Nootropics / smart drugs / cognitive enhancers

  • Yep, but not quite in the way you think. Pramiracetam is a synthetic derivative of Piracetam. It's one of the racetam family of nootropics.
    A while back UCB Pharma had the brilliant idea :eek: of using piracetam as a base for antiepileptic drugs. They all bind to synaptic vesicle protein 2A. 2 are out and one is in the pipeline.


    The first one out, levetiracetam, gave you far less cognitive issues than many other AED's can do. In fact some people that have compared it to a magic bullet for controlling their epilepsy, particularly if it is refractory.


    However, other people find it makes them paranoid, prone to psychosis, depressed, prone to mood swings, obsessive and there is the chance of suicidal ideation.


    Guess which one I was?


    I was on the freaking thing for just over a year. Thinking more clearly wasn't that great when you were thinking of ways to kill yourself.


    The analog Brivaracetam, well same thing - very, very clear-headed and focused.
    Before you think, 'Ah but, neurological condition, bit of a downer to even start from', I've been stuck on god knows what over the years and for some reason, my memory and cognition are fine. Psychology lot tested them enough when we needed guinea pigs for each others assessments. I'm absolutely terrified that one day I will wake up and my memory will be like a rifled filing cabinet as I have heard described.
    Anyway, Brivaracetam, crap side effects. But again very clear head while you consider your sore back, lack of appetite, bloody sore head, insomnia, constipation, increasing photosensitivity....


    Found this, it might be quite interesting


    https://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v3/n12/full/nrn984.html


    Found this too, I'd be really interested to read this, as well - BMJ can be bl**dy irritating at times. The university firewall blocks me from getting it by sneaky means but I can get it in full at home if you want a copy? Pramiracetam came up in the search details even if it isn't mentioned directly in the abstract.


    http://jramc.bmj.com/content/e…7/08/22/jramc-2016-000752


    Basically, even if there is anyone reporting 'little or no side effects', I would be skeptical.


    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com…-4604.1985.tb02841.x/epdf


    OK, what were the ones that were classed as 'insignificant'? On a sample of only 12, and all males? you're having a laugh.


    I would say go with a tried and tested method that even the army seem to have approved of


    ' Generally, caffeine provided an improvement in performance compared with placebo on 5/7 reported cognitive outcomes,'

  • Ahhh levetiracetam..... Thank you!!!!
    Guess which side effects I have!! No wonder I feel like shit, the mood swings are horrendous, being suicidal for no reason is awful ! I've driven myself nuts, going through every medical condition trying to find out, wtf is wrong with me :(
    My neurologist will be getting told!

  • At one point my IQ was recorded at 146 (typically I score around 140), but I seriously lack focus at times, which means my brain is often as good as a plate of sentient jelly trying to force itself through a straw. At other times I have too much focus, but it's never on the important stuff.


    I don't want anything to get me off - mood altering / recreational drugs have no interest to me at all - but I do like the idea of opening up some neural pathways and doing some of that mind hacking schizz.

  • At one point my IQ was recorded at 146 (typically I score around 140), but I seriously lack focus at times, which means my brain is often as good as a plate of sentient jelly trying to force itself through a straw. At other times I have too much focus, but it's never on the important stuff.


    I don't want anything to get me off - mood altering / recreational drugs have no interest to me at all - but I do like the idea of opening up some neural pathways and doing some of that mind hacking schizz.


    The link I posted in as an afterthought and the Army one may be the best.


    My husband has been scored at genius level IQ. he lacks focus on anything that isn't mechanical/electronic/system related - usually broken, hard to describe I don't think like him. I just hand him broken stuff and he always gets it working again.


    Anything else, concentration span of a goldfish, he gets bored easily - broken stuff, never see him for ages.


    Is your lack of focus specific or just general at times. I loose focus when I'm upset. Other times I can focus to the exclusion of all else

  • Ahhh levetiracetam..... Thank you!!!!
    Guess which side effects I have!! No wonder I feel like shit, the mood swings are horrendous, being suicidal for no reason is awful ! I've driven myself nuts, going through every medical condition trying to find out, wtf is wrong with me :(
    My neurologist will be getting told!


    Holy shit! They really are barstewards. My one at the time told me it 'might make me a bit irritable'. Freaking understatement.


    LB if you want any papers on Levetiracetam and the side effects, particularly the likelihood of psychosis being more likely in women, I can get them to you for you to hit your neuro over the head with or stuff them so that it makes it very hard for them to sit down.


    I've collected a lot over the years for interest and for people like ourselves who haven't been told and have gone to epilepsy forums complaining about feeling depressed, having mood swings etc.
    One guy I knew was actually sectioned.


