Racism or not?

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  • Quote from John

    Thing is, it seems C4 are too stupid to understand the concept that offence is caused by intent not by the actual words used...



    I dunno..... C4 did the right thing in removing the girl imo, regardless of whether they realised it wasn't racist attack (i'm sure they knew it wasn't)

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    I dunno..... C4 did the right thing in removing the girl imo, regardless of whether they realised it wasn't racist attack (i'm sure they knew it wasn't)


    Why? It certainly wasn't malicious and they span out the entire thing to promote maximum outrage in "do-gooders". Really, they turned something trivial into a publicity stunt. No doubt it was good for their viewing figures but from any other perspective? Somewhat unethical, I feel, considering that the woman in question will probably suffer quite a lot of social stigma surrounding the event.

  • Quote from John

    Why? It certainly wasn't malicious and they span out the entire thing to promote maximum outrage in "do-gooders". Really, they turned something trivial into a publicity stunt. No doubt it was good for their viewing figures but from any other perspective? Somewhat unethical, I feel, considering that the woman in question will probably suffer quite a lot of social stigma surrounding the event.



    i said right thing in removing her... not in then putting it on air anyway.

    after the amount of explosion caused after celebrity big bro?! she must've seen it. she knew she was on camera. C4 cudn't let her get away with that after being accused of not acting before.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    i said right thing in removing her... not in then putting it on air anyway.

    after the amount of explosion caused after celebrity big bro?! she must've seen it. she knew she was on camera. C4 cudn't let her get away with that after being accused of not acting before.


    But by kicking her out they sent out the wrong message, in my opinion. She was an idiot, not a rascist. A reprimand would've been far more suitable.

  • i don't think anyone thinks she's a racist.
    But using possibly offensive and definitely contraversial language on public TV... if BB doesn't tolerate that (understandably, after the celeb BB) they're hardly sending out the wrong message.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Doesnt it kind of smell 'staged' tho,like bb were waitin to jump on anythin to 'redeem' themselves after the last show?-although personally i didnt think wot i read about Jade was racist either,just nasty the way fights get sometimes.
    Is it a generation thing?The bb girl was young and i kno my own and friends teens use derogetory terms for everyone but no malice is intended and theyre surprised wen its pointed out some people might be offended.Surely its makin a fuss about words that gives them power?

  • Quote from medusa

    Doesnt it kind of smell 'staged' tho,like bb were waitin to jump on anythin to 'redeem' themselves after the last show?-although personally i didnt think wot i read about Jade was racist either,just nasty the way fights get sometimes.
    Is it a generation thing?The bb girl was young and i kno my own and friends teens use derogetory terms for everyone but no malice is intended and theyre surprised wen its pointed out some people might be offended.Surely its makin a fuss about words that gives them power?

    'Xactly my point. :thumbup:

  • Quote from medusa

    Doesnt it kind of smell 'staged' tho,like bb were waitin to jump on anythin to 'redeem' themselves after the last show?-although personally i didnt think wot i read about Jade was racist either,just nasty the way fights get sometimes.



    I waasn't disputing that!

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • It appears to me that people don't know what racism is. Be aware that it is not confined to fascists and does not even require hate. All you need to create is an awareness of superiority over other races in your mind, the direspectful language is already in place for you to use, and away you go.
    One used to have to hide racism, unless one was a full-blown bully, but now people will argue your right to display rascist intent as long as you say "I don't really mean it".

    Lets get the proportionality regarding use of the N right. A dozen black american pop-stars using the word on a couple of albums does not mean that the rest of the world is suddenly easy with the white man using it, and it in no way gives us authority to adopt it either. Nor does it's apparent adoption by white trash either give an excuse those who should be better educated.

  • Quote from Dapablo

    It appears to me that people don't know what racism is.



    please, do tell us?

    In addition, the N word has been used by more an a few rappers on a COUPLE of releases.
    the word is everywhere in US entertainment,
    thats entertainment (music,films, literature,)
    therefore imported here as cool.

  • Quote from denhaag

    please, do tell us?

    I did, duh.

    Quote

    In addition, the N word has been used by more an a few rappers on a COUPLE of releases.
    the word is everywhere in US entertainment,
    thats entertainment (music,films, literature,)
    therefore imported here as cool.

