it. When a police officer is murdered in thoes circumstances then the killer(s) should be treated more harshly.

    The police are almost always going to find themselves between the killers and the public and will therefore be the frequent target for gun or knife attacks.

    Terrorist threats are not solved by armed Police?

    Well that is just plain incorrect from an Anti Terrorism Firearms Officer, I am privy to far more intelligence than you and I know for a fact that we are needed as part of the Security / Intelligence family. Without us you have no last line of defence, without us you have no powered deterent. Writing a stiff letter to Osama and the boys is just not going to cut it.

    Gun crime is on the increase because of a lack of armed Officers, without them it would be even worse. Did you watch the SO19 front line clips?

    Well the 99% is your opinion and you are allowed that, the government does trust them but then I do not think you trust them either anyway.

    Am still waiting to hear your options of dealing with gun crime, violent attacks and terrorism without armed Police.

  • Quote from James

    As an Anti Terrorism Firearms Officer, I am privy to far more intelligence than you and I know for a fact that we are needed as part of the Security / Intelligence family. Without us you have no last line of defence, without us you have no powered deterent.

    Apart from the army, of course. :whistle:


    On the bright side, you'd have a better chance of making it onto the tube alive if you were running a little late. :harhar:


  • Quote from Atomik

    Apart from the army, of course. :whistle:

    On the bright side, you'd have a better chance of making it onto the tube alive if you were running a little late. :harhar:



    Heya Stu! :waves:

    The Army is not last line in the Intell world as that would mean martial law. The army or MI6 is a different matter than the 'troops' but the last line in operations against terrorism is the AFO (Authorised Firearms Officer).

    Yeah you would make it alive on the tube at Waterloo and get blow up at Paddington with the rest of the travellers :harhar:

  • Quote from James

    Heya Stu! :waves:

    The Army is not last line in the Intell world as that would mean martial law. The army or MI6 is a different matter than the 'troops' but the last line in operations against terrorism is the AFO (Authorised Firearms Officer).

    However, if you didn't have armed police, troops would be deployed.

    Quote

    bit of dark humour is always welcome. by the way 'WE' have your address, stay put and 'WE' will be round to pick you up. :reddevil:

    Unlike most paranoid hippies, I don't worry about that kinda shit coz I'm not deluded enough to think that I'm important enough to even register on the radar. ;)

  • Quote from Atomik

    However, if you didn't have armed police, troops would be deployed.

    Unlike most paranoid hippies, I don't worry about that kinda shit coz I'm not deluded enough to think that I'm important enough to even register on the radar. ;)



    Yes they would and they work on another set of rules than the Police for the use of a firearm. Thank god we have armed police is all I can say to that being also an ex soldier!!

    Your kidding?!?! We have an entire branch set up for you, why you got me so much overtime last month that I bought a new car! :p

  • Quote from James

    Yes they would and they work on another set of rules than the Police for the use of a firearm. Thank god we have armed police is all I can say to that being also an ex soldier!!

    I have to agree. Armed dibble are definitely an improvement on giving squaddies the run of the streets.

    Quote

    Your kidding?!?! We have an entire branch set up for you, why you got me so much overtime last month that I bought a new car! :p

    :whistle:


  • Needs a sunroof...am 6'2"!! 6'6" in heels but what I do on my time off is my own business.

    God yes!! to the army on the streets, there was a film with Bruce Willis but I forget the name about that very thing. Rather dramatic but not far from what I would see happening with Squaddie Jones, a SA80 and a 'that's the enemy' policy.

    Having armed Police is crap but I feel it is a needed evil and risk. I do not like having a government but then again someone has to run shit and I do not have any better idea of how to do it.

    If anyone has a brainwave on how to deal with gun / violent crime and terrorism without Armed Police am all ears!! Not that I make much odds as a voice to Government policy!