    Never mind not telling women about valproate (I was told back in the 80's and it has been on the PIL for a while but no one reads them and that is unsympathetic), no one told ANYONE about levetiracetam.


    There is sod all on Brivaracetam's PIL really, compared to most. I got most of the stuff i know from scientific papers.


    You really do have my deepest sympathies.


    If it kept you controlled but had shit side effects and they offer you brivaracetam - consider going for it. Although it does have the horrors of levetiracetam on its side effect list they are a lot further down and lets face it, most of them have much the same; you are effectively giving some drugs that also function as a mood stabilizer to people who very often have no mood disorder. Mental health are benefiting from levetiracetam.
    Brivaracetam didn't have the same ghastly side effects, although as I have said it had a lot of nigly side effects. I've heard of a good few people who are on it now, most of whom have girned about the same thing. One GP came of it because it emphasises the negative effects of alcohol so much, and she had to drink in her job :D :eek:I quit drinking.
    Then someone posted that the fix is a nice slow titration. You adapt more easily and dont notice the yuckies so much.
    Levetiracetam to Brivaracetam is also an easy switch so if it has been a good drug apart from the side effects. (actually the only neuro who has ever given a flying f*ck about side effects is my current one, all the rest 'Hello Mrs Gage, sit down, how many seizures have you had? OK, don't slam the door when you leave, maybe see you in 12 months, depending on the waiting list, I mean it's not like you are refractory.')


    46 years, only ever met 2 neurologists I liked. Don't trust the bastards.

  • Never mind not telling women about valproate...


    Not telling them what?
    This was part of a long series/cocktail that some cackhanded gp dosed an ex of mine with, things were very strange for her so I'm curious.

  • The link I posted in as an afterthought and the Army one may be the best.


    My husband has been scored at genius level IQ. he lacks focus on anything that isn't mechanical/electronic/system related - usually broken, hard to describe I don't think like him. I just hand him broken stuff and he always gets it working again.

    I'm good at fixing things too :D


    The first link needs a login, but I don't think I've got the attention span for academic journals - even at uni I tended to skim read them. :S


    In terms of caffeine think I've already reached peak coffee :D

  • Not telling them what?
    This was part of a long series/cocktail that some cackhanded gp dosed an ex of mine with, things were very strange for her so I'm curious.


    https://www.theguardian.com/so…-40-years-ago-campaigners


    https://www.epilepsy.org.uk/news/news/epilim-and-pregnancy


    https://www.epilepsy.org.uk/ne…not-aware-risks-pregnancy


    https://www.gov.uk/drug-safety…normal-pregnancy-outcomes


    Check out the date


    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com….1002/tcm.1770010405/full


    This is old and indicates when they first knew, but it basically states the crux of the problem...


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/s…cle/pii/S036254867880003X


    The teratogenicity is dose-dependent. I have heard of mothers having children who are fine and the mums were on a monotherapy of Epilim. If you want to get pregnant doctors try to get you on one drug at the lowest tolerable dose to control you for epilepsy (a fair few of the drugs are actually teratogenic in some way as you can see from the paper - again it is dose dependent).
    Epilim at a high dose is, well...not advisable to get pregnant while you are taking it. A low dosage? Well I was chatting to a woman who had two kids on it at a low dose - both fine.


    It is also an excellent drug as a broad spectrum antiepileptic, it is used to treat bipolar and as a prophylactic for a migraine.


    Even the so-called safest drug can cause cleft palate at high levels and can cause issues regarding it's clearance specific to pregnancy.


    I don't know what made it 'strange' for your ex. All drugs have side effects. What was she on it for and was she on any others at the time. I don't suppose you remember her dosages?
    If you can define 'strange' that would help. I can tell you if it related to side effects. I was on Epilim for 20years and I've been on a fair few others, either alongside it or around it.

  • I've definitely lost the plot on a few occasions, seeing and hearing things is such fun! You should read some of the things I've written on here,
    Everyone must think I'm nuts!
    I can't thank people on here enough for the very dark times they've got me through,
    I don't think they realise what they have got me through and still continue to do.

  • I've definitely lost the plot on a few occasions, seeing and hearing things is such fun! You should read some of the things I've written on here,
    Everyone must think I'm nuts!
    I can't thank people on here enough for the very dark times they've got me through,


    I don't think they realise what they have got me through and still continue to do.


    You definitely aren't nuts - I sent the paper on related psychosis.


    Had some interesting conversations with our last dog Bill about suicide whilst on levetiracetam.


    It is one of the reasons that, whilst I know neurology/neuropharmacology is as much an art as it is a science, that I do question decisions.
    I spent over a year on a dosage of that drug high enough to elicit negative behavioral and psychological side effects, with the local GP and epilepsy nurse offering nothing but platitudes. No neurological cover was available and when it was the waiting list was too long. I was reasonably well controlled and not refractory or newly diagnosed.