    Now its not going to be everywhere either is it ?

    You may be familiar with this extra content but that doesn't mean the majority will be, I'd even propose that the majority have very little to do with rap culture. Makes no difference if some want to think it cool does it ?

  • Big Brother, oh god, don't get me started on that excuse for a programme, it drives me insane.
    I bought a paper for the first time in a while yesterday and the first 8 pages were all about the big brother racism arguments and how some girl from it was in a film. wow, lol.


    I think they take everything too far. Tis the girl's own fault for mentioning the 'n' word as they were all warned about using language such as that whether it was serious or a joke.

  • Quote from psy-kwaai

    People need to lighten up and have a laugh at racism...IMO...it's all to serious....

    Says the white boy

    Quote

    it's like alot of people just sit around waiting for a WORD to be said to that they can make an ISSUE.

    or its absolutely nothing like that at all.

  • Quote from Dapablo

    it is not confined to fascists and does not even require hate. All you need to create is an awareness of superiority over other races in your mind


    If it doesn't involve hate and is in your mind then I don't see a problem with it. How can something that someone believes be morally wrong unless they then act on it. Racism is only a problem when innocent people are subjected to discrimination or abuse simply because of their colour so far as I can tell.


    Of course I don't agree with racist ideas - in fact I think it's bloody stupid to think you're better than a man of colour, but if someone wants to hold those opinions I say let them. It is human nature to fear the alien, and by forbidding people to even express their opinions they will only become more self assured and driven underground.


    Yes, the term "Nigger" is very disrespectful - but what if you want to disrespect someone? Surely any kind of freedom of speech must include the freedom to offend, in theory at least? The word "cunt" is disrespectful too, as are any number of words – but should we refrain from using them if we lose our tempers, and why should “da n-word” be in a special category all of its own?


    Especially given the clearly non-racist use of the word, how many of us would care if someone called them a cunt? I may be a little offended it was a serious, but if it was meant in jest what possible reason would I have to break down in tears and sob?


    To criminalise a word is not only counter productive, but quite illiberal. Yet we live in a world where the word may as well have been criminalised. Gordon Ramsey storms around the kitchen in a flurry of fuck, but if he were to let a racial slur pass his lips.... bang... demonised. In our more mundane everyday lives if we were attacked and uttered a racial slur I wonder how it would be dealt with...


    Quote from Dapablo

    One used to have to hide racism, unless one was a full-blown bully, but now people will argue your right to display racist intent as long as you say "I don't really mean it".


    From my understanding there was a time when racism was commonplace, then frowned upon and we now arrive in a period of full blown hysteria. People not only feel the need to hide any genuine racism, but hide anything that might possibly be interpreted to sound a little like a racist word. Niggardly is the classic example of this – a perfectly valid word with different etymological roots to what we must now call “the N-word”. However because it Sounds a little like a racial slur a few high profile cases have cropped up where offence has been taken. Are “Duck”, “Baccy” and “Runt” banned too? You’re in an insane position where your intention was in no way racist, the word was in no way racist and yet people have taken offence - It’s enough to make me want to snigger... oh wait...!

    Quote from Dapablo

    Says the white boy


    The only racism I see there is an assumption that black people understand in a way no white could ever. Not to mention being unable to say a word because of my colour...

  • Well said, Cybw. People seem unable to distinguish between prejudice and discrimination. Some how it is now immoral for people to express their views unless they're sufficiently in line with the majority view. We don't need thought police - society is self-regulating via hysterics.

  • Quote from John

    Well said, Cybw. People seem unable to distinguish between prejudice and discrimination.


    Yeap prejudice can't be helped, everyone does it. You could be pre-judged on what clothes you wear or the length of your hair. Prejudging (prejudice) is automatic and can't be helped. Discriminating, as in making decisions based on your prejudice is bad of course, and can be prevented.

    "Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realise that we can not eat money" - 19th Century Cree Indian.

  • Quote from Cybw

    IYes, the term "Nigger" is very disrespectful - but what if you want to disrespect someone? Surely any kind of freedom of speech must include the freedom to offend, in theory at least? The word "cunt" is disrespectful too, as are any number of words – but should we refrain from using them if we lose our tempers, and why should “da n-word” be in a special category all of its own?

    Especially given the clearly non-racist use of the word, how many of us would care if someone called them a cunt? I may be a little offended it was a serious, but if it was meant in jest what possible reason would I have to break down in tears and sob?



    how can you compare being called a cunt with being called a nigger?!

    this is the same as the "reclaim the swastika" thing - nigger is derived from negro and basically just means black, but because of the thinking that was behind it, it's now considered racist.

    of course you have the "freedom of speech" to use the word, just like you have the freedom to go into Israel brandishing a swastika.

    it's not for you to decide whether people should or shouldn't be offended by it, but I think it's common courtesy to respect other people's feelings enough to not use it, without having a tantrum about lack of freedom of speech.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from psy-kwaai

    YAWNNNNNNNN got over it! and stop proving my point....:calmdown: :harhar:
    RACIST!...surely my colour has nothing to do with it...and why is racism always only AGAINST black people?.....I was forced from my home country due to racism...


    What by the indginous people who had their land taken from them by force, by WHITE imperalists... Lived under a system that took their right to education/food/land taken away from them...


    Is that racism or reclamation....


    As for that girl using the N word on BB.... ignorance breeds contempt. Just because a few black men use the term to each other it doesn't mean that all of the black men and women who have fought for equality are wrong...:rolleyes:


    How would you guys like it if things about yourself, like for instance being overwieght or short, you know the things that could make you feel infereior, were used against you?

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    how can you compare being called a cunt with being called a nigger?!

    Well, let me see, they're both words that are generally intended to cause offence. In fact, considering that nigger has been "reclaimed" you could probably make a pretty good argument that it is less offensive than cunt.

    Quote


    this is the same as the "reclaim the swastika" thing - nigger is derived from negro and basically just means black, but because of the thinking that was behind it, it's now considered racist.

    That is the point really; without rascist intent, it should just be another word. In this case, it clearly wasn't meant in a rascist sense so... should it be censored regardless? If you censor anything that could be construed as rascist then you'll end up with some pretty stupid scenarios :rolleyes:

    Quote


    it's not for you to decide whether people should or shouldn't be offended by it, but I think it's common courtesy to respect other people's feelings enough to not use it, without having a tantrum about lack of freedom of speech.

    You would have a good point here - if it wasn't for the fact that C4 specifically portrayed it in a way designed to cause maximum offence and then kicked her out to show what wonderful people they are. In other words, they turned something that should've been quite meaningless into a publicity stunt. If nigger was being put up on billboards or something then I agree; it is pretty disrespectful to people who're likely to be offended but I feel that this wasn't the case in this particular incident.

  • Quote from John

    considering that nigger has been "reclaimed"



    it has? says who?


    Quote

    That is the point really; without rascist intent, it should just be another word. In this case, it clearly wasn't meant in a rascist sense so... should it be censored regardless? If you censor anything that could be construed as rascist then you'll end up with some pretty stupid scenarios :rolleyes:



    On TV I think so. What if a kid watched that, learnt the word, + repeated it.. thought it was ok to use it normally.

    It should just be another word, but to some people it isn't.


    Quote


    You would have a good point here - if it wasn't for the fact that C4 specifically portrayed it in a way designed to cause maximum offence and then kicked her out to show what wonderful people they are. In other words, they turned something that should've been quite meaningless into a publicity stunt. If nigger was being put up on billboards or something then I agree; it is pretty disrespectful to people who're likely to be offended but I feel that this wasn't the case in this particular incident



    I wasn't talking about BB. I was responding to Cybw's disillusion that not using racial slurs = illiberal.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • :thumbup: Nice one Elfie... I found it hard getting my head around the using racist slurs as a sign of societal liberalism angle too... I thought it would've been the reverse..

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    it has? says who?

    Hey, I did use "" ... I'm not entirely convinced of it myself. Not a word I'd use myself so I can't say I know enough to judge.
    EDIT: Scrap that, it was defined as "reclaimed" in the first post!

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    On TV I think so. What if a kid watched that, learnt the word, + repeated it.. thought it was ok to use it normally.

    It should just be another word, but to some people it isn't.

    yeah but... you can say exactly the same for words like "cunt". Really, BB is known to be foul mouthed and therefore parents should be wary about letting their children watch it. Also, it could've been "bleeped out" rather than broadcast... but then, of course, C4 wouldn't have got all this wonderful publicity :rolleyes:

    Quote


    I wasn't talking about BB. I was responding to Cybw's disillusion that not using racial slurs = illiberal.