    Trips to the doctor had a specific agenda - Options were given to the doctor -
    take me off this medication, there are others I tolerate well, check my notes.
    lower the dose back to the one in my records prior to this one that I was stable on as I have no idea why it was ever raised
    or get me a neurological referral
    - whichever option is most viable.


    I think at that time given the short staffing and the length of the queue the world and his wife was ringing for emergency appointments and unless you are refractory, have recently been rushed into A&E in status or are newly diagnosed even very very crap side effects don't seem to cut much ice in triage unless you have actually overdosed or slashed your wrists etc. due to the way the drug makes you feel.


    If you for the subjectively life-threatening, call a support line or rant about your problems on a forum - but for gods sake don't stop taking the medication or you might have....


    ....actually, never occurred to me... bollocks!

  • Nootropics are very interesting in the way it can affect and open neural pathways. Have been dabbing into some, I like my party at festi's and getting off it and dance etc, but for other reasons like focus, engaging brain when flagging etc as dont do doctors stuff and am lucky to be relatively sane and not needing things like prozac etc, I self medicate to keep life rolling and interesting. One I have got into that works well to give concentrated focus, alertness and feeling bright when needed is phenylethylamine, its the main active ingredient in good chocolate, along with thyabromine. a mix with caffiene and a bit of something like menthol to do away with the bitterness works really well, you dont get a hit off it as such, its like having a good strong dose of coffee without the coffee heart palps and anxiousness too much coffee can bring on, well, it does for me, but this mix is great, one of the best ways its works is the fuzziness the morning after doing MD and pills, it really brings you out and wakes you up without having a drug hit. Nootropics are a very clever bunch of animals that really can work for its intended purpose, the other one that works, cant quite remember the name, something like pacimillon.

  • The phenylethylamines - ever read 'The Doors of Perception'? :D


    Picamilon is a Russian drug. It was designed to treat learning disabilities and diseases and conditions involving neurological circulatory issues.
    It is a bond of GABA and niacin, niacin is the vasodilator that improves blood flow, whilst GABA provides a calming effect.
    Basically, it stops you going 'bunny in the headlights' with stress when you are trying to focus and facilitates an improved supply of 'fuel' for the brain.
    This is bearing in mind that it was meant for people who have some form of injury, disease or developmental condition.
    It has also been shown to NORMALISE dopamine uptake, which could aid memory and attention, but as i said this drug is for people who have some form of neurological issue - if your dopamine uptake and levels are already normal....

  • Ah picamillon, thats the one, wasnt picamillon used or in use for treating alcoholism, am sure it was in trials for that. I'm always glads to say my dopamine and seretonin uptake levels are spot on, well, after this years festi's and parties, it perfomed spectacularly, knowing what foods and tings to take in to replenish helps loads, extract of grape seed being one. high level vit c soluble tablets and avocado's work wonders for me. 100% chelated magnesium powder dissolved in water is wonderful as well.


    I'm trying to suss out why phenylethylamine is readily available as a solo product here in U.K but thyabromine on its own the other chocolate goodie is only available from the states, couldnt find if its prohibited, apparently body builders use thyabromine to get short sharp bursts of energy hit.

  • Yeah, Picamilon is used to treat circulatory problems in the brain brought on by alcoholism.


    Theobromine... or you could try Xantheose


    That might help you find it...


    it's another vasodilator, a homologue of caffeine, which is a vasoconstrictor.


  • Ah yes, Theobromine, I bow to your expert knowledge, my interest is just out of my own curiosity and interest, have you been or are you on a professional level, if not hats off.


    So thats why its big in the body building world as it open up the blood vessels, must make em piss a lot though, would be nice cuts in coke compared to the shit they put in it, although caffeine is one of the better cuts thats used on better stuff, better coke sometimes makes one piss a lot, I have wondered if it is theobromine, there are really bitter aftertastes in some so could well be, better than the weird anologues of amphetimine found in a lot of it that stops you sleeping for hours, dont bother with that now, but the nootropics pricked me ears up as some can be said to be better than shit coke, I've got a phenylethylamine/caffeine mix with a bit of menthol to mask the bitterness, works a treat when fuzzy after a festi or if tired and run down a bit but need to keep plodding on with your day and if wanted it for that, there is a nice lift to it, it lifts you up more than buzz, feeling a lift makes you feel better and heading towards the natural happy high, its responsible self medication I suppose.


    I have read doors of perception long while ago, dont recall reference to phenylethylamine.

  • Post by Daisysmum ().

    The post was deleted, no further information is available.