    Saying that you can't use a specific word IS illiberal. Sure, use of that word may be against common courtesy... but that doesn't mean you should forbid it 'cause its naughty :eek:

  • well if you aint allowed to say the N word then you shouldnt be allowed to call the irish Mick or the scottish jock. In my opinion the racists are the ones who say its one rule for whites and one rules for blacks instead of just accepting we are all the same.

  • Quote from John


    EDIT: Scrap that, it was defined as "reclaimed" in the first post!



    it was a question not a statement. and even if it had been a statement, that doesn't make it a fact.

    But I don't know what you're point is there anyway so I can't exactly dispute it. ;)


    Quote

    yeah but... you can say exactly the same for words like "cunt". Really, BB is known to be foul mouthed and therefore parents should be wary about letting their children watch it. Also, it could've been "bleeped out" rather than broadcast... but then, of course, C4 wouldn't have got all this wonderful publicity :rolleyes:



    I think racism, whether ignorant or not, is worse than a general insult (such as 'cunt')
    If I had a child I would rather it's school rang me up to complain it had called another child a cunt, than a nigger.

    I didn't know BB was particularly foul-mouthed, because I've not watched it, but if you think we live in a society where parents have unlimited control over what their kids watch.. :eek:



    Quote


    Saying that you can't use a specific word IS illiberal. Sure, use of that word may be against common courtesy... but that doesn't mean you should forbid it 'cause its naughty :eek:



    I suppose we should scrap a law system and hope everyone refrains from being naughty merely because it's against common courtesy then.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting

  • Quote from elfqueenofrohan

    it was a question not a statement. and even if it had been a statement, that doesn't make it a fact.

    But I don't know what you're point is there anyway so I can't exactly dispute it. ;)

    In all honesty, I was just illustrating that the two can be compared. I think that discussion has dragged this thread sufficiently off-topic for now so lets leave it at that...


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    I think racism, whether ignorant or not, is worse than a general insult (such as 'cunt')
    If I had a child I would rather it's school rang me up to complain it had called another child a cunt, than a nigger.

    Why? They're both rude words. The only issue is social stigma. At the end of the day, the intention is to offend and when you're discussing what word is right to use offensively and what word isn't then it's got more than a little stupid. However, this discussion is off-topic as nigger wasn't even used in an offensive way in the example specified (ie BB) so it's kinda irrelevant :rolleyes:

    Quote



    I didn't know BB was particularly foul-mouthed, because I've not watched it, but if you think we live in a society where parents have unlimited control over what their kids watch.. :eek:

    Personally, I don't think kids should be watching TV. End of. So... ;)



    Quote


    I suppose we should scrap a law system and hope everyone refrains from being naughty merely because it's against common courtesy then.

    If the worst thing people ever did to each other was throw insults... then sure ;)

  • Quote from John


    Personally, I don't think kids should be watching TV. End of. So... ;)



    Oh I see. Because you don't think they should watch it, it's okay for us to put whatever shit on we like? :rolleyes:




    Quote


    Why? They're both rude words. The only issue is social stigma. At the end of the day, the intention is to offend and when you're discussing what word is right to use offensively and what word isn't then it's got more than a little stupid. However, this discussion is off-topic as nigger wasn't even used in an offensive way in the example specified (ie BB) so it's kinda irrelevant :rolleyes:



    social stigma isn't an "only issue".
    It's huge.
    It's ruined many people's lives..... I do not think you should dismiss it...
    you may disagree with it. but that doesn't make it something to disregard.

    The thing is, people do not know whether you mean to be offensive.
    If you're going to use a racist word you must have an inkling of an idea that someone might mistake it as offensive - and to some people it's offensive even when the people using it have no idea what it means.

    The whole point of this discussion was to open this debate up more - which is what C4 wanted to do (yes along with getting more publicity).
    It's apparently such a taboo we cannot even discuss it anymore. But it is very relevant because what BB has proved is that people in UK ignorantly use words which, because they can't comprehend them as offensive, must not be able to offend someone else.

    we reenact Noah's ancient drama, but in reverse, like a film running backwards, the animals exiting